The Evidence For Jesus' Existence is Overwhelming

reply to post by JaxonRoberts


Obviously you may not have read it carefully enough ..
Most of those tribes were ungoldy idol worshippers and every ungodly deed was done under the sun by them .
The Lord said if they allow you to go through it will go well with them..if they dont allow them through then thats what they had to do to get through .
It was more than likely Gods way of trying to stop what would happen before the flood (Horrible wickedness in all the earth) ......
Go back and reread the OT I think you missed some things .

There was also children of the fallen ones who were NOT good decent folk .
They would eat you alive had you asked to walk through their land .
What choice did they have then ?

And if the children of Israel had kept the laws of God and done them ..they more than likely would have not had it so rough either .

I mean sheeshh ...man cannot even keep the first commandment .
To love the Lord God with all their heart soul and mind ..And love their neighbor as their self .The easiest of commandments would have saved them lots of troubles .....

Morningstar
The children of Israel saw God do MANY MIRACLES and even heard him speak .
It didnt change them .They went on complaining and building their idols unto other gods etc etc ....
The Jews saw the miracles that Christ did and yet they did not believe either .
Their hearts were hardened ..Have you ever considered that may be why you wont believe now ?

Judas walked with Jesus and still he sold him out and then could not even find room for repentence ...
It may be a pride issue ....with mankind ...which is why they dont even really want to believe anyway ..He is a threat to their egos ..
And men do not think they need anyone ..especially not God .

But you know and I know when the chit hits the fans in our lives and we have made a mess of things .and we have a child sick and dieing or whatever the circumstance is ....we say a PRAYER .....God is the one we call ..He helps us through then wham he is just forgotten about again until we need him again .
Dont you think he gets tired of being used by man as just someone to call when they need help ?
Someday when chit hits the fan and you call out to him just for his help (not wanting anything else ) he just may not come and help ....

I know if I had friends like that I sure would not believe they were my friends ...

Somehow God gets all the blame for everything man does ..And everything man brings on himself ...
Someday you will see and be so ashamed of yourself for that ...

I dont blame God for anything ..and let me tell you there was alot that happened to me (that was beyond my control) ...I never thought he was a big mean ogre and he was unfair and hateful ...and I was raped and molested and beaten and sheeshhs a bunch of stuff even happened when I was just a child..God never got the blame ...never ....It was MAN who did that to me ..men who could not really have believed in GOD or they would not have been able to do those things to me ...They would have feared before him and not been able to commit such unspeakable acts .

Same goes for those people in the OT ...they did not serve God nor were they good decent people or they would not have been so bad that God had to wipe them out .He doesnt just wipe out people for no reason .
DO YOU ?


Men were created in the image of God and men have sure corrupted that image and should be ashamed of themselves ......may God have mercy on them all .





[edit on 18-9-2008 by Simplynoone]

reply to post by jakyll


Oh, I also wanted to add. Just like with the flood where people were warned before the judgment or the Jews who were warned before receiving a judgment (like with the Babylonian captivity), Jesus ALSO warned of destruction before it came (the destruction of the temple and the second dispersal of the Jews). Then history proves this happened shortly thereafter. Both Testaments warned of judgments that came to pass after the warning was rejected. So to me it is definitely the same God. Anyone who claims to have read the Bible from cover to cover but who is not aware of such things wasn't paying attention.

[edit on 9/18/2008 by AshleyD]

Originally posted by JaxonRoberts
reply to post by realshanti

 

I did not miss it, I dismissed it, as the lineage in Genesis is laughable at best, unless we are de-evolving as a species. It still does not justify genocide, nor does it disprove my point as to the difference between the Gods of the OT and NT.

"Nothing new under the sun" including your dismissal - genocide?? -Though they did make war for conquest of habitat - the Israelites never did follow God's instruction to the letter... By the time you get to Judges there is one tragedy after another befalling Israel - eventually David cuts a deal with the Jebusites (well known for their skill in warfare) for the erection of an altar- who could hardly have condoned such a thing had they been genocided as you report...context, again. Some scholars conclude the Jebusites are the same people as the Amorites and Hittites...here's some info on them -

One of the nations that occupied Palestine at the time of the invasion of the Israelites. In the list of the sons of Canaan, the Jebusite occupies the third place, between Heth and the Amorite (Gen. x. 15, 16; I Chron. i. 13, 14). This is also its position in Num. xiii. 29; in Josh. xi. 3, however, the Jebusite is mentioned between the Perizzite and the Hivite. On the other hand, in the oft-repeated enumeration of the tribes that occupied the land of Canaan, the Jebusite comes always at the end (Gen. xv. 21; Ex. iii. 8).

The Jebusites, stated to have dwelt in the mountains (Num. xiii. 29; Josh. xi. 3), were a warlike people. At the time of Joshua's invasion the capital of the Jebusites was Jerusalem, called also "Jebus" (Judges xix. 10, 11; II Sam. v. 6), whose king Adoni-zedek organized a confederacy against Joshua. Adoni-zedek was defeated at Beth-horon, and he himself was slaughtered at Makkedah (Josh. x. 1-27); but the Jebusites could not be driven from their mountainous position, and they dwelt at Jerusalem with the children of Judah and Benjamin (Josh. xv. 63; Judges i. 21).

The Jebusites contested David's entrance into Jerusalem (II Sam. v. 6-8). Later a notable Jebusite, Araunah, or Ornan, sold his thrashing-floor to David for the erection of an altar (II Sam. xxiv. 18-24; I Chron. xxi. 18-25). The Jebusites as well as the other tribes that had not been exterminated were reduced to serfdom by Solomon (I Kings ix. 20, 21). In the expression of Zechariah," and Ekron will be as a Jebusite" (Zech. ix. 7), "Jebusite" must be taken to mean "Jerusalemite."E. G. H. M. Sel.

—In Rabbinical Literature: The Jebusites, who are identical with the Hittites, derived their name from the city of Jebus, the ancient Jerusalem, which they inhabited. Within their territory lay the cave of Machpelah, which Abraham wished to buy. But they said to him: "We know that God will give this country to your descendants. Now, if you will make a covenant with us that Israel will not take the city of Jebus against the will of its inhabitants, we will cede to you the cave and will give you a bill of sale." Abraham, who was very anxious to obtain this holy burial-place, thereupon made a covenant with the Jebusites, who engraved its contents on bronze. When the people of Israel came into the promised land they could not conquer Jebus (comp. Judges i. 21) because the bronze figures, with Abraham's covenant engraved thereon, were standing in the center of the city.

The same was the case later with King David, to whom the Jebusites said: "You can not enter the city of Jebus until you have destroyed the bronze figures on which Abraham's covenant with our ancestors is engraved." David thereupon promised a captaincy to the person who should destroy the figures; and Joab secured the prize (comp. II Sam. v. 6; I Chron. xi. 6). David then took the city of Jebus from its owners; the right of appeal to the covenant with Abraham had been forfeited by them through the war they had waged against Joshua; and after the figures themselves had been destroyed, David had not to fear even that the people would reproach him with having broken the covenant. Nevertheless he paid the inhabitants in coin the full value of the city (comp. II Sam. xxiv. 24; I Chron. xxi. 25), collecting the money from all the tribes of Israel; so that the Holy City became their common property (Pirḳe R. El. xxxvi.; comp. David Luria's notes in his commentary ad loc.; on the money paid for Jerusalem, comp. Midr. Shemu'el xxxii., beginning; Sifre, Num. 42; Zeb. 16b).

According to a midrash quoted by Rashi on II Sam. v. 6, the Jebusites had in their city two figures—one of a blind person, representing Isaac, and one of a lame person, representing Jacob—and these figures had in their mouths the words of the covenant made between Abraham and the Jebusites.

There is always more to the story than our agendas sometimes allow us to perceive.....

If thats off the topic of OT versus NT apologies but though some might find this bit interesting...

reply to post by Simplynoone


First of all, that is all stories that still depend on the myth of gods being true before they can even be true. You cannot stand on a ledge you yourself are holding up.

Second of all, they are still, just stories. Were you there? Did you witness people witness true miracles and then go about their business?

Third, to judge me based on the fables you were taught about others is no less judgemental than any other reason it has been done. I am my own man and how I react to a miracle cannot be determined by anyone else's actions or are you claiming that I do not have free will?

Are all of you so judgemental?

Did all of you miss the part about that being God's job and specifically NOT yours?

Let me ask again, do you truly believe there is no free will and I could not make up my own mind about how I might react?

Originally posted by Simplynoone



Men were created in the image of God and men have sure corrupted that image and should be ashamed of themselves ......may God have mercy on them all .





[edit on 18-9-2008 by Simplynoone]

How could you ever be so sure of the image you have? It was given to you by man was it not?

My point was that no matter what took place right before your eyes no matter what miracle you saw or heard about you would more than likely still disregard it as coincidence or something .
Go ahead and use the judge card ...that is always the defense of nonbelievers ..oh and guess what ...that is in the bible that you dont believe in so you need to dump that saying too ..doncha think ?Lets no use what you dont believe in (The bibles sayings) as a sword to spar back with ok ? That is being a hypocrite too isnt it ?

YOU POSTED
[It is interesting how so many of you can assume and judge soooo well. You all know what all people who are not like you will do. How do you know how open minded I am? How do you know that it would not take just one simple real thing to sway me and then you would have helped bring another soul to God? Well, I guess you never will because instead of even trying, you just dismiss me outright and toss a cheap judgemental shot and drive on by. How very Christian of you. And yo got three stars for tossing me away like so much garbage. How very Christian of them.

I would be delighted in proof of Jesus or anything else that would prove to me there was this God. Nothing would bring me to my knees faster and I would follow every rule, every tiny little thing he wanted me to. I would start with not judging others, since he did have some thoughts on that, didnt he?]

If this was true you would be able to see miracles in our everyday lives and the lives of others ..and that would be enough to convince you .....you choose not to see them as miracles ...but as normal everyday events and coincidences etc .....or maybe you just see the bad in our world and miss all of the things that are beyond belief ...Like a child who comes out unharmed from a horrific accident where everyone is killed but that one precious child ....or that person whos house is the only one left standing intact after a fire ripped every house in sight .....etc etc .............

I have seen so many things that I consider miracles that it was enough to convince me and most of the people who know me .....I dont understand why people would not believe after taking a look around with eyes wide open ....You cannot see anything when your eyes are closed .......

reply to post by Simplynoone


Then what you are saying is that God gave the Israelites permission to break one of the commandment before the ink was even dry, Thou Shalt Not Kill!

We all know that Kill means to not MURDER....
Do you consider our troops in Iraq as murderers?
Do you consider the people who put to death those on death row as murderers?
Do you consider policemen who have to kill when being shot at as murderers ?

I personally would never under any circumstance take anyone elses life ..I had 2 husbands who beat me for nothing and held a gun to my head ..I did not even fight back ...(I would rather die than hurt anyone) I know I am a pacifist .
But I have to say I do agree with it in war time as long as the wars are just .
I also think maybe sometimes it is necessary in a death row sentencing (In some cases)
I dont consider the war in Iraq just but I dont consider our troops as murderers.


Jax ...I cannot even try to tell you why God did what he did in those days .
Because really I dont understand alot of it ..But I will give my Lord the benefit of the doubt that he knows what he is doing and why ..I dont see a whole picture as he does ..so who am I to question his motives when I dont have an understanding of what was really taking place at that time I wasnt there and neither was you ...And we dont have a clue yet to the whole picture of why it all had to take place as it did ...



[edit on 18-9-2008 by Simplynoone]

reply to post by JaxonRoberts


In their Torah, the death penalty is acceptable as well as killing in self defense. After looking at the accounts, it definitely looks like what took place was in self defense.

reply to post by Simplynoone


To defend oneself is not murder, but to kill a whole tribe to take their land, you betcha!

Well Jax thats exactly what the white man did to the Indians when they took this land isnt it ?
We would not be here if they had not done what they did ..So there must have been a reason for it to have happened the way it did ...doncha think ?

Like I said we cannot possibly see the whole picture of why things happen the way they do .So how can we judge it if we dont have a clue as to the outcome (God does) ?


[edit on 18-9-2008 by Simplynoone]

reply to post by AshleyD


Just reread Exodus 34 again, and I don't see the self defense angle.

reply to post by JaxonRoberts


Yes, and please look at the corresponding accounts that mention exactly what those tribes were doing to the Jews. I discussed this on a thread several months ago- ironically about what we were talking about just above- about the two separated personalities (allegedly) of the OT and NT God. I'll see if I can find it.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I think I touch on it a bit in the following thread, too, several pages in (where it was pretty off topic) lol:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by AshleyD

In their Torah, the death penalty is acceptable as well as killing in self defense. After looking at the accounts, it definitely looks like what took place was in self defense.

War is Hell. But what about killing women and children? What about killing captives after the battle is over? Would that still be considered self defense?

reply to post by MorningStar8741

Well, I guess you never will because instead of even trying, you just dismiss me outright and toss a cheap judgemental shot and drive on by. How very Christian of you.

I do apologize! Your previous "tangible" reference was the clincher for me and perhaps sent out too strong of a signal that you had arrived at the table, already convinced that there's no tangible evidence. Tangible evidence, in its current config, is very discriminatory and tied in lock step with popular opinion. It's often contingent on the mindset, current mood, and life experiences, of the individual.

For example, if a friend of yours tells you one day that he saw an UFO, you might ask him a few questions and draw some kind of conclusion from the data he gives you. If there was detailed description, even more believable. if he'd kept a diary and had seen more ufos, even more believable? the more it approaches empirical evidence, the better, yes? sadly, that's not how it works on some topics. god is one of those and ufos are another, which receive almost identical treatment - the infinitely receeding evidentary horizon

Comment removed. I like Undo's answer better and it's more thorough.

[edit on 9/19/2008 by AshleyD]

Originally posted by undo
the infinitely receding evidentiary horizon

I'm totally stealing that saying from you- I love it. So very true! So many times I've been told, 'just give me this and I will accept it!' And it's like, oh- here it is right here. Oh, well what about that? Um- right here. Oh ok. But I bet you can't explain THIS! Sure- this is what you are looking for. No, no.... I need something else. Gah! lol Anyways, I love how you describe it.

Originally posted by JaxonRoberts
reply to post by Simplynoone

 

To defend oneself is not murder, but to kill a whole tribe to take their land, you betcha!

there were nephilim (human hybrids) in the earth in those days and also after, when the angels (alien species) came down to the earth, saw the female humans and thought they would make a viable extension for their species on this planet. so they abducted all that they chose, impregnated them and created a hybrid race of nephilim rulers, who would rule the planet in the name of their progenitors, and enslave the populace for the purposes of mining the earth's resources.

the nephilim were busy, however, as in the case of Gilgamesh, the nephilim king of Uruk (they just found his city). he was a powerful and tyrannical ruler. the women in his kingdom, were violated by him, many on the night before their weddings, so that their first born were hybrids as well.

soon there were many many hybrids. wars broke out. big wars. planet devastating wars. and the human slave population began to die off, as did the flora and fauna of the planet. the ecology of earth was in a shambles. with food sources dwindling, the hybrids took to eating the remaining humans as food.

here we see an intervention, in the form of the flood sequence.
2 things happened at this point

the angels who had created the nephilim hybrids, saved the nephilim king of sumer (which was a big no-no!)

the creator of the human race, saved the remaining humans.

later, because the nephilim king of sumer had been rescued, the hybrids began to expand again. this time into the lands of canaan and abroad where the israelites encountered them.

the big claim to fame the israelites have is that they were human beings. their task was to deliver human DNA intact, to the advent of the messiah, which they did.

reply to post by AshleyD


i got it myself from a series of statements made about dealing with the ufo question. i can't remember the name of it but boy, it reads like a guide to the skeptical mind. there is literally no amount of evidence that would
assuage the hard core skeptic.