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FAA or 84RADES data falsified, or both.

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posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 08:55 PM
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Originally posted by Boone 870
That sure shoots down his "vectored after takeoff" theory. It looks like Reheat and pale were both right when they said it was a departure instruction and not a vector.


Please quote directly where Cap'n Bob claimed "vectored after takeoff" as your quotes suggest.

Im sure many are still also waiting for you to source "meandering".

Im sure many also notice you never conceded the fact Camp Springs wasnt assigned and instead chose to attack the source.




I'm starting to understand why Rob rarely offers opinions. They always come back and bite him in the butt.



Im starting to understand why those who makes excuses for the 9/11 Official Story never put their names to their claims, nor can be verified, refuse debate (yet do just that daily from behind their screens), refuse to confront Arlington Witnesses when given the opporitunity on a silver platter, etc etc.


Reheat, I saw your post before i replied here, so i'll reply here. You're lost. Try to stick to topic and not attack professional sources through the "messenger boy" (your claim, again a strawman), when you refuse to debate them personally.




posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 08:59 PM
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Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by AJ_Frost
 



What does the 1333 mean in the lower right of the ATC Strip?

Answer: Wheels Off time


Errmmmm....you're a pilot, or aren't you?

I've never heard 'wheels off'....it's always been "Wheels Up"


Bureau Of Transportation Statistics and many others within aviation disagree with you.

Figure out how to spell Jeppesen yet?




posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 09:08 PM
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Hay AJ, I have a question directly related to this topic. The reason for your beliefs are based on "professional authority" or so you indicate.

Your "professional authority" seems to be Cap'n King Air of pffft. If he is so "professional" why does he not have an Airline Transport Pilot Rating (ATP)? Why is he not employed by a major airline? Have you bought all of his excuses?

He refers to a long list of names, but none of them ever say anything or appear in print. Does he really have their support or is all of that "hot air"?

If you have any evidence other than an "appeal to authority" or stuff that has been shown to be in gross error, I wish you'd present it now. Time is wasting and any uncommitted lurkers are getting anxious. So, out with it? Show your stuff.

Mod Note: General ATS Discussion Etiquette – Please Review This Link.


[edit on 5-6-2009 by Gemwolf]



posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 09:08 PM
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reply to post by AJ_Frost
 



Figure out how to spell Jeppesen yet?


Ah hah!! Knew it, another formerly banned, new-name coming around to play some more, it would seem???

Oh, your little Google linky was cute.

Yah...I know full well what OOOI is. Armchair wannabe pilots, sitting there and googling all day long are most amusing, at times.

Know what an ACARS is? Or, a 'cycle'? Know anything about airline operations??? Real ATC procedures, and how we (the pilots) actually use it?

Thought so.

Mod Edit: Please focus on the topic and not on the member.

[edit on 5-6-2009 by Gemwolf]



posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 09:18 PM
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reply to post by AJ_Frost
 


Please quote directly where Cap'n Bob claimed "vectored after takeoff" as your quotes suggest.


I provided the link earlier in this thread.

What are your thoughts on VM306? The TR 050 "vector" never happened, yet you still defend a position that has been proven wrong.

One other thing, the 9:33 wheels up/off time is irrelevant. Andrew's local control received departure clearance for Gofer 06, from Washington Departure, at 9:28:35. The ground stop was not issued until 9:29 00 at the earliest. I guess you're going to have to add the personnel at Andrews Tower and Washington Departure to the list of conspirators.


09:28:35: (Tape 7982 B1B, Arrival Radar) Gopher 06, released Link



posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 09:22 PM
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Originally posted by Reheat
Hay AJ, I have a question directly related to this topic. The reason for your beliefs are based on "professional authority" or so you indicate.


Actually, its off topic, but i have time to reply.

Please quote specifically my "beliefs" as stated "i believe".


Your "professional authority" seems to be Cap'n King Air of pffft. If he is so "professional" why does he not have an Airline Transport Pilot Rating (ATP)?


Have you asked him? (oh, thats right, you refuse to debate/confront anyone from P4T)


Why is he not employed by a major airline? Have you bought all of his excuses?


How do you know he isnt? You also made claims Cap'n Bob will never fly again or hold a medical. Seems faa.gov has proven you wrong once again.

Futhermore, how does just a simple King Air pilot (as you assert) attract so many aviation professionals, typed in various Heavy Jets, Laguardia ATC, Military Fighter Pilots who worked at the Pentagon.. .etc?

Are they all tricked by this "Cap'n King Air"? Are they all "delusional"?

Again, who supports you? Your qualifications? Can they be verified?


He refers to a long list of names, but none of them ever say anything or appear in print.


Check the various interviews posted front page at Pilots For 9/11 Truth, various confrences and patriotsquestion911.com...

Although many have the courage to sign their name to a website only to be attacked by people like you, not everyone wants to be the tip of the spear.



Show your stuff.


The "stuff" has been shown, you just need to read it i suppose.

[edit on 4-6-2009 by AJ_Frost]



posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 09:24 PM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 09:40 PM
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Hey AJ, your leader posted this over at his board:


The first waypoit takes route of flight further north, further confirming the fact a south of DCA vector was highly unlikely.


You should ask him why a "south of DCA vector" would be highly unlikely if they were still using it in 2008.


GVE/MOL/LDN/IAD/CSN/
JERES/BUFFR/AML
118.95 / 257.2
Left turn heading 270, maintain 3,000, expect vectors (assigned route/fix), expect (filed altitude) 10 minutes after departure..

... NOTE: Aircraft assigned a 270 heading shall be instructed by Tower to complete the turn within 3 DME of ADW VORTAC and cross the 180 radial of DCA VOR or a point 8 DME west of ADW VORTAC at 3,000 feet.


www.ntsb.gov...



posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 09:43 PM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 09:58 PM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 09:58 PM
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reply to post by AJ_Frost
 


Source, post #23.

Meander is the word I used to describe his position on the subject.

You haven't commented on VM 306...



posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 10:11 PM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 10:25 PM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 10:30 PM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 10:40 PM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 10:45 PM
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Originally posted by Reheat
Well, let's organize a "pity party" for those who are unable to support their delusions that the 84th RADES data is fake.



"....the altitude estimates from these returns are subject to potentially large errors, which introduces significant uncertainty into the performance calculations...."

Might want to familiarize yourself with the definition of precedent Reheat. But then again, you and perhaps one or two others (who also refuse to put their names to their claims), feel the NTSB is wrong on many levels. Its no surprise you (and the others) refuse to debate P4T but spend your days and nights obsessing over them.

[edit on 4-6-2009 by AJ_Frost]



posted on Jun, 5 2009 @ 01:33 AM
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Please remain on topic and away from personal insults to avoid being Posting Banned.



Any inappropriate comments, insults, topic derailment, or trolling will result in immediate posting ban or account termination.
...
When participating with the members of AboveTopSecret.com, there are certain standards of conduct and cooperation that are not simply expected, they are demanded.
www.abovetopsecret.com...



posted on Jun, 5 2009 @ 06:41 AM
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Originally posted by trebor451
How did Gopher06 get to Shanksville if not able to transition NY Airspace?

Answer:?

By not flying through or towards NY airspace. That would mean a Camp Springs 1 departure, west (270) until it cleared DC airspace, then a northwest vector to join J-518.

First RADES data hit on Gopher 06 was 0932:26 at the departure end of runway 01. Backing that up for a heavy C-130 departure roll to wheels-off would make brakes off at approximately 0928 or 29.

As far as getting to Shanksville, J-518, once it is outbound/westbound from BUFFR, is not in NY airspace, but I wouldn't expect a non-pilot to know that.

Find a H-12 IFR Enroute High Altitude Chart and look up where BUFFR is and where J-518 westbound heads. The southwest corner of ZNY is BUFFR. Everything west of that point is ZOB, Cleveland ARTCC.



Still waiting for an acknowledgment from the hoi polloi that a clearance to the north, headed to BUFFR, would not be granted under the circumstances of the day.


9:06: The FAA bans takeoffs of all flights bound to or through the airspace of New York Center from airports in that Center and the three adjacent Centers — Boston, Cleveland, and Washington. This is referred to as a First Tier groundstop and covers the Northeast from North Carolina north and as far west as eastern Michigan.

9:08: The FAA bans all takeoffs nationwide for flights going to or through New York Center airspace.


Source

As a reminder...BUFFR marks the southwest boundary of ZNY, New York Center.

As a reminder...J-518 westbound from BUFFR never transits NY airspace.

As a reminder...Shanksville is located in ZOB, or Cleveland airspace.

Just looking to make sure the uneducated are thusly educated.

[edit on 5-6-2009 by trebor451]



posted on Jun, 5 2009 @ 09:57 AM
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reply to post by AJ_Frost
 


It is not in dispute that a left turn occured, it is just a matter of when. ANC witnesses as filmed on location by CIT, statements from the pilot, combined with morning rush hour arriving into DCA all point to a later turn.

Offical Govt Story believers are attempting to convince others the turn occured earlier, crossing morning traffic into DCA, have no witnesses to the effect, and O'Brien himself never claimed to have crossed south of DCA.


As promised earlier, I looked up Gofer06's radar returns from ADW's radar and this is what I came up with:



Full Size Image

The southernmost radar return in the image is actually several radar returns. GOFER06 was sitting in position on the numbers for one minute and four seconds before any movement turned up on radar at 9:32:09. The rest should explain itself.

Just to recap, we have the C-130 making a left-hand turn one minute and thirty-five seconds after receiving clearance from Tower and then one minute and sixteen seconds according to radar.

The RADES data lines up well with the recordings and FAA data. Do you have any doubts left, AJ?

[edit on 5-6-2009 by Boone 870]

Mod Edit: Added Image Link.

[edit on 5/6/2009 by Mirthful Me]



posted on Jun, 5 2009 @ 10:28 AM
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post by AJ_Frost
 

It is not in dispute that a left turn occured, it is just a matter of when. ANC witnesses as filmed on location by CIT, statements from the pilot, combined with morning rush hour arriving into DCA all point to a later turn.

Offical Govt Story believers are attempting to convince others the turn occured earlier, crossing morning traffic into DCA, have no witnesses to the effect, and O'Brien himself never claimed to have crossed south of DCA.


Mr Frost,

Regarding this "morning rush hour traffic" and the C-130 "...crossing morning traffic into DCA..."

Can you give us an estimated altitude differential between a Camp Springs 1 departing aircraft at the ADW 270/9 and an ILS-RWY 1 approach to DCA at the final approach fix (OXXON, the DCA 187/5.6)?

In other words, what would the departing ADW aircraft's altitude be and what would the arriving DCA aircraft altitude be? You can use the published Camp Springs 1 departure as well as whatever other documented sources you would like to use.

Next, if you wouldn't mind, what is the missed approach altitude for DCA's ILS RWY 1 approach?

Next, what is the first hard altitude restriction on the Camp Springs 1 departure and where is it?

When all that is done, could you explain why there would be a conflict, in any way, shape or form, between an departing ADW a/c and DCA arriving aircraft?

Thanks.

Just a rough estimate would do. You don't have to be exact.


[edit on 5-6-2009 by trebor451]



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