FAA or 84RADES data falsified, or both., page 3

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reply posted on 4-6-2009 @ 01:21 PM by AJ_Frost

Originally posted by Boone 870
reply to post by Reheat

Reheat, have you seen this LOA between PCT and Andrews Tower?

Source Link broken.

The "professionals" dismissed the LOA because it is dated June 2008,

Source?

(Tape 7982 CIA, Ground Control) Word 31 verifies a turn to 270
at 3 DME after take off with, ironically, the following statement:
"Yeah, I don't want to get shot at today." [Note: A clear reference
to the requirement to stay out of P56 air space.]
Source

Source not sourced. Appears to be pdf's anyone can write and publish.

Your pilotsfor911truth.org forum source also says nothing about "meandering" claims made by "professionals" as you claimed.

[edit on 4-6-2009 by AJ_Frost]

reply posted on 4-6-2009 @ 02:19 PM by Boone 870

reply to post by AJ_Frost

Source Link broken.

www.ntsb.gov...
or you can Google "DCA Andrews tower letter of agreement."

Source?

Post 28 in this thread.

Source not sourced. Appears to be pdf's anyone can write and publish.

It appears that the document came from History Commons. If you suspect fraud, I recommend contacting someone in law-enforcement or perhaps your congressman.

reply posted on 4-6-2009 @ 04:05 PM by AJ_Frost

Originally posted by Boone 870
reply to post by AJ_Frost

Source Link broken.
www.ntsb.gov...
or you can Google "DCA Andrews tower letter of agreement."

Thank you. 2008 date noted.

Source?
Post 28 in this thread.

Where does it say "dMole" is a "professional pilot" as you claimed?

Source not sourced. Appears to be pdf's anyone can write and publish.

It appears that the document came from History Commons. If you suspect fraud, I recommend contacting someone in law-enforcement or perhaps your congressman.

www.historycommons.org...

Why would i contact law enforcement or congress on an independent website who researches 9/11? If posting inaccurate information on a website were against the law, JREF (in particular, the Chip Implant hoax in which they defrauded their own with an authentic looking document, stamp and all) and many other sites who support the 9/11 Official Story would be getting life.

I have read many of your posts Boone. Your sources are lacking as usual as compared to your claims.

[edit on 4-6-2009 by AJ_Frost]

reply posted on 4-6-2009 @ 04:16 PM by Boone 870

reply to post by AJ_Frost

Your pilotsfor911truth.org forum source also says nothing about "meandering" claims made by "professionals" as you claimed.

Instead of spending hours digging up an old post I'll just use this one .

Rob Balsamo referring to the same flight strip I posted earlier:

Notice the "TL270" on the strip. That is a heading vector. Why would ATC note a heading vector if the Camp Springs One was assigned for departure and the Camp Springs already calls for 270 heading? Answer is, they wouldnt, they would only note a vector if assigned a departure which calls for vectors, The Morningside One.

So, lets recap.

ANC witnesses place the C-130 approaching from the NW. O'Brien claims he passed "south of the mall" (not south of DCA), and the ATC strip notes a vector.

Camp Springs was not assigned to Gopher06 (for obvious reason explained ad nauseum on this forum, eg. morning rush hour into DCA). The govt story and those who make excuse for it have imploded once again. No wonder they wish to remain anonymous and create new internet userID's when their old ones are fully discredited.

Note the good Cap'n claims that GOFER 06 was assigned MORNINGSIDE ONE and not CAMP SPRINGS ONE because TL 270 was written on the strip and that would indicate a vector after departure.

GOFER 06 was not vectored to 270°. The only instructions he received from Andrews or DCA was to "turn left, contact Washington Departure." He was assigned Camp Springs One before departure and was not allowed to meander through Class B airspace at his discretion.

Andrews Air Force Base Local Control:
aal77.com...

Washington Departure TYSON sector:
aal77.com...

Same goes for WORD 31, "TL 270" was written on its flight strip and we know that he was assigned a heading of 270° before departure. His only heading instructions after departure was to "turn left, contact Washington departure."

Andrews Air Force Base Local Control:
aal77.com...

Flight Progress Strips

reply posted on 4-6-2009 @ 04:30 PM by AJ_Frost

Originally posted by Boone 870
He was assigned Camp Springs One before departure

Wrong. Gopher06 was not assigned the Camp Springs One. It is not on the strip. Why would ATC omit a SID on the strip, but include a STAR?

If Gopher06 were assigned Camp Springs SID (Standard Departure), it would be noted as such, just as is the STAR EAU5 (Standard Arrival) into MSP.

"TL270" is a vector and was noted as such in the audio when told to "TL" (turn left).

ATC doesnt assign a "TL270" if the SID already calls for such a turn.

and was not allowed to meander through Class B airspace at his discretion.

Strawman.

No one claimed he was "allowed to meander" and you still have yet to provide a direct quote.

[edit on 4-6-2009 by AJ_Frost]

reply posted on 4-6-2009 @ 04:52 PM by Boone 870

reply to post by AJ_Frost

If Gopher06 were assigned Camp Springs SID (Standard Departure), it would be noted as such, just as is the STAR EAU5 (Standard Arrival) into MSP.

Really??? Then the same would apply for MORNINGSIDE ONE.

Can you please point out where the Morningside SID is on the flight strip? I must've missed it.

Also, can you give me a timestamp in the recording where GOFER 06 is vectored to 270°? I must've missed that one too.

reply posted on 4-6-2009 @ 05:14 PM by AJ_Frost

Let me see if i can wrap this up in a nice bow for everyone.

The 9/11 Official Story believers have been claiming as fact for ages that Gopher06 was assigned the Camp Springs One, personally attacking pilots who fly departures out of major hubs on a daily basis.

Skeptics of the 9/11 Official Story, based on ANC witness statements, statements of the pilot himself, and morning rush hour traffic into DCA felt The Morningside One was the more logical assignment, but never claimed to have proof nor claim it was fact.

Now that the ATC strip has been analyzed, the Official Govt Story believers have been proven wrong once again. Camp Springs was not assigned. And it appears neither was Morningside One.

It is not in dispute that a left turn occured, it is just a matter of when. ANC witnesses as filmed on location by CIT, statements from the pilot, combined with morning rush hour arriving into DCA all point to a later turn.

Offical Govt Story believers are attempting to convince others the turn occured earlier, crossing morning traffic into DCA, have no witnesses to the effect, and O'Brien himself never claimed to have crossed south of DCA.

The following diagram has direct lines to destination (note: Gopher06 was seen in Shanksville). Which makes more sense to turn left 270, a later turn north of DCA? Or south of DCA crossing all that heavy traffic into DCA and crossing traffic on the downwind leg.

Direct Link To Diagram.

You decide.

Also, i have been unable to find any "professional pilots" claiming that Gopher06 was allowed to "meander" and Boone has been unable to provide a direct quote to such a claim. However, both the Official Story Beleivers and 9/11 Skeptic's flight paths are off route (meandering?) in Class B, to follow the unidentified eastbound aircraft.

[edit on 4-6-2009 by AJ_Frost]

reply posted on 4-6-2009 @ 06:39 PM by Boone 870

reply to post by AJ_Frost

Skeptics of the 9/11 Official Story, based on ANC witness statements, statements of the pilot himself, and morning rush hour traffic into DCA felt The Morningside One was the more logical assignment, but never claimed to have proof nor claim it was fact.

You're wrong.

Rob Balsamo:
Answer is, they wouldnt, they would only note a vector if assigned a departure which calls for vectors, The Morningside One.

No wiggle room there...

Now that the ATC strip has been analyzed, the Official Govt Story believers have been proven wrong once again. Camp Springs was not assigned. And it appears neither was Morningside One.

Now wait a minute, Rob Balsamo, the aviation "professional" disagrees with you. He said it was Morningside One.

Offical Govt Story believers are attempting to convince others the turn occured earlier, crossing morning traffic into DCA, have no witnesses to the effect, and O'Brien himself never claimed to have crossed south of DCA.

Lieut. Col. O'Brien acknowledged the left turn one minute and 35 seconds after Andrews cleared him for takeoff. I'll post the radar returns from Andrews a little later on and we can see how that works out.

I see you're familiar with Rob's theory/opinion, has he ever theorized as to why DCA would direct traffic out of Andrews differently on 9/11 as opposed to any other busy morning at Reagan?

Which makes more sense to turn left 270, a later turn north of DCA? Or south of DCA crossing all that heavy traffic into DCA and crossing traffic on the downwind leg.

It seems that the FAA may actually agree with you on something. They were considering different routing for air traffic out of Andrews while designing the PCT:

A more direct routing for ADW westbound departures would be established.

Link

reply posted on 4-6-2009 @ 07:16 PM by AJ_Frost

Originally posted by Boone 870
Now wait a minute, Rob Balsamo, the aviation "professional" disagrees with you. He said it was Morningside One.

Looks like ol' Cap'n Bob updated his original post to better reflect his opinon on the matter. Seems he knows others like to twist his words.

Answer is, they wouldnt, they would only note a vector if assigned a departure which calls for vectors, The Morningside One, or no departure at all.

Source

(Bold above mine)

It also appears Cap'n Bob took the liberty to update the original diagram adding the route to first waypoint.

Added first intersection/waypoint, according to the clearance, to above diagram...

The first waypoit takes route of flight further north, further confirming the fact a south of DCA vector was highly unlikely.

Source

I see you're familiar with Rob's theory/opinion, has he ever theorized as to why DCA would direct traffic out of Andrews differently on 9/11 as opposed to any other busy morning at Reagan?

A National Ground stop was never issued prior to a C-130 departing Andrews before 9/11 or after. Nor was an unidentified aircraft violating Class Bravo from the west after two towers were attacked in NYC on any other day.

Gotta love govt controlled data huh?

The 9/11 Official Story keeps falling apart at the seams.

reply posted on 4-6-2009 @ 07:34 PM by Reheat

Originally posted by AJ_Frost
It is not in dispute that a left turn occured, it is just a matter of when.

No, the when is not in question. He turned as soon as it was safe to do so after take-off, which is standard procedure and is verified by radar and an ATC radio transmission.

Originally posted by AJ_FrostANC witnesses as filmed on location by CIT, statements from the pilot, combined with morning rush hour arriving into DCA all point to a later turn.

No, they don't. The ATC Tapes, the Tribby Video, the Looney Photographs and other witnesses all establish the C-130 on it's known flight path as verified by the 84th RADES data. The statements of L/C O'brien support exactly what he did, which was take-off to the North turn to the West and pass by the South side of the Mall. He did not say he was immediate adjacent to the Mall, he said he passed South of it and that he had a beautiful view. If he passed immediately adjacent to it, he would not have even been able to see it anyway. People who are barely able to recognize a C-130 shouldn't be expressing opinions about the view from the cockpit.

Originally posted by AJ_Frost
Offical Govt Story believers are attempting to convince others the turn occured earlier, crossing morning traffic into DCA, have no witnesses to the effect, and O'Brien himself never claimed to have crossed south of DCA.

The turn did occur immediately after take-off in accordance with established procedure and as verified by radar. There is no question, there is no debate, there is no argument. It is established fact.

There is no problem with passing virtually directly over DCA or slightly South as there is altitude separation with arrivals. That's why there is a 3000' Minimum altitude specified on the Camp Springs Departure. There is a worse problem with being further to the North as that would DEFINITELY interfere with Departures on their climb out. People who fly Cessna's and King Air's into small airports don't have a grasp of these issues. They like to think BIG, but have minuscule deluded minds.

What occurred is PROVEN FACT, not the opinion of some deluded fool who has the audacity to call themselves a "professional".

ETA: Assigning a departure heading of 270 (not a vector) on a Morningside One Departure makes about as much sense as his 11.2 G math error or his "hockey stick" pull out of a dive.

Ask him why he's not here instead of sending a messenger boy? Oh, he's banned, just like he is on most every other site on the Internet under multiple socks!!!!

[edit on 4-6-2009 by Reheat]

[edit on 4-6-2009 by Reheat]

[edit on 4-6-2009 by Reheat]

reply posted on 4-6-2009 @ 07:56 PM by AJ_Frost

Originally posted by Reheat
No, the when is not in question. He turned as soon as it was safe to do so after take-off, which is standard procedure and is verified by radar and an ATC radio transmission.

Radar data obtained through a "back door" FOIA, initially denied by the FAA, and eventually processed by the recipient known for massive errors, combined with being in conflict with the numerous other pieces of evidence mentioned in this thread.

Still, its good to see you concede the fact that Camp Springs One was not assigned, even if indirectly conceding on your part.

What occurred is PROVEN FACT, not the opinion of some deluded fool who has the audacity to call themselves a "professional".

Seems the "deluded professional" has a lot of verified support (including LGA ATC) and the list continues to grow.

Where is your verified support? And if there is nothing to debate, why are you here doing just that, daily?

Forgive me for not replying to the rest of your unsourced claims as when you start to personally attack other professionals who put their names, faces and reputations on the line, and who can be verified as such, you automatically lose the argument.

[edit on 4-6-2009 by AJ_Frost]

reply posted on 4-6-2009 @ 08:07 PM by trebor451

Originally posted by AJ_Frost
It also appears Cap'n Bob took the liberty to update the original diagram adding the route to first waypoint.

The first waypoit takes route of flight further north, further confirming the fact a south of DCA vector was highly unlikely.

Question: What ARTCC does the way point BUFFR form one of the southern boundarys of?
Answer: New York, or ZNY (BUFFR 08, one of the high altitude sectors of Area A)

Question: When did ZNY shut down all flights, "arriving or transiting" their airspace?
Answer: 1308Z, or 0908 EST

Question: What time did Gopher 06 take off?
Answer: Approximately 0928 or 0929. When would they have received their clearance? Probably 5 minutes before that. New York Airspace, which would have included BUFFR, had been closed for approximately 15 minutes by then.

Question: Do you think perhaps that even if a northern SID out o fAndrews (i.e. Morningside 1) had been in the flight plan it would have still been given in clearance, even if the waypoint in question was in closed airspace?
Answer: ?

reply posted on 4-6-2009 @ 08:08 PM by Reheat

Originally posted by Boone 870
Now wait a minute, Rob Balsamo, the aviation "professional" disagrees with you. He said it was Morningside One.

Hey Boone, I'll bet Cap'n King Air wishes he had never heard of CIT when he has to invent this stuff to support their delusions. What do you think?

Did you see all of that stuff they posted about him on their Web Site before they deleted it?

This radar vector stuff when an aircraft is on the ground is new to me, do you know anything about that?

I think O'Hare and perhaps some other big airports have ground radar for use in inclement weather, but I don't think there is any at DCA or ADW.

[edit on 4-6-2009 by Reheat]

reply posted on 4-6-2009 @ 08:14 PM by AJ_Frost

Originally posted by trebor451
Question: What time did Gopher 06 take off?
Answer: Approximately 0928 or 0929.

What does the 1333 mean in the lower right of the ATC Strip?

Answer: Wheels Off time.

New York Airspace, which would have included BUFFR, had been closed for approximately 15 minutes by then.

How did Gopher06 get to Shanksville if not able to transition NY Airspace?

Answer:?

Where is the amended clearance if BUFFR was closed almost 30 mins prior to departure?

Answer: ?

Hows the weather down there in Pensacola?

Answer: ?

[edit on 4-6-2009 by AJ_Frost]

reply posted on 4-6-2009 @ 08:22 PM by Reheat

Originally posted by AJ_Frost
Seems the "deluded professional" has a lot of verified support (including LGA ATC) and the list continues to grow.

Did you really just "appeal to authority", why I can't believe it?

Originally posted by AJ_Frost
And if there is nothing to debate, why are you here doing just that, daily?

Good question. It's certainly not because anyone is worthwhile. I have long days and just use some spare time to set the record straight. Do you have anything to debate or is it just the same old tired already defeated stuff?

Originally posted by AJ_Frost
Forgive me for not replying to the rest of your unsourced claims as when you start to personally attack other professionals who put their names, faces and reputations on the line, and who can be verified as such, you automatically lose the argument.

Oh, am I corresponding with a GROUP? Gee, I didn't know I had a big audience. Who are all of that group and where are they? Hiding behind your monitor?

Can I have a peek?

[edit on 4-6-2009 by Reheat]

reply posted on 4-6-2009 @ 08:35 PM by AJ_Frost

reply posted on 4-6-2009 @ 08:42 PM by Boone 870

reply to post by AJ_Frost

Looks like ol' Cap'n Bob updated his original post to better reflect his opinon on the matter. Seems he knows others like to twist his words.

He's still wrong. Send him the link to the LOA I posted earlier so that he can see that aircraft departing to the West out of Andrews still use the Camp Springs One departure.

Have the good Cap'n look at the flight progress strips again. Specifically, VM306. The flight progress strip for this aircraft has "TR 050" written on it, but guess what... IT NEVER TOOK OFF!

That sure shoots down his "vectored after takeoff" theory. It looks like Reheat and pale were both right when they said it was a departure instruction and not a vector.

ADW flight progress strips

I'm starting to understand why Rob rarely offers opinions. They always come back and bite him in the butt.

reply posted on 4-6-2009 @ 08:46 PM by Reheat

reply posted on 4-6-2009 @ 08:53 PM by trebor451

Originally posted by AJ_Frost

Originally posted by trebor451
Question: What time did Gopher 06 take off?
Answer: Approximately 0928 or 0929.

What does the 1333 mean in the lower right of the ATC Strip?

Answer: Wheels Off time.

New York Airspace, which would have included BUFFR, had been closed for approximately 15 minutes by then.

How did Gopher06 get to Shanksville if not able to transition NY Airspace?

Answer:?

By not flying through or towards NY airspace. That would mean a Camp Springs 1 departure, west (270) until it cleared DC airspace, then a northwest vector to join J-518.

First RADES data hit on Gopher 06 was 0932:26 at the departure end of runway 01. Backing that up for a heavy C-130 departure roll to wheels-off would make brakes off at approximately 0928 or 29.

As far as getting to Shanksville, J-518, once it is outbound/westbound from BUFFR, is not in NY airspace, but I wouldn't expect a non-pilot to know that.

Find a H-12 IFR Enroute High Altitude Chart and look up where BUFFR is and where J-518 westbound heads. The southwest corner of ZNY is BUFFR. Everything west of that point is ZOB, Cleveland ARTCC.

Plus, most every pilot I know is aware a filed flight plan is "advisory only", depending on departure vectors and often the first waypoint or two of a filed plan are not used. As soon as we would check in with departure our next request would be INS direct to our destination. We'd usually get a "I can give you direct to *wherever the furthest point in my sector was*, request further clearance then".

Pensacola, according to Accuweather, is mostly clear and 79. I had to check, though, because I don't live there.

[edit on 4-6-2009 by trebor451]

reply posted on 4-6-2009 @ 08:53 PM by weedwhacker

reply to post by AJ_Frost

What does the 1333 mean in the lower right of the ATC Strip?

Answer: Wheels Off time

Errmmmm....you're a pilot, or aren't you?

I've never heard 'wheels off'....it's always been "Wheels Up"

It is also known as an EDCT. And....even with the 'Wheels Up' of 1333, there is often a five minute window for an earlier take-off clearance. Discretion of the Local controller...based on traffic.

Should ask actual controllers...don't want to spoil the fantasy, though.