atheists stick their head in the sand/ignore probability!

Originally posted by OldThinker
reply to post by shihulud

 

S, No problem, thanks for the transparency….’amber nectar’ huh? Sounds great !

OK, good question…here’s my research…

Source quoted below…www.greatcom.org...

“In the Gospel according to Matthew, ...

....I had never heard this question before…thanks for raising it….I’m going to tilt to my first reference, ok?

OT honored for the discussion...what did you think of Bono's piece?

Nice answer but all it does is prove that the bible has errors and therefore not the infallible word of god as many assume it to be.

So if the bible can contain errors of this caliber then what else has been made up or changed to enforce the viewpoint - another reason for my atheism.


Bono's piece? Didn't quite catch it - although Irish man! , catholicism!, I get to o much sectarianism where I live to take much interest in that kind of stuff (forgive me if I passed something interesting) but Bono should stick to singing and trying to save the world without entering into religious politics.

Hope you enjoyed your steak - bet it was tasty?

G

Originally posted by OldThinker
S, Here's another source I found...www.new-life.net...

Allow New Testament Citations of the Old Testament to be Less Than Exact Quotations. - Critics often point to variations in the NT's use of the OT Scriptures as a proof of error. They seem to forget that the OT was written in Hebrew, the NT in Greek. Translations from one language to another can and often do differ without being in error.

In addition, critics forget that every citation need not be an exact quotation. It was then (and still is today) a perfectly acceptable literary style to give the true essence of a statement without using precisely the exact words. The same meaning can be conveyed without using the exact same verbal expressions.

Sometimes the New Testament authors will cite only part of the OT text (Jesus did this in Luke 4:18-19, citing Isaiah 61:1-2). Sometimes the NT summarizes the OT text (Matthew 2:6). Others blend two texts into one (Matthew 27:9-10). Sometimes they change the speaker (compare Zechariah 12:10 with John 19:37). This was perfectly acceptable Jewish rabbinic practice. We must not insist that the NT writers have to stick to 21st century college rules for quotation (when they did not even know what 21st century college rules would be)!

Thoughts, sir?

OT

ps: potential answer here...www.christiancourier.com...

[edit on 17-9-2008 by OldThinker]

[edit on 17-9-2008 by OldThinker]

There is a big difference in translation variance between names so I really cannot be swayed into scribal error on this one (I am aware of the Jesus quote error as well). Mainly due to the supposed tradition of copyists being exact with oral tradition - remember there were very few literate people at the time and also as Greek and Hebrew/Aramaic were being spoke and well understood at that time. Hell the NT was written in Greek by Hebrew/Aramaic jews (supposedly - Matthew, Mark etc) so we can't really subscribe to the notion of such common error.

And of course we can't apply 21st C rules but if you look at this another way if the NT authors weren't exact in their portrayal of jesus and his life then why should we admit their 'testimony' at all.

All in all it still shows the the bible is not factually correct whatever way you choose to view it.

G

Originally posted by Lannock

EDIT: To Shihulud and noobfun: If you guys only take into account the "Jeremiah/Zechariah" FARCE that OT concocted and the FACT that the Christians give a total blind eye to the "NOAH" argument, you realise that you guys are wasting your time?

[edit on 18-9-2008 by Lannock]

Not at all, I am well aware of many of the contradictions in the bible, I'm like a dentist and pull them out one at a time LOL. Its not worth trying to bombard them!!!

NB where abouts in SA are you from? I was born in Heidelberg and lived in Grootvlie in my younger years.


G

Originally posted by moocowman

Originally posted by OldThinker
reply to post by JesusisTruth

 

Great posts my man!!! You spent a lot of time here...good job!!

Agree with most...

I would be irresponsible to not share my relationship with Jesus...I'm commanded to content for the faith and to love...check out John 13:34, 25---this is my life's anthem...it's on my signature below...

How will they know, ,unless someone tells them...and who will tell them, unless someone sends one to teach? paraphrase, I think Romans?

OT

Hey dude, how goes? got ur U2U, why doesn't U2U let me know I got mail? or if it does, what does it look like?


So, oldthinker dude, I have to respectfully ask - if you have a relationship with the Jesusgod, why do you need a bible.

It is common knowledge that the bible is full of errors and contradictions etc so why do you need something that is flawed when you have perfection to answer all your questions ?

Would you be kind enough to ask jesus some questions on behalf of other people ? This would surely save all the hassle debate and quarreling (even wars) by getting a straight answer instead of trying to make sense of a nonsensical book with questionable authorship.

Moocowman,

Some u2u help here…www.abovetopsecret.com...

Why do I need the Bible…that’s a good question…
(commercial) you know I struggle with where to refer you…but I remember a tape I had from a guy named RC Sproul…OT thought he was somewhat critical in his thinking…so I looked him up…and found he’s got an online video series….excuse the hair, but enjoy the message…
www.ligonier.org... …..it appears he’s got a number of like-related videos…

There’s a guy named Tony Campolo, if fact his greatest talk is to the left on my avatar…It’s Friday, but Sunday’s Coming…this message is most consistent with who I am…in a nutshell he proposes that JC meets EVERY NEED we humans have…such as the need for self esteem, love, service, etc…

I’d be interested in your take on it, ok? Here’s the link…www.tonycampolo.org...

Skeptics, if you want to know OT’s motive for all these posts…I would challenge, not really…invite…you to listen to Campolo….

Honored!!

OT out….

Bono's piece? Didn't quite catch it - although Irish man! , catholicism!, I get to o much sectarianism where I live to take much interest in that kind of stuff (forgive me if I passed something interesting) but Bono should stick to singing and trying to save the world without entering into religious politics.

Hope you enjoyed your steak - bet it was tasty?

G

S, Thanks man...the steak was freakin' great....even had some oscar and aspargas sprinkled around!!!

OT

PS: Go back after the amber nectar, smile...and check out Bono's peice, ok?

Originally posted by OldThinker

PS: Go back after the amber nectar, smile...and check out Bono's peice, ok?

Had a look at Bono's piece (sounds quite rude that LOL) but fail to see what he has said thats any different to the views of most christians.

One more thing I must protest is:

"In Micah 5:2, the Messiah is said to be eternal, the ruler over Israel and that He will be born in a very specific location, Bethlehem Ephrathah. No one denies that Jesus Christ was born in Bethlehem Ephrathah and none can logically deny that He claimed He was Israel’s King and the eternal one
(John 5:18; 8:58; Mark 14:60-63)."

Slight problem in that A) There were two Bethlehem's at the time and B) the Bethlehem in Judea seems to be uninhabited during the time of Herod according to archeology, while the other Bethlehem seems to be the more reliable candidate - being in Galilee and close to Nazareth. Plus some of the nativity story tends to make little sense when looked at from a historical point of view i.e Mary traveling 90 miles on a donkey whilst heavily pregnant and having no need to be there - as only men needed to register; there not being a record of any such census at the supposed time etc.


G

reply to post by shihulud


S, Sorry it took so long to get back to you...

Good question...I don't know...Didn't everyone walk alot back then?

This guy thinks she walked a whole bunch more?? ...www.blessitt.com...

Here's a few other sources as well...She was very young/teenager, healthy and strong...don't think she had a donkey in this part of the story??

www.itiswritten.com...

www.redmondfamily.com...'s%20Writings/The%20Little%20Donkey

www.dribbleglass.com...

Thanks for the discussion...

OT

OT's got some more incredible predictions about Jesus...many many years before...

As a statistician, I can't ignore the odds...

==

Prediction: Jesus would bind up the brokenhearted, proclaim liberty to the captives and announce the acceptable year of the Lord
OT: Isaiah 61:1-2 “The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners, 2 to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor and the day of vengeance of our God, to comfort all who mourn,
NT fulfillment: Luke 4:18-21 "The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed, 19 to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor." 20 Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him, 21 and he began by saying to them, "Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing."

Prediction: Jesus would heal people of disease and sickness
OT: Isaiah 53:4 “Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted.
OT: Isaiah 35:5-6 “Then will the eyes of the blind be opened and the ears of the deaf unstopped. 6 Then will the lame leap like a deer, and the mute tongue shout for joy. Water will gush forth in the wilderness and streams in the desert.
OT: Isaiah 42:18 "Hear, you deaf; look, you blind, and see!
NT: Matthew 8:16-17“When evening came, many who were demon-possessed were brought to him, and he drove out the spirits with a word and healed all the sick. 17 This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah: "He took up our infirmities and carried our diseases."
NT: Matthew 11:5 “The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is preached to the poor.

Prediction: Jesus would teach in parables
OT: Isaiah 6:9-10 He said, "Go and tell this people: "'Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving.' 10 Make the heart of this people calloused; make their ears dull and close their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed."
OT: Psalms 78:2 “I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter hidden things, things from of old--
NT: Matthew 13:11-15 He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12 Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. 14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: "'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. 15 For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.'
NT: Matthew 13:34-35 “Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable. 35 So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet: "I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world."

Prediction: Jesus would be tender and compassionate
OT: Isaiah 40:11 “He tends his flock like a shepherd: He gathers the lambs in his arms and carries them close to his heart; he gently leads those that have young.
OT: Isaiah 42:3 “A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out. In faithfulness he will bring forth justice;
NT: Matthew 12:15-21 “Aware of this, Jesus withdrew from that place. Many followed him, and he healed all their sick, 16 warning them not to tell who he was. 17 This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah: 18 "Here is my servant whom I have chosen, the one I love, in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will proclaim justice to the nations. 19 He will not quarrel or cry out; no one will hear his voice in the streets. 20 A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out, till he leads justice to victory. 21 In his name the nations will put their hope."
NT: Hebrews 4:15 “For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are--yet was without sin.

Prediction: Jesus would be meek and humble
OT: Isaiah 42:2 “He will not shout or cry out, or raise his voice in the streets.
NT: Matthew 12:15-21 “Aware of this, Jesus withdrew from that place. Many followed him, and he healed all their sick, 16 warning them not to tell who he was. 17 This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah: 18 "Here is my servant whom I have chosen, the one I love, in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will proclaim justice to the nations. 19 He will not quarrel or cry out; no one will hear his voice in the streets. 20 A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out, till he leads justice to victory. 21 In his name the nations will put their hope."

Originally posted by OldThinker
reply to post by shihulud

 

S, Sorry it took so long to get back to you...

Good question...I don't know...Didn't everyone walk alot back then?

This guy thinks she walked a whole bunch more?? ...www.blessitt.com...

Here's a few other sources as well...She was very young/teenager, healthy and strong...don't think she had a donkey in this part of the story??

I'm sorry????? Did you even read this guy's site???? You have a barefaced cheek to imply that ATHEISTS HAVE THEIR HEADS STUCK IN THE SAND AND IGNORE PROBABILITY!!!!! Getting a 3 year old Mary to walk a 240 mile round trip (she would have probably been about 8 by the time she'd finished) - Hell I have bother getting my 3 year old to walk half a mile plus my girlfriend is 20 weeks pregnant and even she has bother. This guy must not have kids.

Then to suppose that a nearly 9 month pregnant woman is going to walk 90 miles for a census - after all she didn't have a donkey according to Mr Blessitt (that can't be his real name??). This guy has no idea. To even assume this as a reasonable answer and your previous retort means your not living up to your avatar of Old Thinker.

Do you REALLY think that these answers are probable????

G


[edit on 25-9-2008 by shihulud]

[edit on 25-9-2008 by shihulud]

Why don't these bloody buttons work????????


Edit to add:

As for your bountiful 'prophetic' quotes, I have already explained how most do not refer to Jesus, plus there is the possibility that some were fulfilled on purpose to try an imply that jesus was the messiah while others are so vague they mean nothing while others could be implied about many people of the time.

Nothing you have stated is emphatic proof of jesus being the messiah and they just doesn't stand up to critical analysis.

G

Originally posted by OldThinker
OT's got some more incredible predictions about Jesus...many many years before...

As a statistician, I can't ignore the odds...

==

Prediction: Jesus would bind up the brokenhearted, proclaim liberty to the captives and announce the acceptable year of the Lord

What the hell is that even supposed to mean??

Prediction: Jesus would heal people of disease and sickness

As did many others at this time

Prediction: Jesus would teach in parables

Again as did many others, it was a political environment where what you said or what you did could have you killed - as jesus found out

Prediction: Jesus would be tender and compassionate

LOL The jesus portrayed was a racist and meant his teachings only for the jews.

Prediction: Jesus would be meek and humble

Thats why he went mad at the temple - yes meek and humble jesus fights with the money lenders and folk with pigeons!


There is nothing here that provides any substantiation to your claims for jesus


G

Originally posted by shihulud

Originally posted by OldThinker
reply to post by shihulud

 

S, Sorry it took so long to get back to you...

Good question...I don't know...Didn't everyone walk alot back then?

This guy thinks she walked a whole bunch more?? ...www.blessitt.com...

Here's a few other sources as well...She was very young/teenager, healthy and strong...don't think she had a donkey in this part of the story??

I'm sorry????? Did you even read this guy's site???? You have a barefaced cheek to imply that ATHEISTS HAVE THEIR HEADS STUCK IN THE SAND AND IGNORE PROBABILITY!!!!! Getting a 3 year old Mary to walk a 240 mile round trip (she would have probably been about 8 by the time she'd finished) - Hell I have bother getting my 3 year old to walk half a mile plus my girlfriend is 20 weeks pregnant and even she has bother. This guy must not have kids.

Then to suppose that a nearly 9 month pregnant woman is going to walk 90 miles for a census - after all she didn't have a donkey according to Mr Blessitt (that can't be his real name??). This guy has no idea. To even assume this as a reasonable answer and your previous retort means your not living up to your avatar of Old Thinker.

Do you REALLY think that these answers are probable????

G


[edit on 25-9-2008 by shihulud]

[edit on 25-9-2008 by shihulud]

S, Got ya!!!!

She must have had Nike or New Balance Running Shoes....

Sorry! But As soon as I read it...I knew you blow a casket:bnghd::bnghd:

Just having a little fun...

OT

PS I'll get back on the other stuff later, ok?

Prediction: Jesus would bind up the brokenhearted, proclaim liberty to the captives and announce the acceptable year of the LordWhat the hell is that even supposed to mean??

G

Hey S,

Uok with the above joke? If not, I apologize, just playing around…OK, I’ve got my ‘game face’ on and am ready to proceed.

You said “What is HELL…”…. Does this mean? You haven’t been reading ahead have you? You’re not allowed to read the back of the book, ok? (Smile)

Alright let’s break this prophesy down…

Broken-hearted?

Captives?

Year of the Lord?

What could these three things mean?

Isaiah 61:1, 2 says… The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me, Because the LORD has anointed me To bring good news to the afflicted; He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to captives And freedom to prisoners;
2 To proclaim the favorable year of the LORD…

Church is those days would include a sequential reading of sections of the old testament…the week before the group finished up Isaiah 60…and this Sabbath day…they were moving on to chapter 6…is was probably even in the bulletin … 

And it just happened to be Joseph’s familys time to read…so Jesus, the carpenter…got up and started to read…I can just see the parishioners listening with delinght…UNTIL…He said…?

…TODAY….this scripture (written many many many years ago)…IS….being fulfilled!” OUCH…OH NO!!!!! What is he saying!!!!!!???? This is Joseph’s son, the carpenter…heck I even changed his drawers when he was young….I showed him with Joseph how to draive the first nail….I even got him a bandaid one time when he hit his finger…

…WHO DOES HE THINK HE IS!!!!!!!!??????????????

Wait, here’s a commercial…Wesley says… of verse 1 – “61:1 Upon me - Though the prophet may speak of himself, yet it is principally to be understood of Christ. Anointed - Set me apart, both capacitating him with gifts, and commissioning him with authority; and yet more, as it is applied to Christ, a power to make all effectual, from whence he hath also the name of Messiah among the Hebrews, and of Christ among the Greeks; nay, Christ alone among the prophets hath obtained this name, Psalm 45:7. The prophet describes first, who Christ is, and then what are his offices. Liberty - This appertains to Christ's kingly office, whereby he proclaims liberty from the dominion of sin, and from the fear of hell.”

There’s that Hell again…
Also… the Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary says...of chapter 61 the Messiah's Office was the restoration of Israel.
Messiah announces His twofold commission to bring gospel mercy at His first coming, and judgments on unbelievers and comfort to Zion at His second coming (Isa 61:1-9); the language can be applied to Isaiah, comforting by his prophecies the exiles in Babylon, only in a subordinate sense.
1. is upon me; because . hath anointed me-quoted by Jesus as His credentials in preaching (Lu 4:18-21). The Spirit is upon Me in preaching, because Jehovah hath anointed Me from the womb (Lu 1:35), and at baptism, with the Spirit "without measure," and permanently "abiding" on Me (Isa 11:2; Joh 1:32; 3:34; Ps 45:7; with which compare 1Ki 1:39, 40; 19:16; Ex 29:7). "Anointed" as Messiah, Prophet, Priest, and King.
good tidings-as the word "gospel" means.
the meek-rather, "the poor," as Lu 4:18 has it; that is, those afflicted with calamity, poor in circumstances and in spirit (Mt 11:5).
proclaim liberty-(Joh 8:31-36). Language drawn from the deliverance of the Babylonian captives, to describe the deliverance from sin and death (Heb 2:15); also from the "liberty proclaimed" to all bond-servants in the year of jubilee (Isa 61:2; Le 25:10; Jer 34:8, 9).
opening of the prison-The Hebrew rather is, "the most complete opening," namely, of the eyes to them that are bound, that is, deliverance from prison, for captives are as it were blind in the darkness of prison (Isa 14:17; 35:5; 42:7) [Ewald]. So Lu 4:18 and the Septuagint interpret it; Lu 4:18, under inspiration, adds to this, for the fuller explanation of the single clause in the Hebrew, "to set at liberty them that are bruised"; thus expressing the double "opening" implied; namely, that of the eyes (Joh 9:39), and that of the prison (Ro 6:18; 7:24, 25; Heb 2:15). His miracles were acted parables.”

And the commentator Matthew Henry say concisely… “The prophets had the Holy Spirit of God at times, teaching them what to say, and causing them to say it; but Christ had the Spirit always, without measure, to qualify him, as man, for the work to which he was appointed. The poor are commonly best disposed to receive the gospel, Jas 2:5; and it is only likely to profit us when received with meekness. To such as are poor in spirit, Christ preached good tidings when he said, Blessed are the meek. Christ's satisfaction is accepted. By the dominion of sin in us, we are bound under the power of Satan; but the Son is ready, by his Spirit, to make us free; and then we shall be free indeed. Sin and Satan were to be destroyed; and Christ triumphed over them on his cross. But the children of men, who stand out against these offers, shall be dealt with as enemies. Christ was to be a Comforter, and so he is; he is sent to comfort all who mourn, and who seek to him, and not to the world, for comfort. He will do all this for his people, that they may abound in the fruits of righteousness, as the branches of God's planting. Neither the mercy of God, the atonement of Christ, nor the gospel of grace, profit the self-sufficient and proud. They must be humbled, and led to know their own character and wants, by the Holy Spirit, that they may see and feel their need of the sinner's Friend and Saviour. His doctrine contains glad tidings indeed to those who are humbled before God.”

OK, enough with the scholars…back to the reaction of the crowd! His loving church family FREAKED!!!!

Luke 4:28-30- 28 And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath, And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong. But he passing through the midst of them went his way,

The mob was gonna throw him off the cliff…can you imagine? YES I CAN!!!! Because of the magnitude of the content of WHAT he was saying!!! No stealth here from the young carpenter…
Another commercial…I do a certain work for companies…who used to do it for ‘one’ company…the company I originally worked for didn’t listen…NOW all the companies I visit and teach ALL listen…thing is I HAVE NOT CHANGED…I’M THE SAME PERSON…with the same skills…

Why is it all these companies listen and implement what I teach now…and the original company I worked for only didn’t…???

In the consulting business there is a saying…He can’t be smart unless he lives at least 50 miles from us…their point is “a prophet is never accepted at home!” And neither was Jesus…

Thus His ministry of travel started….at least that’s my take on it…
I was looking for some video/movie online of the crowd trying to push him off but I could find…here’s a ppt. slide 7 and following give some more insight into the meaning of this passage…sorry I couldn’t find more..

I hope you are good!!!

OT out…until next time!!!!

Those bloody button again!!!!

Here's that link I mentioned above...nothing really special just more insight into what the pagges means...slide 7 and beyond... www.authorstream.com...

OK, here’s some more…whew….

Prediction: Jesus would be sinless and without guile
OT: Isaiah 53:9 “He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.

NT: 1 Peter 2:22 "He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth."

Prediction: Jesus would bear the reproaches due others
OT: Isaiah 53:12 “Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

NT: Psalms 69:9-10 for zeal for your house consumes me, and the insults of those who insult you fall on me. 10 When I weep and fast, I must endure scorn;
NT: Romans 15:3 For even Christ did not please himself but, as it is written: "The insults of those who insult you have fallen on me."

Prediction: Jesus would make a triumphal entry into Jerusalem on a donkey
OT: Isaiah 62:11 “The LORD has made proclamation to the ends of the earth: "Say to the Daughter of Zion, 'See, your Savior comes! See, his reward is with him, and his recompense accompanies him.'"
OT: Zechariah 9:9 “Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.
OT: Psalms 118:26 “Blessed is he who comes in the name of the LORD. From the house of the LORD we bless you.

NT: Matthew 21:1-9 “As they approached Jerusalem and came to Bethphage on the Mount of Olives, Jesus sent two disciples, 2 saying to them, "Go to the village ahead of you, and at once you will find a donkey tied there, with her colt by her. Untie them and bring them to me. 3 If anyone says anything to you, tell him that the Lord needs them, and he will send them right away." 4 This took place to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet: 5 "Say to the Daughter of Zion, 'See, your king comes to you, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.'" 6 The disciples went and did as Jesus had instructed them. 7 They brought the donkey and the colt, placed their cloaks on them, and Jesus sat on them. 8 A very large crowd spread their cloaks on the road, while others cut branches from the trees and spread them on the road. 9 The crowds that went ahead of him and those that followed shouted, "Hosanna to the Son of David!" "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!" "Hosanna in the highest!"

NT: Mark 11:1-11 “As they approached Jerusalem and came to Bethphage and Bethany at the Mount of Olives, Jesus sent two of his disciples, 2 saying to them, "Go to the village ahead of you, and just as you enter it, you will find a colt tied there, which no one has ever ridden. Untie it and bring it here. 3 If anyone asks you, 'Why are you doing this?' tell him, 'The Lord needs it and will send it back here shortly.'" 4 They went and found a colt outside in the street, tied at a doorway. As they untied it, 5 some people standing there asked, "What are you doing, untying that colt?" 6 They answered as Jesus had told them to, and the people let them go. 7 When they brought the colt to Jesus and threw their cloaks over it, he sat on it. 8 Many people spread their cloaks on the road, while others spread branches they had cut in the fields. 9 Those who went ahead and those who followed shouted, "Hosanna! " "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!" 10 "Blessed is the coming kingdom of our father David!" "Hosanna in the highest!" 11 Jesus entered Jerusalem and went to the temple. He looked around at everything, but since it was already late, he went out to Bethany with the Twelve.
NT: John 12:12-16 “The next day the great crowd that had come for the Feast heard that Jesus was on his way to Jerusalem. 13 They took palm branches and went out to meet him, shouting, "Hosanna! " "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!" "Blessed is the King of Israel!" 14 Jesus found a young donkey and sat upon it, as it is written, 15 "Do not be afraid, O Daughter of Zion; see, your king is coming, seated on a donkey's colt." 16 At first his disciples did not understand all this. Only after Jesus was glorified did they realize that these things had been written about him and that they had done these things to him.

reply to post by OldThinker



What did you think of the Campolo post?

Originally posted by Lannock

Originally posted by GMoney1
reply to post by shihulud

 

For my part I would have long since become exasperated by the lack of faith being displayed here. To deny the existence of an intelligent organizerof universal orderliness, would be as ludicrous as BELIEVING THAT THE VERY EXISTENCE OF CYBER SPACE CAME ABOUT BY CHANCE.!! No one with an ounce of intelligence could ascribe to such a belief. Yet you hold on to such views with great pride and reverence.

No one with an ounce of intelligence would think that the Bible is the word of God. But you are Christians and you cannot help yourself.

EDIT: To Shihulud and noobfun: If you guys only take into account the "Jeremiah/Zechariah" FARCE that OT concocted and the FACT that the Christians give a total blind eye to the "NOAH" argument, you realise that you guys are wasting your time?

[edit on 18-9-2008 by Lannock]

Lannock, did you forget me?

What are the specifics of that Noah problem?????

I'm quickly using up my 'ounce' of intelligience...please hurry, ok?

OT getting older...

Originally posted by OldThinker
..........

...Thus His ministry of travel started….at least that’s my take on it…
I was looking for some video/movie online of the crowd trying to push him off but I could find…here’s a ppt. slide 7 and following give some more insight into the meaning of this passage…sorry I couldn’t find more..

I hope you are good!!!

OT out…until next time!!!!

Hi OT, feeling quite good thanks for asking - Yourself?

While I do enjoy reading your explanations I feel that this one never quite made it through. I still fail to see how this 'prediction' is realized although I did enjoy your visualization of it. PPT link not there

OK certain parts yes but it is one of those obscurities that has no ooomf, slightly lackluster and plainly boring.


Here's one for you.

Do you really expect anyone to believe that your god decided that Elijah (the super prophet whom jesus and john the baptist were thought to be) was worthy enough to send 2 'she bears' to maim and kill 42 boys just for calling him baldy [2 King 2:23]? Don't you think thats a bit harsh? But another problem I have is how these 2 bears actually managed to attack 42 of them - I mean thats quite a number of children, you wouldn't expect all these kids to just stand and wait their turn to be attacked and you wouldn't expect any adults to just stand by and watch (which I presume super Elijah did as how would he know how many the bears ripped to pieces).

Do you find this biblical story probable? If so, how do you reconcile that your god would allow his only begotten son to be nailed to a plank while assisting in the wholesale massacre of children because Elijah didn't like to be called baldy - which he must have been, so these kids were only telling the truth?


G

S, We need to address more relevant/pertinent/’later’ questions of appropriateness…I’ll do my best…but…please….the nation of Israel…set the stage…THAT’s ALL…ok?
Your example of ‘little children’ uses the Hebrew word ‘naar’ which relates to a WIDE range of age…up to mature adult, ok?....for example Joseph, the multi-colored coat dude, played by Donnie Osmond…back in the day… was described as a ‘naar’….also Joshua was freakin’ 45 yrs old and described as a ‘naar…so these were not children goating the prophet!!
These guys MOCKED the prophet…this term was NOT used of KID’s, ok? See 2Chron 36.16 if interested…
Their satirical admonition, “Go up … go up,” likely reveals the wish that he would ascend (like Elijah did), i.e., it reflected their desire to be rid of him. The reference to baldness may be a curse-wish of these rebels (cf. Isaiah 3:17a,24). Clearly, these young men were not sympathetic with the mission of God’s prophet. Also the term “curse” is a pronouncement of divine judgment upon these spiritual misfits (cf. Genesis 9:25; 49:7; Deuteronomy 27:15ff; Joshua 6:26). And lastly, the tragedy that befell these ‘young’ men was obviously by divine design since Elisha would have possessed no personal power to call bears from the woods to do his bidding. But the sovereignty of God over the animal world is alluded to frequently in the Scriptures (see Numbers 21:6).
This whole thing, in my mind is a rouse…deception…diversion…WHAT IS YOUR REAL ISSUE? Certainly, you don’t spend your precious time LOOKING for Old Testament stories of BS do you???? UR BETTER THAN THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!
OT has presented numerous, yes numerous examples of the fulfillment of JC with regard to the OT predictions…I HAVE TO GIVE IT TO YOU…YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE TO STICK WITH ME…thx!!!
All other of your co-horts are still in the sand….where are they????????? They are over on some easier thread fighting over the divinity of Jesus…some safe ATS thread…but still you are with me!~!!!!
I thank you…but am concerned for their souls…as I am yours….please notify them….I am getting bored with this…not you, just the lack of competition….?
There are no more important issues than we are discussing…you are a good man…and I am honored with the banter…but where are the others…sleeping?
My best friend desires a relationship with all of them…He is a friend of sinners…HE is Watching this thread…and is ready to intervene in the lives of all!!!
OT Spiritual Meter… Knowledge + Life Experience + Circumstances = REVELATION!!!!!!!!!!!!
Time will tell, right? OT Watching!!!

PS: Here’s some more….that the atheists are avoiding!!

Prediction: Jesus would enter the Temple with authority
OT: Haggai 2:7-9 “ I will shake all nations, and the desired of all nations will come, and I will fill this house with glory,' says the LORD Almighty. 8 'The silver is mine and the gold is mine,' declares the LORD Almighty. 9 'The glory of this present house will be greater than the glory of the former house,' says the LORD Almighty. 'And in this place I will grant peace,' declares the LORD Almighty."
OT: Malachi 3:1 "See, I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come," says the LORD Almighty.
NT: Matthew 21:12 “Jesus entered the temple area and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves.
NT: Luke 2:27-38 “Moved by the Spirit, he went into the temple courts. When the parents brought in the child Jesus to do for him what the custom of the Law required, 28 Simeon took him in his arms and praised God, saying: 29 "Sovereign Lord, as you have promised, you now dismiss your servant in peace. 30 For my eyes have seen your salvation, 31 which you have prepared in the sight of all people, 32 a light for revelation to the Gentiles and for glory to your people Israel." 33 The child's father and mother marveled at what was said about him. 34 Then Simeon blessed them and said to Mary, his mother: "This child is destined to cause the falling and rising of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be spoken against, 35 so that the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed. And a sword will pierce your own soul too." 36 There was also a prophetess, Anna, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was very old; she had lived with her husband seven years after her marriage, 37 and then was a widow until she was eighty-four. She never left the temple but worshiped night and day, fasting and praying. 38 Coming up to them at that very moment, she gave thanks to God and spoke about the child to all who were looking forward to the redemption of Jerusalem.
NT: Luke 2:45-50 “When they did not find him, they went back to Jerusalem to look for him. 46 After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. 47 Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers. 48 When his parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, "Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you." 49 "Why were you searching for me?" he asked. "Didn't you know I had to be in my Father's house?" 50 But they did not understand what he was saying to them
NT: John 2:13-22 “When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover, Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14 In the temple courts he found men selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money. 15 So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. 16 To those who sold doves he said, "Get these out of here! How dare you turn my Father's house into a market!" 17 His disciples remembered that it is written: "Zeal for your house will consume me." 18 Then the Jews demanded of him, "What miraculous sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this?" 19 Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." 20 The Jews replied, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?" 21 But the temple he had spoken of was his body. 22 After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the Scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.
Prediction: Jesus would be hated without reason
OT: Isaiah 49:7 “This is what the LORD says-- the Redeemer and Holy One of Israel-- to him who was despised and abhorred by the nation, to the servant of rulers: "Kings will see you and rise up, princes will see and bow down, because of the LORD, who is faithful, the Holy One of Israel, who has chosen you."
OT: Psalms 69:4 “Those who hate me without reason outnumber the hairs of my head; many are my enemies without cause, those who seek to destroy me. I am forced to restore what I did not steal.
NT Fulfillment: John 15:24-25 (NIV) If I had not done among them what no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. But now they have seen these miracles, and yet they have hated both me and my Father. 25 But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: 'They hated me without reason.'

Prediction: Jesus would be rejected by the Jews
OT: Psalms 69:4 “Those who hate me without reason outnumber the hairs of my head; many are my enemies without cause, those who seek to destroy me. I am forced to restore what I did not steal.
OT: Psalm 69:8 “I am a stranger to my brothers, an alien to my own mother's sons;
OT: Isaiah 6:10 “Make the heart of this people calloused; make their ears dull and close their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed."
OT: Isaiah 29:13 “The Lord says: "These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship of me is made up only of rules taught by men.
OT: Isaiah 53:3 “He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
OT: Isaiah 63:1-6 “Who is this coming from Edom, from Bozrah, with his garments stained crimson? Who is this, robed in splendor, striding forward in the greatness of his strength? "It is I, speaking in righteousness, mighty to save." 2 Why are your garments red, like those of one treading the winepress? 3 "I have trodden the winepress alone; from the nations no one was with me. I trampled them in my anger and trod them down in my wrath; their blood spattered my garments, and I stained all my clothing. 4 For the day of vengeance was in my heart, and the year of my redemption has come. 5 I looked, but there was no one to help, I was appalled that no one gave support; so my own arm worked salvation for me, and my own wrath sustained me. 6 I trampled the nations in my anger; in my wrath I made them drunk and poured their blood on the ground."
NT: Matthew 15:1-9 “Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2 "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don't wash their hands before they eat!" 3 Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.' 5 But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,' 6 he is not to 'honor his father ' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you: 8 "'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. 9 They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.'"
NT: Mark 6:3 “Isn't this the carpenter? Isn't this Mary's son and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas and Simon? Aren't his sisters here with us?" And they took offense at him.
NT: Mark 7:6-7 He replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: "'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. 7 They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.'
NT: Luke 9:58 “Jesus replied, "Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head."
NT: John 1:11 “He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.
NT: John 7:3-5 “Jesus' brothers said to him, "You ought to leave here and go to Judea, so that your disciples may see the miracles you do. 4 No one who wants to become a public figure acts in secret. Since you are doing these things, show yourself to the world." 5 For even his own brothers did not believe in him.
NT: John 12:38-40 “This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet: "Lord, who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?" 39 For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere: 40 "He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn--and I would heal them."
NT: John 15:25 “But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: 'They hated me without reason.

Back to the statistics, that my atheist brothers are avoiding!

See...

The Mathematical Odds of Jesus Fulfilling Prophecy

Details...

"The following probabilities are taken from Peter Stoner in Science Speaks (Moody Press, 1963) to show that coincidence is ruled out by the science of probability. Stoner says that by using the modern science of probability in reference to eight prophecies, 'we find that the chance that any man might have lived down to the present time and fulfilled all eight prophecies is 1 in 1017." That would be 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000. In order to help us comprehend this staggering probability, Stoner illustrates it by supposing that "we take 1017 silver dollars and lay them on the face of Texas. They will cover all of the state two feet deep.

"Now mark one of these silver dollars and stir the whole mass thoroughly, all over the state. Blindfold a man and tell him that he can travel as far as he wishes, but he must pick up one silver dollar and say that this is the right one. What chance would he have of getting the right one? Just the same chance that the prophets would have had of writing these eight prophecies and having them all come true in any one man."

Stoner considers 48 prophecies and says, "we find the chance that any one man fulfilled all 48 prophecies to be 1 in 10157, or 1 in

100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.

The estimated number of electrons in the universe is around 1079. It should be quite evident that Jesus did not fulfil the prophecies by accident."

Link.... www.tabbaptistchurch.org.uk...

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Skeptic's can you add that high??????

OT just wants to talk.....where are you all????