atheists stick their head in the sand/ignore probability!

PS: Here's others opinions, throughout history, concerning Jesus...thoughts? Yeah, so what -

G




In my mind this response from you...was a blow off...????? You me

Certainly you find some wisdom in some of these quotes???



[edit on 15-9-2008 by OldThinker]

Well, even more….

Prediction: Jesus would be the "seed of Isaac"
OT: Genesis 17:9 Then God said to Abraham, "As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come.
OT: Genesis 21:12 But God said to him, "Do not be so distressed about the boy and your maidservant. Listen to whatever Sarah tells you, because it is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.
NT: Matthew 1:2 NT: Abraham was the father of Isaac, Isaac the father of Jacob, Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers,
NT: Luke 3:34 “the son of Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham, the son of Terah, the son of Nahor,
NT: Hebrews 11:17-19 “By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had received the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, 18 even though God had said to him, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 19 Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead, and figuratively speaking, he did receive Isaac back from death.

Prediction: Jesus would be of the tribe of Judah
OT: Genesis 49:10 “The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until he comes to whom it belongs and the obedience of the nations is his.
NT: Matthew 1:2-3 “ Abraham was the father of Isaac, Isaac the father of Jacob, Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers, 3 Judah the father of Perez and Zerah, whose mother was Tamar, Perez the father of Hezron, Hezron the father of Ram,
NT: Luke 3:33 “the son of Amminadab, the son of Ram, the son of Hezron, the son of Perez, the son of Judah,
NT: Hebrews 7:14-17 “For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah, and in regard to that tribe Moses said nothing about priests.

Jesus would be come from David's family and be heir to his throne
OT: 2 Samuel 7:12-16 “When your days are over and you rest with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring to succeed you, who will come from your own body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He is the one who will build a house for my Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be his father, and he will be my son. When he does wrong, I will punish him with the rod of men, with floggings inflicted by men. 15 But my love will never be taken away from him, as I took it away from Saul, whom I removed from before you. 16 Your house and your kingdom will endure forever before me ; your throne will be established forever.'"
OT: Psalms 89:3-4 You said, "I have made a covenant with my chosen one, I have sworn to David my servant, 4 'I will establish your line forever and make your throne firm through all generations.'" Selah
OT: Psalms 110:1 “Of David. A psalm. The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet."
OT: Psalms 132:11 “The LORD swore an oath to David, a sure oath that he will not revoke: "One of your own descendants I will place on your throne--
OT: Isaiah 9:6-7 “For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this.
OT: Isaiah 11:1-5 “A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit. 2 The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him-- the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD-- 3 and he will delight in the fear of the LORD. He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes, or decide by what he hears with his ears; 4 but with righteousness he will judge the needy, with justice he will give decisions for the poor of the earth. He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth; with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked. 5 Righteousness will be his belt and faithfulness the sash around his waist.
OT: Jeremiah 23:5 "The days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will raise up to David a righteous Branch, a King who will reign wisely and do what is just and right in the land.
NT: Matthew 1:1 “A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son of David, the son of Abraham:
NT: Matthew 1:6 “and Jesse the father of King David. David was the father of Solomon, whose mother had been Uriah's wife,
NT: Matthew 22:44 'The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet."'
NT: Mark 12:36 “David himself, speaking by the Holy Spirit, declared: "'The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet."'
NT: Luke 1:69-70 He has raised up a horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David 70 (as he said through his holy prophets of long ago),
NT: Luke 2:4-7 “So Joseph also went up from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to Bethlehem the town of David, because he belonged to the house and line of David. 5 He went there to register with Mary, who was pledged to be married to him and was expecting a child. 6 While they were there, the time came for the baby to be born, 7 and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son. She wrapped him in cloths and placed him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn.
NT: Luke 20:42-44 “David himself declares in the Book of Psalms: "'The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand 43 until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet."' 44 David calls him 'Lord.' How then can he be his son?"
NT: John 7:42 “Does not the Scripture say that the Christ will come from David's family and from Bethlehem, the town where David lived?"
NT: Revelation 22:16 "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."


OT out...

PS:
Question - "Hey OT," says the skeptic, "why do you post so many bible verses?"
Answer - Hebrews 4:12 - For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.


...able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart...of ATS readers!

Old Thinker,

To me, the atheist is somewhat a blessing. Do you think it helps to call them names and to tell them that their heads are stuck in the sand? Not all they who call themselves Christians, are Christians.

Do you not remember how God hardened the heart of Pharaoh? If such things happened in Moses days, how much more so in our days? Is not God in control of all things? Even to harden the heart?

For he saith to Moses: I will show mercy to whom I show mercy: and will have compassion on whom I have compassion. So lieth it not then in a mans will or cunning, but in the mercy of God. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh even for this same purpose have I stirred thee up, to show my power on thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the world. So hath he mercy on whom he will, and whom he will, he maketh hard hearted.

Have you not read also?

Lusts of youth avoid, and follow righteousness, faith, love and peace, with them that call on the Lord with pure heart. Foolish and unlearned questions put from thee, remembering that they do but gender strife. But the servant of the Lord must not strive: but must be peaceable unto all men, and apt to teach, and one that can suffer the evil in meekness, and can inform them that resist, if that God at any time will give them repentance for to know the truth: that they may come to them selves again out of the snare of the devil, which are now taken of him at his will.

My husband has been an unbeliever for many years. Yet the Lord blessed me with him and has hardened his heart on many occasions to open my eyes to the truth of many things. Is it not written to the woman who has herself an husband who is an unbeliever:

To the remnant speak I, and not the Lord. If any brother have a wife that believeth not, if she be content to dwell with him, let him not put her away. And the woman which hath to her husband an infidel, if he consent to dwell with her, let her not put him away. For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband. Or else were your children unclean: but now are they pure. But and if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not in subjection to such. God hath called us in peace. For how knowest thou o woman, whether thou shalt save that man or no? Other how knowest thou o man whether thou shalt save that woman or no? but even as God hath distributed to every man.

I had an Uncle who passed away not too long ago, he too for many years was an atheist. My mother told me when she was younger, she had cursed in front of him, and his reaction to her was, "I thought Christians aren't supposed to curse?" And he was right.

In the end, he became a firm believer in God and Christ.

Remember also, how Jesus appeared to Paul? And was not Paul against the disciples of the Lord in his days? Yet the Lord used him as an instrument to spread the gospel unto the gentiles...did our Lord not?

And Saul yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest, and desired of him letters to Damascus, to the synagogues: that if he found any of this way whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem. But as he journeyed and was come nigh to Damasco, suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven, and he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying to him: Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And he said, what art thou Lord? And the Lord said: I am Jesus whom thou persecutest, it shall be hard for thee to kick against the prick. And he both trembling and astonied said: Lord what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him: arise and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou shalt do.

God and Christ know who are theirs.

I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. An hired servant, which is not the shepherd, neither the sheep are his own, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and flyeth, and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. The hired servant flyeth, because he is an hired servant, and careth not for the sheep. I am that good shepherd, and know mine, and am known of mine. As my father knoweth me: even so know I my father. And I give my life for the sheep: and other sheep I have, which are not of this fold. Them also must I bring, that they may hear my voice, and that there may be one flock and one shepherd.

Be at peace brethren.

Hey OT

someone pointed out earlier some of the predictions your using arnt predictions at all they are talking about David or other biblical figures

those are then bieng used to predict Jesus

thats more personal interpretation then what is said in the bible isnt it?


as i showed earlier many of the direct word of god (OT) and some of the words attributed to jesus show that much of what is called christian is the opposite of what is said

or takes somthing jesus did once and said to his disciple to do gets changed to all christians should do this all the time

that was my point with why when and how do you pray

to worship god in front of people are heathens wishing to look holy

to pray for things is to pray like a heathen

to take mass and burn incense is the action of a heathen

so isnt the practice we call christianity following the word of god and jesus but wraped in a heathen package of tradition?


also the NT was written after the OT

mark was written by someone who wasnt familiar with jerusalem and its surrounding area making geographical errors so he wasnt with jesus and then taking the words of buddism and redesignating it as jesus's words

mark isnt the word of jesus its the words of others mixed in with what could be the words of jesus

essentialy its stories about who he thinks jesus is and stories about others changed to be jesus ..... so not the actual words of jesus

matthew is a polished copy of mark copying 600 of the 666(672 depending on version) verses of mark and adds stories noone else seems to know anything about such as the dead walking into jerusalem which somthing that ground breaking would have been written down by historians or at the very least th other disciples that were there

luke copies 300 verses from mark and the opening 4 lines say its written by someone who never meet jesus or had met jesus .. its another collection of storys and words attributed to jesus

these gospels we know floated around and were given the names of the disciples latter, if any of the other many namless gospels were attributed to the disciples instead of these christianity would have a very different outlook and feel so what makes these any more real then they are?
and would they then prove that jesus was prophesiesd one as many of them state jesus wasnt even a man some say he was a god taken in human form with none of the failings of man (pain etc its hard to die for someones sins when your still imortal) others attribute jesus to just a spiritual form in the same way jesus appeared to paul


and how can everyone following the same beleief and word of god spawn such differnt attitudes to others

jesus taught love all men(and women) as you would a friedn or family member. treat them well teach them if you can and no man is doomed until the end

Dearwife accepts a sceptics view to challenge and strengthen her faith while still loving the athesists and beleivers of other faiths (presuming it goes beyond just your husband)

Ot you may skip over a few points that dont match your belief but you accept they are people and still deserve respect dispite thier views not matching yours

NOTurTypical denounces anyone not of HIS faith evil, as clearly stated on the last page, in another topic ive seen him call someone ignorant and a liar becasue they chose to look at another version of the bible as well as the KJV then denounced the other version as evil and the work of satan


If Ot and Dearwife have slighlty different views but are both underlined with respect for other humans as jesus taught the same with Jesusistruth if you go further back in the thread

how are you 3 good christians following and using the word of jesus

when Notyourtypical is also a good christian using the word of jesus when he shows none of those and attacks when people dont accept HIS truth and tells them they are damned and always will be





[edit on 16/9/08 by noobfun]

reply to post by DearWife


Thanks for your thoughts....yes God is in control...and...there are hundreds of scriptures telling us to share our faith....that's all I'm doing...

OT

PS: I haven't called anyone any names...at least not any I can remember...and yes the atheist generally ignores intra-biblical data...the sand comment is just to spark a little interest.

Hey OT

someone pointed out earlier some of the predictions your using arnt predictions at all they are talking about David or other biblical figures

= = = = = = = = =
Answer: Regarding the David comment/disagreement…I see this as a prediction of Christ…you don’t…it’s as simple as that…the future readers have both perspectives and can decide…I have placed many more for the readers review, as you know. To me, Chrisitanity is the thruth…see… www.johnankerberg.com...
= = = = = = = = = =

those are then bieng used to predict Jesus

= = = = = = = =
Answer: OK I understand that statement.
= = = = = = = = =

thats more personal interpretation then what is said in the bible isnt it?

= = = = = = =
No…atleast in my opinion… For example, in the anguished imagery of King David’s prayers, Psalm 22 accurately describes a
crucifixion—yet this description is given hundreds of years before the method of execution by crucifixion
was devised. No other Psalm fits the description of Christ’s crucifixion better than Psalm 22, explaining
why it is the most frequently quoted Psalm by New Testament writers. Yet this Psalm was written 1000
years before Jesus was born. Jesus Himself quoted the first verse of this Psalm while on the cross.
Whatever one thinks of this Psalm, no one can deny that it describes what happened to Jesus on the cross an entire millennium later: “…they have pierced my hands and my feet. I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me. They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing” (Psalm 22:16-18; cf. Matthew 27:35).

In Isaiah 9:6-7, the prophecy of the coming Messiah concerns a child to be born who will also be God and
who will have an everlasting kingdom. In the Gospels, Jesus claimed that He was that incarnate God and
that He would have an everlasting kingdom (Matthew 16:28; 26:64; Luke 22:30; John 6:38-42, 62; 8:42;
10:30, 36-38; 18:36; cf., 2 Peter 1:11).

In Isaiah 53:4-12, the Messiah is prophesied to be crushed and pierced for our transgressions; that God
will lay upon Him the iniquity of all mankind. In the gospels, Jesus also claims to fulfill this prophecy
(Matthew 20:28; cf. 53:12). In fact, Jesus repeatedly claimed He was the predicted Messiah by continually
claiming He was fulfilling Old Testament prophecies: “You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the
Scriptures that testify about me” (John 5:39; see also Matthew 26:24, 54, 56; Luke 24:25-27, 44).

In Micah 5:2, the Messiah is said to be eternal, the ruler over Israel and that He will be born in a very
specific location, Bethlehem Ephrathah. No one denies that Jesus Christ was born in Bethlehem
Ephrathah and none can logically deny that He claimed He was Israel’s King and the eternal one
(John 5:18; 8:58; Mark 14:60-63).

In Daniel 9:24-27, written 500 years before Christ is born, the Messiah is prophesied to be killed at the
exact time of Christ’s death.

In Zechariah 12:10, also written 500 years before Christ, it is prophesied that Jehovah Himself will be
pierced by the inhabitants of Jerusalem who will mourn over Him. The Hebrew word means pierced as
with a spear, just as Jesus was pierced during His crucifixion (John 19:32,35).

Answer: My opinion must submit to the Word of God, I believe it includes the New Testament, you don’t…you are entitled to believe what you will
= = = = = = = = = = = =

as i showed earlier many of the direct word of god (OT) and some of the words attributed to jesus show that much of what is called christian is the opposite of what is said

or takes somthing jesus did once and said to his disciple to do gets changed to all christians should do this all the time

that was my point with why when and how do you pray

to worship god in front of people are heathens wishing to look holy

to pray for things is to pray like a heathen

to take mass and burn incense is the action of a heathen

so isnt the practice we call christianity following the word of god and jesus but wraped in a heathen package of tradition?


= = = = = = = =
Answer:?????????????????? Not sure what you are saying?
Answer: Remember, The first law of scripture translation…is this…a Text without of Context…is a Pretext
= = = = = = = = = =

also the NT was written after the OT

mark was written by someone who wasnt familiar with jerusalem and its surrounding area making geographical errors so he wasnt with jesus and then taking the words of buddism and redesignating it as jesus's words

mark isnt the word of jesus its the words of others mixed in with what could be the words of jesus

essentialy its stories about who he thinks jesus is and stories about others changed to be jesus ..... so not the actual words of jesus

matthew is a polished copy of mark copying 600 of the 666(672 depending on version) verses of mark and adds stories noone else seems to know anything about such as the dead walking into jerusalem which somthing that ground breaking would have been written down by historians or at the very least th other disciples that were there

luke copies 300 verses from mark and the opening 4 lines say its written by someone who never meet jesus or had met jesus .. its another collection of storys and words attributed to jesus

these gospels we know floated around and were given the names of the disciples latter, if any of the other many namless gospels were attributed to the disciples instead of these christianity would have a very different outlook and feel so what makes these any more real then they are?
and would they then prove that jesus was prophesiesd one as many of them state jesus wasnt even a man some say he was a god taken in human form with none of the failings of man (pain etc its hard to die for someones sins when your still imortal) others attribute jesus to just a spiritual form in the same way jesus appeared to paul

= = = = = = = = =
Answer: I disagree, but you can believe what you want my friend!
= = = = = = = = =

and how can everyone following the same beleief and word of god spawn such differnt attitudes to others

jesus taught love all men(and women) as you would a friedn or family member. treat them well teach them if you can and no man is doomed until the end

Dearwife accepts a sceptics view to challenge and strengthen her faith while still loving the athesists and beleivers of other faiths (presuming it goes beyond just your husband)


= = = = = = = =
Answer: Thanks for being sensitive to that/her…good job!
= = = = = = = = = =

Ot you may skip over a few points that dont match your belief but you accept they are people and still deserve respect dispite thier views not matching yours


= = = = = = = =
Answer: I’ll work on that, ok? Bottom line is I hold to the reliability of the new testament..see.. www.christiananswers.net...

Noobfun, Thank you for contributing to this thread…God Bless You..Shalom! OT out…
= = = = = = = = = =

Originally posted by OldThinker
PS: Here's others opinions, throughout history, concerning Jesus...thoughts?

Yeah, so what -

G




In my mind this response from you...was a blow off...????? You me

Certainly you find some wisdom in some of these quotes???



[edit on 15-9-2008 by OldThinker] Certainly there is some wisdom in these quotes as there is in the bible just as there is wisdom in non religious quotes and non religious text. Just because someone famous/infamous makes some religious quote doesn't mean that their viewpoint is any more the truth.

G

Originally posted by OldThinker
Well, even more….

Prediction: Jesus would be the "seed of Isaac"

I shall say this once more NOAH NOAH BLOODY NOAH according to the bible EVERYONE is decended from NOAH


Jesus would be come from David's family and be heir to his throne
Again Jesus NEVER EVER gained the throne of David and why are the genealogies of jesus so different ?


G

Originally posted by noobfun


NOTurTypical denounces anyone not of HIS faith evil, as clearly stated on the last page, in another topic ive seen him call someone ignorant and a liar becasue they chose to look at another version of the bible as well as the KJV then denounced the other version as evil and the work of satan

[edit on 16/9/08 by noobfun]

Hey Noob do worry about NTsquared, calling me a liar and ignorant is a compliment. I'm from Scotland, the land of sectarian bigotry, where the only time most people have seen a bible is in jail when they wipe their arse with it or make cigarettes with it and they still consider themselves experts LOL still makes me laugh that one.


G

Originally posted by OldThinker
Hey OT

someone pointed out earlier some of the predictions your using arnt predictions at all they are talking about David or other biblical figures

= = = = = = = = =
Answer: ...

Since your in an answering mood care to explain the contradiction in Matthew I posed about the misquote from Jeremiah which is really from Zechariah?

G

reply to post by shihulud


shihulud,

What's up big boy? !

In Dallas having Italian...

Hope all is well..

Pls give me some time, after I get bak, settle down..ok?

Pls clarify the issue, ok?

And l'll get on it...

OT so appreciates you...

Bono, from U2 'gets' it...

See external...

"At the center of all religions" Bono tells his skeptical interviewer, "is the idea of Karma. You know, what you put out comes back to you: an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, or in physics-in physical laws-every action is met by an equal or an opposite one."

He continues below...

"And yet," he says, "along comes this idea called Grace to upend all that. . . . Love interrupts, if you like, the consequences of your actions, which in my case is very good news indeed, because I've done a lot of stupid stuff."

Unwilling to divulge the "stuff" in question, Bono admits "I'd be in big trouble if Karma was going to finally be my judge...It doesn't excuse my mistakes, but I'm holding out for Grace. I'm holding out that Jesus took my sins onto the Cross, because I know who I am, and I hope I don't have to depend on my own religiosity."

Later in the interview, the musician seems to take a page from C.S. Lewis, the famous British author and theologian, who wrote the famous "Lord, liar, or lunatic" discourse. He says, "Look, the secular response to the Christ story always goes like this: He was a great prophet, obviously a very interesting guy, had a lot to say along the lines of other great prophets, be they Elijah, Muhammad, Buddha, or Confucius."

"But actually", he says, "Christ doesn't allow you that. He doesn't let you off that hook."

"Christ says, No," Bono continues. "I'm not saying I'm a teacher, don't call me teacher. I'm not saying I'm a prophet. I'm saying: 'I'm the Messiah.' I'm saying: 'I am God incarnate.' . . . So what you're left with is either Christ was who He said He was-the Messiah-or a complete nutcase. . . . The idea that the entire course of civilization for over half of the globe could have its fate changed and turned upside-down by a nutcase, for me that's farfetched."

Source: www.ewtn.com...


Skeptics, I, too, experienced that GRACE....it is free for the taking!!

OT

Originally posted by OldThinker
reply to post by shihulud

 

shihulud,

What's up big boy? !

In Dallas having Italian...

Hope all is well..

Pls give me some time, after I get bak, settle down..ok?

Pls clarify the issue, ok?

And l'll get on it...

OT so appreciates you...

Feeling quite sound, forgive my ranting as sometimes I sit at ATS with a few cans of the amber nectar and by the time it gets to nearly silly o'clock (about 2 am) I'm slightly pished and start to get quite worked up.

But to digress in Matthew 27:9-10
Then was fulfilled what has been spoken by the prophet Jeremiah, saying “And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him on whom a price has been said by some of the sons of Israel, and they gave them for the potter’s field, as the Lord directed me.”

When actually the prophecy was found nowhere in Jeremiah but in
Zechariah 11:12-13
"And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter..."

Now forgive me if I'm wrong but isn't the bible supposed to be infallible and the word of god?


G

reply to post by shihulud




S, No problem, thanks for the transparency….’amber nectar’ huh? Sounds great !

OK, good question…here’s my research…

Source quoted below…www.greatcom.org...

“In the Gospel according to Matthew, Judas Iscariot, after betraying Jesus, feels remorse because of his evil deeds, throws the betrayal money into the sanctuary, and commits suicide. Matthew goes on to relate how this money was taken by the priests and used to buy a potter's field.
Matthew concludes:
Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremiah, the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued...and gave them for the potter's field, as the Lord appointed me (27:9,10, KJV).
The problem is that verse 9 attributes the prophecy to Jeremiah, when it appears that it was Zechariah who gave this prediction. When Matthew 27:9 is examined closely in light of Zechariah 11:12,13, it is clear that this prophecy is the one fulfilled. Why then does Matthew assign it to Jeremiah?
A possible solution is Jeremiah's priority in the Talmud. 43/362 Jeremiah was placed first in the ancient rabbinic order of the prophetic books. Matthew was then quoting from the collection of the books of the prophets, and cited Jeremiah since it was the first and therefore the identifier. The same thing is done in Luke 24:44, where Psalms is used when the entire third division of the Hebrew canon is in mind.
Perhaps the best solution would be to understand that Matthew is combining two prophecies, one from Jeremiah and one from Zechariah, with a mention of only one author in the composite reference, namely Jeremiah, the major prophet.
Zechariah says nothing concerning the buying of a field, but Jeremiah states that the Lord appointed him to buy a field (Jeremiah 32:6-8) as a solemn guarantee by the Lord Himself that fields and vineyards would be bought and sold in the land in a future day (Jeremiah 32:15,43ff).
One of the fields which God had in mind was the potter's field. Zechariah adds the details of the thirty pieces of silver and the money thrown down on the floor of the Temple. So we see that Matthew takes the details of both prophets, but stresses Jeremiah as the one who foretold these events.
Dr. J. E. Rosscup of Talbot Seminary adheres to a view consistent with the above. In classroom lectures he pointed out:
Matthew felt that two passages were fulfilled, one typical (Jeremiah 19:1-13) and one explicit (Zechariah 11:13), and mentions only one author in the composite reference, a practice that sometimes occurred, according to Robert Gundry. 32/124-25
John N. Cool also concludes that Matthew used Zechariah chiefly, but had Jeremiah 19 prominently in mind as well, especially due to its theme of judgment on Israel.
Cool says,
Both (valley, Jeremiah 19; field, Matthew 27) become burial grounds and both their names are changed to remind the people of God's judgment. [This is] confirmed by the traditional location of the potter's field ... within the valley of Hinnom where Jeremiah pronounced his judgment by changing its name to 'valley of slaughter.'Second, Matthew's consistent use of Isaiah and Jeremiah in his formula quotations reminds his readers of God's salvation and judgment for His people. Isaiah was associated with salvation, Jeremiah ... with judgment. The use of tote in Matthew 2:17 and 27:9 instead of the purposeful Hina or Houtos found in other formula introductions also underscores the judgment motif by referring to Christ's enemies as fulfilling prophecy.
Gundry says that Matthew's reference to Jeremiah in the introduction formula makes certain that readers will take note of the connection with Jeremiah 19, which might be overlooked”

S, Another source…..cat.inist.fr...…….says:
“The source of the fulfilment quotation in Matt 27,9-10 must be Zech 11,13, but the biblical text is distorted to a degree that is unparalleled in the other fulfilment quotations, and Matthew ascribes the quotation to Jeremiah. Another difficulty is that the quotation seems to have influenced the context to a much larger extent than in the case of the other fulfilment quotations. A careful analysis of the text shows that the peculiar textual form can be explained in a relatively simple way. The influence of the quotation on Matt 27,3-8 is limited, and is best ascribed to Matthew's redaction. After all, this fulfilment quotation appears to be less exceptional than it is sometimes supposed to be.”

S, I also found this question online in other places as well…source…junaman.wordpress.com...

I had never heard this question before…thanks for raising it….I’m going to tilt to my first reference, ok?

OT honored for the discussion...what did you think of Bono's piece?

S, Here's another source I found...www.new-life.net...

Allow New Testament Citations of the Old Testament to be Less Than Exact Quotations. - Critics often point to variations in the NT's use of the OT Scriptures as a proof of error. They seem to forget that the OT was written in Hebrew, the NT in Greek. Translations from one language to another can and often do differ without being in error.

In addition, critics forget that every citation need not be an exact quotation. It was then (and still is today) a perfectly acceptable literary style to give the true essence of a statement without using precisely the exact words. The same meaning can be conveyed without using the exact same verbal expressions.

Sometimes the New Testament authors will cite only part of the OT text (Jesus did this in Luke 4:18-19, citing Isaiah 61:1-2). Sometimes the NT summarizes the OT text (Matthew 2:6). Others blend two texts into one (Matthew 27:9-10). Sometimes they change the speaker (compare Zechariah 12:10 with John 19:37). This was perfectly acceptable Jewish rabbinic practice. We must not insist that the NT writers have to stick to 21st century college rules for quotation (when they did not even know what 21st century college rules would be)!

Thoughts, sir?

OT

ps: potential answer here...www.christiancourier.com...

[edit on 17-9-2008 by OldThinker]

[edit on 17-9-2008 by OldThinker]

Originally posted by GMoney1
reply to post by shihulud

 

For my part I would have long since become exasperated by the lack of faith being displayed here. To deny the existence of an intelligent organizerof universal orderliness, would be as ludicrous as BELIEVING THAT THE VERY EXISTENCE OF CYBER SPACE CAME ABOUT BY CHANCE.!! No one with an ounce of intelligence could ascribe to such a belief. Yet you hold on to such views with great pride and reverence.

No one with an ounce of intelligence would think that the Bible is the word of God. But you are Christians and you cannot help yourself.

EDIT: To Shihulud and noobfun: If you guys only take into account the "Jeremiah/Zechariah" FARCE that OT concocted and the FACT that the Christians give a total blind eye to the "NOAH" argument, you realise that you guys are wasting your time?

[edit on 18-9-2008 by Lannock]

reply to post by Lannock


Lannock,

Hi, we've not chatted before I don't think?

Welcome to my humble thread...

Please give OT a shot on that Noah problem, ok?


What are the specfics?

OT curious...

Well, here you go…OT’s got some more linkages from the Old Testament and the New Testament…proving JC IS THE ONE!

Will the skeptics continue to ignore them????

Prediction: "Elijah" would come just prior to Jesus
OT: Malachi 4:5 "See, I will send you the prophet Elijah before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes.
OT: Malachi 3:1 "See, I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come," says the LORD Almighty.
OT: Isaiah 40:3-5 “A voice of one calling: "In the desert prepare the way for the LORD ; make straight in the wilderness a highway for our God. 4 Every valley shall be raised up, every mountain and hill made low; the rough ground shall become level, the rugged places a plain. 5 And the glory of the LORD will be revealed, and all mankind together will see it. For the mouth of the LORD has spoken."
NT Fulfillment: Matthew 3:1-3 “ In those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the Desert of Judea 2 and saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near." 3 This is he who was spoken of through the prophet Isaiah: "A voice of one calling in the desert, 'Prepare the way for the Lord, make straight paths for him.'"
NT: Matthew 11:10-14 This is the one about whom it is written: "'I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way before you.' 11 I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12 From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it. 13 For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John. 14 And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come.
NT: Mark 1:2-3 “It is written in Isaiah the prophet: "I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way"-- 3 "a voice of one calling in the desert, 'Prepare the way for the Lord, make straight paths for him.'"
NT: Luke 1:17 “And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous--to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."
NT: Luke 3:2-6 “during the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John son of Zechariah in the desert. 3 He went into all the country around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 4 As is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet: "A voice of one calling in the desert, 'Prepare the way for the Lord, make straight paths for him. 5 Every valley shall be filled in, every mountain and hill made low. The crooked roads shall become straight, the rough ways smooth. 6 And all mankind will see God's salvation.'"
NT: Luke 7:27 “This is the one about whom it is written: "'I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way before you.'
NT: John 1:23 “John replied in the words of Isaiah the prophet, "I am the voice of one calling in the desert, 'Make straight the way for the Lord.'"

Prediction: Jesus would be born in Bethlehem
OT: Micah 5:1 “Marshal your troops, O city of troops, for a siege is laid against us. They will strike Israel's ruler on the cheek with a rod. 2 "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times."
NT: Matthew 2:1 “After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem
NT: Matthew 2:6 "'But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are by no means least among the rulers of Judah; for out of you will come a ruler who will be the shepherd of my people Israel.'"
NT: Luke 2:4-7 “So Joseph also went up from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to Bethlehem the town of David, because he belonged to the house and line of David. 5 He went there to register with Mary, who was pledged to be married to him and was expecting a child. 6 While they were there, the time came for the baby to be born, 7 and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son. She wrapped him in cloths and placed him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn.
NT: John 7:42 “Does not the Scripture say that the Christ will come from David's family and from Bethlehem, the town where David lived?"

Prediction: Jesus would be born of a virgin and called Immanuel
OT: Isaiah 7:14 “Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.
NT: Matthew 1:18-2:1 “This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit. 19 Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly. 20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins." 22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23 "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" --which means, "God with us." 24 When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25 But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus. 2:1 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem
NT: Luke 1:26-35 “In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27 to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary. 28 The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you." 29 Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30 But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God. 31 You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end." 34 "How will this be," Mary asked the angel, "since I am a virgin?" 35 The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

Prediction: Jesus would proclaim a Jubilee
OT: Isaiah 58:6 "Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen: to loose the chains of injustice and untie the cords of the yoke, to set the oppressed free and break every yoke?
OT: Isaiah 61:1 “The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners,
NT: Luke 4:16-21 “He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. And he stood up to read. 17 The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written: 18 "The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed, 19 to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor." 20 Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him, 21 and he began by saying to them, "Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing."

Prediction: Kings would bow down to Jesus
OT: Psalms 72:10-11 “The kings of Tarshish and of distant shores will bring tribute to him; the kings of Sheba and Seba will present him gifts. 11 All kings will bow down to him and all nations will serve him.
NT: Matthew 2:1-11 “After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem 2 and asked, "Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star in the east and have come to worship him." 3 When King Herod heard this he was disturbed, and all Jerusalem with him. 4 When he had called together all the people's chief priests and teachers of the law, he asked them where the Christ was to be born. 5 "In Bethlehem in Judea," they replied, "for this is what the prophet has written: 6 "'But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are by no means least among the rulers of Judah; for out of you will come a ruler who will be the shepherd of my people Israel.'" 7 Then Herod called the Magi secretly and found out from them the exact time the star had appeared. 8 He sent them to Bethlehem and said, "Go and make a careful search for the child. As soon as you find him, report to me, so that I too may go and worship him." 9 After they had heard the king, they went on their way, and the star they had seen in the east went ahead of them until it stopped over the place where the child was. 10 When they saw the star, they were overjoyed. 11 On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold and of incense and of myrrh.

Prediction: Bethlehem's children would be killed at Jesus' Coming
OT: Genesis 35:19-20 “So Rachel died and was buried on the way to Ephrath (that is, Bethlehem). 20 Over her tomb Jacob set up a pillar, and to this day that pillar marks Rachel's tomb.
OT: Genesis 48:7 “As I was returning from Paddan, to my sorrow Rachel died in the land of Canaan while we were still on the way, a little distance from Ephrath. So I buried her there beside the road to Ephrath" (that is, Bethlehem).
OT: Jeremiah 31:15 “This is what the LORD says: "A voice is heard in Ramah, mourning and great weeping, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because her children are no more."
NT: Matthew 2:16-18 “When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi. 17 Then what was said through the prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled: 18 "A voice is heard in Ramah, weeping and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because they are no more."

Prediction: Jesus would live in Egypt
OT: Hosea 11:1 "When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.
NT: Matthew 2:14-15 “So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt, 15 where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: "Out of Egypt I called my son."

Prediction: Jesus would live in Galilee
OT: Isaiah 9:1-2 “Nevertheless, there will be no more gloom for those who were in distress. In the past he humbled the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, but in the future he will honor Galilee of the Gentiles, by the way of the sea, along the Jordan-- 2 The people walking in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned.
NT: Matthew 4:13-16 “Leaving Nazareth, he went and lived in Capernaum, which was by the lake in the area of Zebulun and Naphtali-- 14 to fulfill what was said through the prophet Isaiah: 15 "Land of Zebulun and land of Naphtali, the way to the sea, along the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles-- 16 the people living in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned."

Originally posted by OldThinker
reply to post by JesusisTruth

 

Great posts my man!!! You spent a lot of time here...good job!!

Agree with most...

I would be irresponsible to not share my relationship with Jesus...I'm commanded to content for the faith and to love...check out John 13:34, 25---this is my life's anthem...it's on my signature below...

How will they know, ,unless someone tells them...and who will tell them, unless someone sends one to teach? paraphrase, I think Romans?

OT

Hey dude, how goes? got ur U2U, why doesn't U2U let me know I got mail? or if it does, what does it look like?


So, oldthinker dude, I have to respectfully ask - if you have a relationship with the Jesusgod, why do you need a bible.

It is common knowledge that the bible is full of errors and contradictions etc so why do you need something that is flawed when you have perfection to answer all your questions ?

Would you be kind enough to ask jesus some questions on behalf of other people ? This would surely save all the hassle debate and quarreling (even wars) by getting a straight answer instead of trying to make sense of a nonsensical book with questionable authorship.

U2U-----It should be another color along your menu bar on the top...mine is burgandy and says U2U! when I have a new note...I'll get back to the rest of your post after my STEAK dinner in DALLAS, TX, USA...should I get the T-Bone or Porterhouse?

OT hungry!!! ????