atheists stick their head in the sand/ignore probability!

Old thinker you are a good soul. You will not persuade these souls that are atheist. Realize that first, infact you might make them more rebellious.

Athiest that are open to truth and miracles are rare, you might run into on this thread the ones with no openess at all because many don't want God to be real.

The fact is that not only did he fullfill prophecy but he worked many miracles. There was also a prophecy about this messiah establishing a church and faith that would spread throughout the world. It prophecied holy communion in Malachias. It has produced 2000 years strait of saints who raised the dead, worked countless miracles and so forth.

so basically any way you look at it, is that he was a real man with real apostles, and also many saints shared in his stigmata for souls and actually talked to Jesus himself on earth. He is the messiah in the flesh prophecied in the OT.


Let these people believe what they will, they won't change. If they have openess then they will once they see the miracles to come in the (near) future after WW3.

I can see you are a good person and did this post out of love for their souls but realize that the hardness from within only gets harder through headlines like that.


and the way you test their sincerity is this. When you read qoutes like this.


" They make religion "

You see they give no chance of God founding a religion, a revealed truth accompanied by millions of miracles and saints. This is the type that gives nothing a chance, and if they were open they would of said.


" Which I believe but (don't know for sure) to make a religion )



peace.

[edit on 10-9-2008 by JesusisTruth]

Originally posted by JesusisTruth

Athiest that are open to truth and miracles are rare, you might run into on this thread the ones with no openess at all because many don't want God to be real.

yes they are as rare as a devoute christian that are willing to openly and honestly look at the possability god may not be real and any evidence the bible may be wrong

they have no openess because they want god to be real


pot kettel ...

i can understand OT its part of your religeon to spread your beliefs but jesus taught love compassion and equality to all men

your title and first 3 lines seem a little lacking in those


ok now jesus the son of god came to earth 2000 years ago, in his time here he gave us the word of god, and with the new word of god the evilness of mankind goes forth into a brave new word changing a bit here and a bit there

we know it has been changed the only question is was it changed by good men or bad men, it was changed by people who had never met jesus never spoken to jesus and were in a position to deny anything they want and hunt down and punish anyone teaching the wrong kind of christian message

so with the changes made by men who wernt jesus or didnt have a direct link to jesus is it still the message of jesus how much did they change

how much did the change impact on the religeon as a whole (oaks trees from acorns grow)

thats why using the same book as evidence of its self doesnt work, if the message was real then the one we have now is not the one we had then

thats why i cant believe the teachings of the new testament or the many differing faces of the christian church they almost all trace thier history back to the changers of the message


do you attend church regularily?
when did you last pray?
where did you pray?
what did you pray for?
how did you pray?

answer those honestly this is how youve been taught, now go check in the bible, twice jesus teaches how and what to pray for, and once he teaches where to pray now compare how much like his teachings your answers are





[edit on 10-9-2008 by noobfun]

It's easier to be open to a God then to be open to nothing which athiesm is.

I'm talking about open to the existence of God, not the idea of nothing. Furthermore noob. I have read about countless saints miracles. God worked them himself. I have seen these miracles in my own life.

like I said, usually miracles are proof enough not including nature, but this is the X factor which enhances our faith further and thus is why it's almost impossible for us to be open to the belief in nothing.

I am open to respect to others, no doubt, but the things I seen personally. I couldn't disbelieve if I wanted to.


peacw.

noob. God said he would found a church, in the Ot and the NT... Also holy communion is prophecied in the OT and taught in the NT in corinthians.

this is why we go to church, to partake in it. And christ said you proclaim his death everytime you do this until he comes back.

The church is the bride of christ.

now as for praying, I have no clue what you are getting at.

Originally posted by JesusisTruth

It's easier to be open to a God then to be open to nothing which athiesm is.

I'm talking about open to the existence of God, not the idea of nothing. Furthermore noob. I have read about countless saints miracles. God worked them himself. I have seen these miracles in my own life.

like I said, usually miracles are proof enough not including nature, but this is the X factor which enhances our faith further and thus is why it's almost impossible for us to be open to the belief in nothing.

I am open to respect to others, no doubt, but the things I seen personally. I couldn't disbelieve if I wanted to.


peacw.

atheism isnt a void a nothing, if you denounced god right now no longer believed in him 100% your still you dispite your good and bad points yes you would still be you .. scarry huh ^_^

a sculpter chips away at the stone to reveal the sculpture hidden within

i am me, im a good person, i help people in need i treat people fairly(most of the time)

the differance i do it becasue i want to, i dont have to follow rules on fear of unworldly suffering i dont have to beg forgivness for a simple thought no matter how good or bad it was and thought/imagination is the true sin of man god killed us all (well almost) becasue of it

you dont need religeon to be a good person, it many cases it gets in the way of it

but as an athiest i get to see my origins in darwinism

and this makes life anything but a void

i wake up every morning knowing every living breathing person on this planet is a relative of mine im related to them all black white yellow green now matter what religeon or lack of they follow

not only that but the annoying cat that sleeps on my bed and harrasses me for food when she wakes me up in the mornings a relative too every creature big or small cute or ugly tasty or poisonous is related to me and it all came from a simple cell an organsim i cant even see without equipment

all because of those many little single cells going around doing thier own thing changing as thier climate changed some getting bigger some staying the same to do other things and give a healthy chunk of time we get all this a planet full of birds and fish and insects and mammals and fungus and everything its amazing just simply amazing

and it gets even better we dont know what everything is yet and how its going to change in the future and thats just brilliant

atheism is nothing? its far from nothing its everything

Originally posted by riley
I've read books where psychics have predicted things and then they came true.

Does that stop those books being fiction?

Since when has math been 'fictitious'?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by riley
I've read books where psychics have predicted things and then they came true.

Does that stop those books being fiction?

Since when has math been 'fictitious'?

He didn't use math.. he just posted a whole heap of bible quotes. If they really proved anything there would be no such thing as jews or muslems.

[edit on 10-9-2008 by riley]

Originally posted by JesusisTruth

noob. God said he would found a church, in the Ot and the NT... Also holy communion is prophecied in the OT and taught in the NT in corinthians.

this is why we go to church, to partake in it. And christ said you proclaim his death everytime you do this until he comes back.

The church is the bride of christ.

now as for praying, I have no clue what you are getting at.

yes its in corninthians 3 times, all 3 times said by men to men


and there are better retellings in other gospels but in everyone that jesus is involved directly he says to his disciples to do this to remeber him, he doesnt say take and teach this to all

he says "you remeber this and do it to honour me"

not the word of jesus but the word of man speaking for him at a latter date

im curious where its prophesied in the OT got a chapter and verse please?
and if its the passover your talking about they are very different things and done for very different reasons

one is a cup of blood used to protect from gods wrath

the other is a representation of the life blood of jesus drinking it in some way they absorb his goodness (kinda like the old canablise the enemy for thier strength deal) and no that isnt my interpretation its the churches (well maybe not the canabalism bit) its representation of jesus and taking a part of his goodness into them selves not an actual representation of a cup of jesus blood

so the prophecy falls down as a bit similar but nothing like, as it wasnt a prophesy in the first place until someone made it one much later

the praying thing you might be a little confused but meah thats fine when i say write down your answers to those questions i dont neccessarily mean on here just a piece of paper will do



[edit on 10-9-2008 by noobfun]

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by riley
I've read books where psychics have predicted things and then they came true.

Does that stop those books being fiction?

Since when has math been 'fictitious'?

Maths? are math teachers/professors all psychic?

or all psychics extremly good at maths?

if a psychic predicts the future it becomes maths?

im confused about this one truely i am


[edit on 10-9-2008 by noobfun]

Hi again all!

Skeptics and Believers, Thanks so very much for posting on this thread. Heading off to a mlb game now, trying to let all know I'll post and respond to each reply later. Really appreciate all interest.

OT

ps: Moderators, I'm writing this from the Treo, very time consumming with my fat fingers...for some reason my laptop will not load this page, as of this morning...any ideas? Any help would be appreciated...is there tech help available? Thanks so much!

reply to post by riley


That's not what I asked. I asked how math made Physics books fictitious as the poster claims.

Secondly, I don't know if the OP used any math, his post was cut off by a moderator for length.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by riley

 

That's not what I asked. I asked how math made Physics books fictitious as the poster claims.

Secondly, I don't know if the OP used any math, his post was cut off by a moderator for length.

hahahahha do me a favour re-read the post ;-)

he said psychic's as in mental powery type people making predictions

not physics mentally type people making predictions of what will happen if they do something silly

Noob fun, brother you have much to learn as do I, but you miss the point.


" You don't need religion to be good "

I never said that you did. But you see what faith and religion are, are what we (credit) our goodness from. A source. When I was a kid I was lazy as hell, didn't want to work, threw pencils and things at my mother and cursed her out, I had a huge lack of love, I didn't want to help jack **** before I was 20 when I (first) learned about Christ, I never grew up religious.

There has been a complete 360 turn around in me and my heart since I learned about Christ from his teachings. I credit (since I do believe I come from him), all my goodness comes from him.

He implants or infuses love into our souls.

let me give an example.

Say there is a bug on the ground. Some people smash it at will and don't give a crap. The ones who don't have a grace which God instills in people, it's called compassion.

Not everybody has this, evil people everywhere. So God instills or infuses this love into us. I know this for a fact from what ive experienced personally.

So i credit all my goodness to him and without him I am nothing.


But some people run on pride, which means they are constantly built up on how good they are and run on self which blocks the ability to see Gods graces in a soul.


I never said religion makes you a good person, I believe God does through religion and through other means such as dilligence ect...



Now as for communion in the OT.

Malachias 1:11 prophecied the spreading of communion.

And as for men speaking to men. paul was a real apostle and worked many miracles. Christ also said (do this in memeory of me in all save one (I think) the gospels at the last supper.

Scientists have even tested eucharistic miracles In Italy and so forth which have proven to be real blood from over 1300 years old...

what i have felt communion do to my soul personally I cannot explain in this forum, it's unexplainable...

You are free to choose whatever you want to believe, just keep an open mind..

just to go alittle further on religion makes you good.

We don't embrace God because we believe he makes you good, which if you have humility you will realize this, but we embrace God because we have faith and believe in a creator, which is what faith is, and after this we give (all) credit to him.

If I have love and am a believer, yet I say it comes from me, then I put myself above the one who made me.

I really see a lack of understanding in this culture, truly understanding is a grace. You wacth people like Bill mahr and he says the same thing, yet it's lack of understanding speaking.

Originally posted by JesusisTruth

But some people run on pride, which means they are constantly built up on how good they are and run on self which blocks the ability to see Gods graces in a soul.


I never said religion makes you a good person, I believe God does through religion and through other means such as dilligence ect...



Now as for communion in the OT.

Malachias 1:11 prophecied the spreading of communion.

And as for men speaking to men. paul was a real apostle and worked many miracles. Christ also said (do this in memeory of me in all save one (I think) the gospels at the last supper.

Scientists have even tested eucharistic miracles In Italy and so forth which have proven to be real blood from over 1300 years old...

what i have felt communion do to my soul personally I cannot explain in this forum, it's unexplainable...

You are free to choose whatever you want to believe, just keep an open mind..

i went the other way, brought up in a religeous home, i was even next door neighbours with my preacher

went off the rails a bit, teenage hormones and family issues

settled back down about 20-21ish

that comment about pride looks like it could be a sly dig ;-)

when i say im a good person im not meaning look at me i am good *waves banner* people descirbe me as a good person what ever that means to them,

it was more of without religeon you dont suddenly become and evil psychopathic rapist, you pretty much stay exactly who you are

i just prefered to go the happy way with it


im sorry you did mean

Malachai 1, 1:11 as found in the king james right?

1:11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts.

from the rising of the sun unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the none jews, and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering*: for my name shall be great among the heathen, said the LORD of hosts

*12 small cake to be placed in 2 rows of 6 and dabbed with frankencence and only eaten by the sons of Aaronn

so either your jewish or your declaring yourself a heathen in gods eyes? which means he is happy you fear him and think he is great but your not a jew so your not getting saved from hell ....... especially as your eating those bread cakes your not entitled to as your not the son's of Aaronn for who the offering is most holy

heathen means litteraly pagan as in someone who does not worship me but worships another or worships me in the wrong way (not me personally but me as in god, not that i think im god but you know what i mean so stop it now!)


yes at the last supper is when jesus said to the desciples do this to remember me

he said it to them, he in no way shape or form said or hinted that it should be taught to others as a religeous practice

Originally posted by noobfun

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by riley

 

That's not what I asked. I asked how math made Physics books fictitious as the poster claims.

Secondly, I don't know if the OP used any math, his post was cut off by a moderator for length.

hahahahha do me a favour re-read the post ;-)

he said psychic's as in mental powery type people making predictions

not physics mentally type people making predictions of what will happen if they do something silly

Oooops, lol.

That's hilarious.

I did read it 100% wrong.

Alright, I said in the OP that research would need to be done as an integral part of any skeptics search…one truth I believe about the Bible is God uses it to convict of sin, righteousness and judgment…He often does this through circumstances in people’s lives and when life has us playing handball on a curve, these postings will be a record for one to refer to, or stumble upon.

I’ll try and get to each of the other replies now…thanks again for contributing here!! Here’s some more specifics of fulfilled prophecy…the first line is the Old Testament quote and the second line is the New Testament fulfillment…enjoy!

"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Ps. 22:1).
----Jesus quoted this as his own, on the cross (Matt 27:46).


"I am despised of the people. All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shake the head, saying, He trusted on the Lord that he would deliver him: let him deliver him" (Ps. 22:6-8).
----Israel despised Jesus and mocked him (Luke 23:35; 8:53); they shook their heads (Matt. 27:39), and said this as He hung on the cross (Matt 27:43).


"My tongue cleaves to my jaws...they pierced my hands and my feet" (Ps. 22:15,16).
----This was fulfilled in Christ's thirst on the cross (John 19:28). The piercing of hands and feet refers to the physical method of crucifixion used.


"They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture" (Ps. 22:18).
----The precise fulfillment is found in Matt. 27:35.


"I am become a stranger unto my brethren, and am an alien unto my mother's children. For the zeal of your house hath eaten me up" (Ps. 69:8,9).
----Christ's feelings of estrangement from his Jewish brethren and his own family (John 7:3-5, Matt.12:47-49). This is quoted in John 2:17.



"They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink" (Ps. 69:21).
----This happened while Christ was on the cross (Matt. 27:34).


"As a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth" (Isa. 53:7)
----Christ, the Lamb of God, remained silent during his trial (Matt. 27: 12,14).


"He made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death" (Isa. 53:9).
----Jesus was crucified along with wicked criminals (Matt. 27:38), but was buried in the tomb of a rich man (Matt. 27:57-60).

Originally posted by babloyi
reply to post by OldThinker

 

Hey OT!

While I am not an atheist either, I think what Badge was getting at is that you are talking about atheists, yet the proof you offer in your post is about prophecies showing that Jesus was the Messiah. Even if it were true, it would not necessarily be 'Proof of God' to atheists. Be that as it may, while I have no problem believing that Jesus was the prophesied Messiah, your proofs are pretty weak:

As another poster pointed out earlier, everyone is a descendant of Eve. If you meant it in a way that Jesus had no human father, it still wouldn't make sense because Jesus was a descendant of Adam as well (through his mother?)

Also, how can Jesus be a 'Prophet like Moses' and at the same time be 'Son of God'? Speaking of which, I better ask you, since it is not always the same, depending on which Christian I ask: Is Jesus God as well as Son of God, or is he only the Son of God? Or is he neither, and the Father is greater than him?
Besides, personally, I don't see how Psalms can be taken as a prophecy for anything...it's just songs that apparently David wrote, inspired by God, or David asking for God's help, or saying something to God. He makes no mention of it being a prophecy, or talking about the future.

Anyhow...is it really honest to take every single mention of 'piercing', 'bread' 'wine' 'bones', etc. out of context and use it as a supposed prophecy of the Messiah? Also, it is worthy of noting that even if all the prophecies were real prophecies, the writers of the New Testament could have just combed over the Old Testament and made references to prophecies being fulfilled in their own books. And even if there are some prophecies that are not fulfilled, the Christians have a way out, saying that 'Jesus will do that in his second coming'.

Babloyi! Great to hear from you, hope all is well!

Don't listen to Christians as your PRIMARY source of information on God, etc...

Thanks for the post...you best point was asking about who Jesus is...John 1:1 says, in the beginning was the WORD, the WORD was WITH God, and the WORD WAS God."

The answer is................????...................HE is all of the above!

Son of Man = Human, became FLESH, see John 1:14

God = "...Word WAS God..."

Son of God = "...Word was WITH God..."


Again great seeing your avatar over here!!

OT out

[edit on 11-9-2008 by OldThinker]

Originally posted by GMoney1
Badge01 Interesting post, yet I seem to have gotten lost as to what the message is you are trying to convey. Please elaborate as to the relevance to this discussion? I will say that Old thinker has put forth a very lucid, and clear argument that at this point no professed Atheist has been able to effectively refute. Truth is able to stand on it's own, against all attacks. No matter how it's assailed, at the end of the day, it will eventually be vindicated.

Just as Jesus Christ himself was slandered and falsely accused. None of it was able to withstand the test of time, and the scrutiny of history. Old Thinker, I am interested in reading more...

GMoney1,

Can I borrow some? Ha! Ha!

Appreciate you taking time to support...

OT

reply to post by noobfun


Noobfun...hey, what's up?

You said "...do you attend church regularily?
when did you last pray?
where did you pray?
what did you pray for?
how did you pray?

answer those honestly this is how youve been taught, now go check in the bible, twice jesus teaches how and what to pray for, and once he teaches where to pray now compare how much like his teachings your answers are

=======

Answer-I go to church on Sunday mornings only, probably three times a month, I last prayed @ 5:18pm today, I prayed in my closet/well living room, I prayed for you!, I prayed to myself, quietly.

How's I do/measure up?

Thanks

OT