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atheists stick their head in the sand/ignore probability!

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posted on Sep, 9 2008 @ 09:35 PM
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ATHEISTS STICK THEIR HEAD IN THE SAND/IGNORE PROBABILITY!

OT ready for the battle, please bring it on!!!!!!!

SEE BELOW…

= = = = = = =

Skeptics,

Sorry, this will be a long post, but it is imperative we are thorough as possible…this is a record (on ATS) for readers to review for many years to come…

Atheists, I know many of you are great researchers, and OT respects that…but you are going to have to do much reading here…if you want to contribute in an intellectual way…

BACKGROUND: OT was going to a Billy Graham Meeting in Washington D.C., back in the day, probably in the 80’s, as I recall…we were walking down the street, hundreds of us….

And….

A fellow was walking in the opposite direction…

One guy, mind you…

And he said to me…”where are ALL OF YOU going?”

I replied, “The Billy Graham Crusade!”

He said, “oh well…sorry…I’m Jewish!”

I yelled back, because he was down the road, now….”SO IS JESUS!”

Jesus of Nazareth, was/is Jewish, in HUMAN form…and his descendants had SO MUCH TO SAY ABOUT HIM….

WAY WAY….BEFORE THE FACT!!!!!

Yes, way before the fact…

See below…

And please put your stats, on the PROBABILITY of this, ok??

Jesus fulfilled over 60 predictions way before He was born…here’s a few to review….

Atheists, why do you deny, or at least ignore…this evidence??????????

====

The Messiah will be a descendant of Eve
OLD TESTAMENT PREDICTION: Genesis 3:15
NEW TESTAMENT FULFILLMENT: Galatians 4:4

The Messiah will be a descendant of Abraham, through whom everyone on earth will be blessed
OLD TESTAMENT PREDICTION: Genesis 12:3; 18:18
NEW TESTAMENT FULFILLMENT: Acts 3:25,26

The Messiah will be a descendant of Judah
OLD TESTAMENT PREDICTION: Genesis 49:10
NEW TESTAMENT FULFILLMENT: Matthew 1:2 and Luke 3:33

The Messiah will be a prophet like Moses
OLD TESTAMENT PREDICTION: Deuteronomy 18:15-19
NEW TESTAMENT FULFILLMENT: Acts 3:22,23

The Messiah will be the Son of God
OLD TESTAMENT PREDICTION: Psalm 2:7
NEW TESTAMENT FULFILLMENT: Matthew 3:17; Mark 1:11; Luke 3:22

The Messiah will be raised from the dead (resurrected)
OLD TESTAMENT PREDICTION: Psalm 16:10,11
NEW TESTAMENT FULFILLMENT: Matthew 28:5-9; Mark 16:6; Luke 24:4-7; John 20:11-16; Acts 1:3 and 2:32

The Messiah crucifixion experience
OLD TESTAMENT PREDICTION: Psalm 22 (contains 11 prophecies—not all listed here)
NEW TESTAMENT FULFILLMENT: Matthew 27:34-50 and John 19:17-30

The Messiah will be sneered at and mocked
OLD TESTAMENT PREDICTION: Psalm 22:7
NEW TESTAMENT FULFILLMENT: Luke 23:11,35-39

The Messiah will be pierced through hands and feet
OLD TESTAMENT PREDICTION: Psalm 22:16
NEW TESTAMENT FULFILLMENT: Luke 23:33 and 24:36-39; John 19:18….20:19-20,24-27

The Messiah’s bones will not be broken (a person’s legs were usually broken after being crucified to speed up their death)
OLD TESTAMENT PREDICTION: Psalm 22:17 and 34:20
NEW TESTAMENT FULFILLMENT: John 19:31-33,36

Men Will Gamble for the Messiah’s clothing
OLD TESTAMENT PREDICTION: Psalm 22:18
NEW TESTAMENT FULFILLMENT: Matthew 27:35; Mark 15:24; Luke 23:34; John 19:23,24

The Messiah will accused by false witnesses
OLD TESTAMENT PREDICTION: Psalm 35:11
NEW TESTAMENT FULFILLMENT: Matthew 26:59,60 and Mark 14:56,57

The Messiah will be hated without a cause
OLD TESTAMENT PREDICTION: Psalm 35:19 and 69:4
NEW TESTAMENT FULFILLMENT: John 15:23-25

The Messiah will be betrayed by a friend
OLD TESTAMENT PREDICTION: Psalm 41:9
NEW TESTAMENT FULFILLMENT: John 13:18,21

The Messiah will ascend to heaven (at the right hand of God)
OLD TESTAMENT PREDICTION: Psalm 68:18
NEW TESTAMENT FULFILLMENT: Luke 24:51; Acts 1:9; 2:33-35; 3:20-21; 5:31,32; 7:55-56; Romans 8:34; Ephesians 1:20,21; Colossians 3:1; Hebrews 1:3; 8:1; 10:12; 12:2; 1 Pet 3:22

The Messiah will be given vinegar and gall to drink
OLD TESTAMENT PREDICTION: Psalm 69:21
NEW TESTAMENT FULFILLMENT: Matthew 27:34; Mark 15:23; John 19:29,30

Great kings will pay homage and tribute to the Messiah
OLD TESTAMENT PREDICTION: Psalm 72:10,11
NEW TESTAMENT FULFILLMENT: Matthew 2:1-11

The Messiah is a “stone the builders rejected” who will become the “head cornerstone”
OLD TESTAMENT PREDICTION: Psalm 118:22,23 and Isaiah 28:16
NEW TESTAMENT FULFILLMENT: Matthew 21:42,43; Acts 4:11; Ephesians 2:20; 1 Peter 2:6-8

The Messiah will be a descendant of David
OLD TESTAMENT PREDICTION: Psalm 132:11 and Jeremiah 23:5,6; 33:15,16
NEW TESTAMENT FULFILLMENT: Luke 1:32,33

The Messiah will be a born of a virgin
OLD TESTAMENT PREDICTION: Isaiah 7:14
NEW TESTAMENT FULFILLMENT: Matthew 1:18-25 and Luke 1:26-35

The Messiah’s first spiritual work will be in Galilee
OLD TESTAMENT PREDICTION: Isaiah 9:1-7
NEW TESTAMENT FULFILLMENT: Matthew 4:12-16

The Messiah will make the blind see, the deaf hear, etc.
OLD TESTAMENT PREDICTION: Isaiah 35:5-6
NEW TESTAMENT FULFILLMENT: Matthew 11:3-6 and John 11:47

The Messiah will be beaten, mocked, and spat upon
OLD TESTAMENT PREDICTION: Isaiah 50:6
NEW TESTAMENT FULFILLMENT: Matthew 26:67 and 27:26-31

The “Gospel according to Isaiah”
OLD TESTAMENT PREDICTION: Isaiah 52:13-53:12
NEW TESTAMENT FULFILLMENT: Matthew, Mark, Luke, John

People will hear and not believe the “arm of the LORD”
OLD TESTAMENT PREDICTION: Isaiah 53:1
NEW TESTAMENT FULFILLMENT: John 12:37,38

The Messiah will be rejected
OLD TESTAMENT PREDICTION: Isaiah 53:3
NEW TESTAMENT FULFILLMENT: Matthew 27:20-25; Mark 15:8-14; Luke 23:18-23; John 19:14,15

The Messiah will be killed
OLD TESTAMENT PREDICTION: Isaiah 53:5-9
NEW TESTAMENT FULFILLMENT: Matthew 27:50; Mark 15:37-39; Luke 23:46; John 19:30

The Messiah will be silent in front of his accusers
OLD TESTAMENT PREDICTION: Isaiah 53:7
NEW TESTAMENT FULFILLMENT: Matthew 26:62,63 and 27:12-14

The Messiah will be buried with the rich
OLD TESTAMENT PREDICTION: Isaiah 53:9
NEW TESTAMENT FULFILLMENT: Matthew 27:59,60; Mark 15:46; Luke 23:52,53; John 19:38-42

The Messiah will be crucified with criminals
OLD TESTAMENT PREDICTION: Isaiah 53:12
NEW TESTAMENT FULFILLMENT: Matthew 27:38; Mark 15:27; Luke 23:32,33




Mod Edit: All Caps – Please Review This Link.


[edit on 9/9/2008 by Mirthful Me]




posted on Sep, 9 2008 @ 09:41 PM
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The Messiah will be a descendant of Eve


According to the bible, aren't we all descendants of Eve?

I'm afraid my reaction to the rest of your thread is this: it isn't really prophecy if a book tells the reader what is going to happen in the next few chapters and explains to the readers what the characters are going to do later on.

P.S. I'm not an atheist.



posted on Sep, 9 2008 @ 09:45 PM
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The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.


The topic seems to be about belief in a supreme being.

The over-long post talks about a specific religious dogma.

I find little or no relation between the two.

What is the OP's motive for this thread? To show his knowledge of Bible quotes?



As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.



posted on Sep, 9 2008 @ 09:46 PM
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reply to post by OldThinker
 


Wow that is a long one. Rather than giving individual reasons for each item, which honestly would have a bunch of repeated answers, I'll just go for a general answer. It's not that athiests ignore probability or have their heads in the sand. It is more along the lines of all of that comes from a man-made book, none of us were there when it was written or put together in it's present form. None of those who did write it/put it together are alive to testify that it is all 100% correct and truthful.

In my mind, and the mind of many others I am sure, it is more probable that someone, or more than one someone, wrote it and put it together just for the heck of it than it is some man in the sky told them to write it. Is it not just as likely that it is just a really good story with really good morals?



posted on Sep, 9 2008 @ 10:22 PM
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The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

Actually, there's far more proof that we should pray to the Tooth Fairy.

After all, I've had at least five documented visits and made about $5 bucks over the years my permanent teeth were coming in.

But, as we grow up, the notion of a fairy sneaking into our room at night seems a bit silly, I suppose.

Yet, it did happen several times, and I was always a light sleeper, even as a kid.

So, why not pray to the Tooth Fairy for good health and maybe help passing a math test? It couldn't hurt.


As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.



posted on Sep, 9 2008 @ 10:24 PM
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Originally posted by Alora



The Messiah will be a descendant of Eve


According to the bible, aren't we all descendants of Eve?

I'm afraid my reaction to the rest of your thread is this: it isn't really prophecy if a book tells the reader what is going to happen in the next few chapters and explains to the readers what the characters are going to do later on.

P.S. I'm not an atheist.



Thanks for the reaction...glad you are not an atheist...

Are you saying Moses, King David and Isaiah knew one another...to the point that they could say, "hey, here's my part, you add to it ok?"

These three lived many many years apart...they did not know one another...history would attest to that, correct?

Glad you took the time to respond...

OT



posted on Sep, 9 2008 @ 10:29 PM
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Originally posted by Badge01

The topic seems to be about belief in a supreme being.

The over-long post talks about a specific religious dogma.

I find little or no relation between the two.

What is the OP's motive for this thread? To show his knowledge of Bible quotes?



Badge01, Hi, thank you for your leadership on ATS, this is a great site...

1) Yes, this thread is about GOD...a supreme being...

2) Yes, the original thread was a LONG one...about GOD...I guess that's religious...

3) Not sure you point there...please elaborate ok?

4) My motivation? To discuss the statistical impossibility of Jesus (or anyone) fulfilling all 60 predictions of the messiah...and yes, I love the bible/scriptures, that's ok with you, I hope?

OT

PS: You have any thoughts on the content of my assertion, here? I'm really interested...



posted on Sep, 9 2008 @ 10:32 PM
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reply to post by OldThinker
 


Your OP seems too circular: the bible prophisized what the bible would state?

As I understand it, the bible has been edited and arranged, plus many of the books were written hundreds of years after the supposed incidents, and I do believe it has been sculpted and shaped to fit a certain agenda.

As far as I am concerned it is not an accurate representation of history.



posted on Sep, 9 2008 @ 10:50 PM
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Originally posted by Badge01
Actually, there's far more proof that we should pray to the Tooth Fairy.

After all, I've had at least five documented visits and made about $5 bucks over the years my permanent teeth were coming in.

But, as we grow up, the notion of a fairy sneaking into our room at night seems a bit silly, I suppose.

Yet, it did happen several times, and I was always a light sleeper, even as a kid.

So, why not pray to the Tooth Fairy for good health and maybe help passing a math test? It couldn't hurt.


OK, seriously...Badge01, you are better than this...

Was the Tooth Fairy's arrival predicted?

Over 60 times?

Did he/she then come and validate those predictions?

Show love?

Heal people?

etc...etc...

It's an insult to discuss this particular post...but you are a moderator, and I give you respect...

OT
Philippians 1:3



posted on Sep, 9 2008 @ 10:54 PM
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Originally posted by Alora
reply to post by OldThinker
 


Your OP seems too circular: the bible prophisized what the bible would state?

As I understand it, the bible has been edited and arranged, plus many of the books were written hundreds of years after the supposed incidents, and I do believe it has been sculpted and shaped to fit a certain agenda.

As far as I am concerned it is not an accurate representation of history.


Is it a stretch?

That an omnipotent (all powerful).....omniscient (all knowing) Being would want to preserve His message, to mankind? To me, no.

He has done a great job preserving his truth....just compare it to other so-called literary items...



posted on Sep, 9 2008 @ 10:59 PM
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reply to post by OldThinker
 

The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.


Well, let's consider the possibility of a -real- Supreme Being.

Going to the oft-cited physics analogy of a two-dimensional world, called 'Flatland'...

To the ultra-flat beings of 'Flatworld'. we 3-D beings would be Supreme Beings to them. We can see inside all of their houses, we can see what they ate for dinner, we can see where they've hidden their porn under the bed. We can do this instantly and without fail, simply by 'looking down', a concept that's completely foreign to them.

Likewise, if we have a Supreme Being, i.e., one who is master of all possible Universes (Multi-verse), who can see all and know all, unaffected by time, he's likely to be a 7th Dimensional Being.

However, this being would have little interest in our praying to him, or making ritual sacrifices. In the same way, we'd be uninterested in the beings from 'Flatland' making offerings to us.

In fact, except for a specific reason, it would be unlikely that any 7th dimensional Being would be concerned about us at all, except as a novelty.

Yet we make up all these religions, which are little more than copies of Sumerian myths and insist we need to follow some arbitrary moral laws, or by reading a book written by other 3-D beings we think we have some proof. Yet, in reality, all of this is probably really inaccurate. Our apprehension of a Supreme Being is probably completely inadequate to the task. It's probably silly to try.

Think of how inadequate any 2-D creature's idea of what a 3-D being (their God) would look like, given they have no concept of a sphere, or 'up' or 'down'.

Just a thought.



As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.


[edit on 9/9/2008 by Badge01]



posted on Sep, 9 2008 @ 11:13 PM
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These prophesies I mentioned in OP were written well before Jesus..see below…

Source: www.biblicaldefense.org...

“The Old Testament was written originally in Hebrew and Aramaic. It consists of thirty-nine separate books written at different times and places between 2000BC and 400BC. The three main extant Old Testament manuscripts are the Masoretic Text, the Dead Sea Scrolls, and the Septuagint.

The Masoretic Text is currently considered the standard Hebrew text. It dates back to about 1010AD.7 It contains the entire Old Testament. Despite its late date, it is considered the purest Hebrew text. No recent manuscript finds have brought suspicion to the Masoretic text. Due to the strict copying techniques of the Masoretes, they have preserved a Hebrew text which essentially duplicates the authoritative texts of Christ's time.

The Dead Sea Scrolls date back to approximately 150-100BC. The Dead Sea Scrolls are the oldest extant Hebrew manuscripts of the Old Testament. These scrolls were found in 1947 in various caves along the northwest coast of the Dead Sea. The Dead Sea Scrolls contain fragments from every Old Testament book except Esther.

The Septuagint is a Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament. The Septuagint dates from 250-150BC. When the Masoretic Text, the Dead Sea Scrolls, and the Septuagint are compared, there is essential agreement between them. The few areas of disagreement do not effect the doctrines contained in the Old Testament; the disagreements are mainly copyist errors and variations in spelling.”



posted on Sep, 9 2008 @ 11:23 PM
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Originally posted by Badge01
reply to post by OldThinker
 


Well, let's consider the possibility of a -real- Supreme Being.

Going to the oft-cited physics analogy of a two-dimensional world, called 'Flatland'...

To the ultra-flat beings of 'Flatworld'. we 3-D beings would be Supreme Beings to them. We can see inside all of their houses, we can see what they ate for dinner, we can see where they've hidden their porn under the bed. We can do this instantly and without fail, simply by 'looking down', a concept that's completely foreign to them.

Likewise, if we have a Supreme Being, i.e., one who is master of all possible Universes (Multi-verse), who can see all and know all, unaffected by time, he's likely to be a 7th Dimensional Being.

However, this being would have little interest in our praying to him, or making ritual sacrifices. In the same way, we'd be uninterested in the beings from 'Flatland' making offerings to us.

In fact, except for a specific reason, it would be unlikely that any 7th dimensional Being would be concerned about us at all, except as a novelty.

Yet we make up all these religions, which are little more than copies of Sumerian myths and insist we need to follow some arbitrary moral laws, or by reading a book written by other 3-D beings we think we have some proof. Yet, in reality, all of this is probably really inaccurate. Our apprehension of a Supreme Being is probably completely inadequate to the task. It's probably silly to try.

Think of how inadequate any 2-D creature's idea of what a 3-D being (their God) would look like, given they have no concept of a sphere, or 'up' or 'down'.

Just a thought.



[edit on 9/9/2008 by Badge01]



Thank you for that!!!!

Here's the good news!!!!!

My God is not a 7th demensional being, He's one who became a real man...to SHOW us how to live...

Please take the time to marinate on these verses...please????

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2He was with God in the beginning.
3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
4In him was life, and that life was the light of men.
5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[a] it.
6There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John.
7He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe.
8He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.
9The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.
10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.
11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God
13children born not of natural descent,[c] nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[d] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.


He became flesh....

Lived among us...

Full of grace....unmerited favor, gave us good stuff, we don't deserve!

Full of Truth...can't deny Him!!!

OT so appreciates this discussion!!!!!!

"He is no fool who gives up what he can not keep!!!!!" Jim Elliott!!!!!!!!!!



posted on Sep, 9 2008 @ 11:34 PM
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reply to post by Badge01
 





What is the OP's motive for this thread? To show his knowledge of Bible quotes?


Is that a straw man, or do you think he is lying in the title?



posted on Sep, 10 2008 @ 12:03 AM
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Badge01 Interesting post, yet I seem to have gotten lost as to what the message is you are trying to convey. Please elaborate as to the relevance to this discussion? I will say that Old thinker has put forth a very lucid, and clear argument that at this point no professed Atheist has been able to effectively refute. Truth is able to stand on it's own, against all attacks. No matter how it's assailed, at the end of the day, it will eventually be vindicated.

Just as Jesus Christ himself was slandered and falsely accused. None of it was able to withstand the test of time, and the scrutiny of history. Old Thinker, I am interested in reading more...



posted on Sep, 10 2008 @ 03:34 AM
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I've read books where psychics have predicted things and then they came true.

Does that stop those books being fiction?

[edit on 10-9-2008 by riley]



posted on Sep, 10 2008 @ 06:01 AM
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reply to post by OldThinker
 

Hey OT!

While I am not an atheist either, I think what Badge was getting at is that you are talking about atheists, yet the proof you offer in your post is about prophecies showing that Jesus was the Messiah. Even if it were true, it would not necessarily be 'Proof of God' to atheists. Be that as it may, while I have no problem believing that Jesus was the prophesied Messiah, your proofs are pretty weak:

As another poster pointed out earlier, everyone is a descendant of Eve. If you meant it in a way that Jesus had no human father, it still wouldn't make sense because Jesus was a descendant of Adam as well (through his mother?)

Also, how can Jesus be a 'Prophet like Moses' and at the same time be 'Son of God'? Speaking of which, I better ask you, since it is not always the same, depending on which Christian I ask: Is Jesus God as well as Son of God, or is he only the Son of God? Or is he neither, and the Father is greater than him?
Besides, personally, I don't see how Psalms can be taken as a prophecy for anything...it's just songs that apparently David wrote, inspired by God, or David asking for God's help, or saying something to God. He makes no mention of it being a prophecy, or talking about the future.

Anyhow...is it really honest to take every single mention of 'piercing', 'bread' 'wine' 'bones', etc. out of context and use it as a supposed prophecy of the Messiah? Also, it is worthy of noting that even if all the prophecies were real prophecies, the writers of the New Testament could have just combed over the Old Testament and made references to prophecies being fulfilled in their own books. And even if there are some prophecies that are not fulfilled, the Christians have a way out, saying that 'Jesus will do that in his second coming'.



posted on Sep, 10 2008 @ 06:10 AM
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reply to post by OldThinker
 


Uhm how does something "coming true" that was written about in the OT and then confirmed to the NT count as evidence for it's legitimacy?

If Bob Lazar wrote a book about his experiences at Area 51 and then I wrote a book saying I also worked at Area 51 and saw the same thing; by your logic, that's proof that it's real.

:bnghd:



posted on Sep, 10 2008 @ 06:44 AM
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reply to post by OldThinker
 



Dear OldThinker,

You have not stated precisely why atheists stick their head in the sand.

It may be that you are sticking your head in the Bible and are blind to other possibilities.



posted on Sep, 10 2008 @ 07:31 AM
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Originally posted by OldThinker
These prophesies I mentioned in OP were written well before Jesus..see below…



yes all the prophesise of jesus were written before him, BUT and heres the big BUT all the evidence was written after him and we arnt really sure how long after or if the people with thier names on the gospel actually wrote it

and we know that stuff has been changed rearranged re-written by the early roman catholic church. The NT is not a complete document. several if not all gospels allowed in to the NT have been shown to have been edited or had sections removed from our finds of older versions of the gospels

all of those predicitions could have been met because of the change, rearrange already mentioned

does your list show that Jesus came and fulfilled all those prophecies proving him self?

or that all those prophecies were fulfilled with a little rearrange, creative retelling of storys to prove jesus had come and saved us?


Gandalf predicted

there would be a great war between men and the dark kind
that unless the ring was destroyed the dark lord would rule all
that at the end of the age the elves would sail to the western land
that the fellowship would face great danger and peril on tier journey
and that Frodo alone could save all that was good

thats just 5 but im sure if i cross referenced the hobbit lotr the silmarilion
and used more then just gandalf i could create a whole raft of other predictions for the future that happen

now they all came true does that mean frodo is also jesus? wait he saved elves dwarf ents and humans not just humans wouldnt that make him better then jesus?

no

plain and simply at the start we are told very loosley what will happen and further in were told about how those things happened

what was written before sets constraints to what comes later


of much more interest then prophosies i found and they came true in the same book, would be prophosies i found that didnt come true

only when you look and find those would you have something to think about and discuss


i dont have my head in the sand but i may have some grit in my shoe is that close enough?



[edit on 10-9-2008 by noobfun]

[edit on 10-9-2008 by noobfun]



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