My father was asked to join....

Originally posted by PinealGlandThoth
Could you not say that Freemasons are moving to make a better world?

You could say that although there is no part of the ritual which admonishes us to 'make the world a better place'. It is more about self improvement and if this leads to you helping others in the wider world, so be it.

What I mean by not telling the whole truth is, what if the "head honchos", (if you will), of the Society of Freemasons

Would you be refering to the yearly elected 'head honchos' for each individual jurisdiction? As they do not set 'policy' as a collusive group each jurisdiction may have vastly differing guidance from year to year and there is no ongoing movement, as you implied earlier, to progress in the same direction as the previous elected Master.

...have a completely different goal in mind which could be anything from world domination to something as petty as pulling the wool over the eyes of the society's members.

Freemasonry is too decentralized to undertake world domination. Furthermore, what purpose do you propose would be the reason for 'pulling the wool over the eyes' of the remainder of the membership?

It is been shown that carrying out this type of evil is possible, just look at what Hitler did in WWII and how easily he pursuaded the masses. I'm talking about the fact that it is possible to pull the wool over a nation or society's eyes to carry out a personal and sinister goal.

Hitler was a dictator who was able to rule without opposition or election once his plans were implemented and his enforcement policies were in place. As I have stated earlier Masonry's leaders are elected for one year and once their term expires they succeeded by another who's decisions may differ vastly from the previous Master's.

Additionally, each jurisdiction must have its edicts voted upon at the yearly communication of the Grand Lodge which ensures that the membership has a full say in which direction each states Grand Lodge undertakes.

Just because someone does good works doesn't mean that person is a good person or is part of a good organization.

No, but I would tend to think that a person who performs good and charitable works is ususally a good and charitable person.

What if the members of that organization were completely and utterly oblivious to the evils their leaders were doing?

Would you care to explain how you think this may be possible considering the parameters I gave you earlier?

what kind of ceremonieso are you asked to perform? Could you describe in detail? This was the main thing my father was concerned with, he said they pay homage to symbols and such. He didn't feel comfortable doing this as he doesn't like any type of idol worship, mild or not. Is this true?

[edit on 17-10-2008 by PinealGlandThoth]

Originally posted by PinealGlandThoth
what kind of ceremonieso are you asked to perform?

They are allegorical morality plays for lack of a better description. They are employed to impart the tenets of the Fraternity upon the willing candidate and to serve as a reminder of his obligations to God, his neighbor and himself.

Could you describe in detail?

No, I took an oath not to reveal the details of the ritual. However, a little searching on the internet may reveal the answers to your question.

This was the main thing my father was concerned with, he said they pay homage to symbols and such.

The symbols and emblems are their to serve as reminders as I stated above. As Masons we only pay homage to God.

He didn't feel comfortable doing this as he doesn't like any type of idol worship, mild or not. Is this true?

No, it is not. There is no worship of any type condoned in lodge. We offer prayer to Diety, but this is the Diety of choice for the individual Mason and their are no recommendations as to which Diety you should consider when performing this duty. To Masons, God is God no matter what you may call God personally. Belief in a sumpreme being is all that is required.

Originally posted by PinealGlandThoth
Who here is a 32nd degree mason? Please tell the truth, there are pertinent questions I would like to ask.

I am a 32nd degree freemason, and I have to tell you this: The first thing you have got to get over is this concept of 32nd degree masons meaning anything.

Degrees in freemasonry do not represent rank beyond the 3rd, and the 1st and 2nd are initiatory degrees everyone goes through. A 32nd degree Freemason has as much power and authority as a 3rd degree mason.

Until you recognize that fact, we're just going to go round and round in circles because your operating off of a presupposition that does not exist.

Originally posted by PinealGlandThoth
what kind of ceremonieso are you asked to perform? Could you describe in detail?

Going through the details of 32 ceremonies is going to take a very long time. Its probably better if you cut to the chase and ask specifically about what ceremony detail you want to know. There is almost nothing I or any other mason can't tell you, and the things we cant say you can find online with 5 minutes of searching.

Originally posted by PinealGlandThoth
This was the main thing my father was concerned with, he said they pay homage to symbols and such. He didn't feel comfortable doing this as he doesn't like any type of idol worship, mild or not. Is this true?

Then he really never looked into what freemasonry about, because there is no "idol worship," mild or otherwise. There is no worship of any kind, actually, since Freemasonry isn't a religion and there is nothing therefore worthy of masonic worship.

But frankly, given your description of the "invitation" you talk about, I highly doubt he was talking to Freemasons to begin with.

reply to post by PinealGlandThoth


To kind of build onto what LowLevelMason's already said here, the 32rd degree is part of the Scottish Rite.
In Masonry, there are only three real degrees,
1st Entered Apprentice
2nd Fellowcraft
3rd Master Mason

Master Mason is the final degree, which is why it's Master Mason.

Pretty much everything afer that, short of officers, are addons, and can be considered as being between the second and third degree.

The more side orders you partake in, the better you may understand Masonry and it's history, or you may just have more medals and trinkets to wear.
Keep in mind to: While the York and Scottish Rites are fairly improtant here in the States, the rest of the world has their own regional bodies.
Which uh... not able to go into much detail yet. Havn't gotten to that chapter. ^^;

well, I have to say you guys have alleviated my curiosity somewhat, but I still think there's something fishy going on here , why do they ask you to perform ceremonies at all? And why the secrecy? This implies something that you don't want non-members to know.

[edit on 19-10-2008 by PinealGlandThoth]

When it comes to rituals, they do them for a couple of reasons. Tradition, since the rituals have been performed pretty much the same way for couple of centuries, and becaus the rituals are designed to impress upon the initiate the meaning of being a Mason.
When it comes to secrecy, part of Masonry is taking a oath not to reveal the rituals, and the modes of identifaction.
And pretty much all that keepsthem from telling if the promise. The first Grand Lodge opened in 1717, the rituals were first published in 1723.
Since then, they've been regularly in and out ofprint, revivsed, ect.
When it comes to why it's a secret, aside from people who get their kicks infiltrating groups, various groups have had a intense dislike of Masonry.
Then there's the groups ancestry, StoneMasons had to guard their secrets fairly closely, less someone stole them. No patents then, secrets and symbols kept your work.

What secrets would a stonemason have that I would want to know anyway? How to build my house? I know that's nasty but seriously, I don't like the fact that all of your ceremonies are kept secret, would I not like what I read about? Would the normal person have any objection?

I think I might know one of your identification tools, my dad told me a man once came up to him and shook his hand but instead of a regular old handshake, the man tickled the inside of my dad's palm. Does this mean the other guy thinks you are a mason?

Originally posted by PinealGlandThoth
What secrets would a stonemason have that I would want to know anyway?

If you were alive at that time perhaps the ability to perform Geometric calculations which would enable to you design and erect structures which others were not capable of doing.

How to build my house?

More likely a cathedral.

I know that's nasty but seriously, I don't like the fact that all of your ceremonies are kept secret, would I not like what I read about?

Have you not read them yet? They are online and also published in numerous texts so there is no reason for not persuing them if you desired.

Would the normal person have any objection?

No, a normal person would not have any objection to them.

I think I might know one of your identification tools, my dad told me a man once came up to him and shook his hand but instead of a regular old handshake, the man tickled the inside of my dad's palm. Does this mean the other guy thinks you are a mason?

I can assure you that this is in no way a Masonic grip.

Perhaps the other man thought your dad was attractive....








[edit on 19-10-2008 by AugustusMasonicus]

Originally posted by PinealGlandThoth
What secrets would a stonemason have that I would want to know anyway?

The "Masons" being referred to are NOT stone-masons, but rather members of the Masonic fraternity. Also called "Freemasons"

How to build my house? I know that's nasty but seriously, I don't like the fact that all of your ceremonies are kept secret

I don't mean to be nasty either, but they are, after all, OUR ceremonies. We have a right to keep them secret. Why shouldn't we? Don't private corporations have a right to keep their board meetings secret? Secret doesn't equate necessarily with evil.

would I not like what I read about?

There is plenty of Masonic info available to anyone who wants to read it. In fact most of the [ahem] secret ceremonies are available for you or anyone to read. You just can't attend them unless you're a member.

Would the normal person have any objection?

Most normal people I know, myself included, have no objection. There are a few who object. That's their choice.

I think I might know one of your identification tools, my dad told me a man once came up to him and shook his hand but instead of a regular old handshake, the man tickled the inside of my dad's palm. Does this mean the other guy thinks you are a mason?

I cannot imagine. It's certainly not a mode of recognition I've ever been taught. Maybe he thought the guys palm was itching.

reply to post by PinealGlandThoth


Let me try to restate myself.
StoneMasons, FreeMasonry's operative ancestry, kept their trade secrets to themselves.
The results would be obvious, the great cathedrals and buildings of the time.
Rituals and symbolic learning, since many people at the time were illiterate, helped pass on the knowledge to the next generation.
Secret code words and hand grips would identify a fellow StoneMason, since at the time you didn't have diplomas.
Today, since FreeMasonry is speculative, the rituals have shifted their purpose.
Now they teach morals, understanding, and wisdom.
A good man in Masonry is the cathedrals of the StoneMasons.
Where the StoneMasons made the cathedrals and buildings a few centuries ago, Masons today seek to make themselves better.
And, like then when you could see the results as a towering cathedral, today you see the results as good men of their community.

The secrecy of the time was due in part to job security. a stonemasons were in high demand because not everyone could do it. if your the only one in your office that knows how to do your job... you sleep better at night.

When it comes to the rituals and what not, There is a term used by masons called "Mercenary Intent". there have been people in the past that would steal the secrets of masonry if they could, this is why we see these irregular lodges pop up as well as other groups who's teachings parallel masonry at some turn or another.

People often like to quote Pike when he said that the initiate is intentionally blinded from the truth, he is given the peices but not told how to put them together untill they reach the higher degrees.

this is to prevent people with "mercenary intent" from joining the lodge, learning a few degrees, and with them a few secrets and then making off with what he has learned to sell it to a 3rd party or to publish it himself as in the case of one William Morgan.


And on that note... if the masons did kill morgan... i say good. it was a scummy thing for him to do.

Thanks guys, I think I've learned a lot here, I'll still be reading up on those conspiracy theories though, I can't get much more outa you guys, seriously though thanks .

Didn't just want to stop posting here and make you guys think I got frustrated

2B1ASK1



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Laugh!
Anyway,thanks for all the good info
Funny how a thread can take on a life of it's own....

Spike

Not to be rude but they do recruit...they asked my grandpa and all of my uncles and dad when they got older. Okay does this beat the one liner rule.....no they didnt join my grandpa forbid it.

Originally posted by xoxo stacie
Not to be rude but they do recruit...they asked my grandpa and all of my uncles and dad when they got older. Okay does this beat the one liner rule.....no they didnt join my grandpa forbid it.

I maintain my position that this rarely happens as much as people may like to believe. I've been a mason for enough years that I had to pause to count them, and I couldn't remember it happening once.

Otherwise it would seem everyone on earth has been invited to be a freemason, despite the strong tradition otherwise. I think the truth is that people believe they have been invited just because they are asked to come to some public lodge function, or someone makes the comment that someone else would be a good mason. In that case, I suppose half the world has been invited.

Also, for some reason, people love to just claim they've been invited - as if they think this gives them credibility on the topic of freemasonry or that they are somehow special. In one of the few times I've seen this occur in real life, upon questioning it turns out the guy was just making it up (he thought because he went to lodge tour he had been "invited").

Does it happen? Sure. Is it happening as much as everyone claims, since everyone claims they've been invited? No.