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Has Anyone Here Turned Down an Offer to join the Freemasons and/or Illuminati?

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posted on Sep, 10 2008 @ 09:13 AM
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I was asked to join the OES by my grandmother I still haven't given her my thoughts on the subject as I do not know very much about the OES.I do know the women in my family have been members for as long as anyone can remember im just not sure I want to be.




posted on Sep, 10 2008 @ 10:10 AM
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reply to post by JohnnyCanuck
 


Johnny, you will never be head of the NWO now that you have declined. Just kidding, it sounds like you already have the ideals of masonry without being a member. I personally feel that if everyone tried to live life like the teachings of masonry try to convey, the world would be a lot better. people like you who try to give back to the community unselfishly are the back bone of a health society. I woulnd't worry about missing anything. (except the steak dinner in the Illuminate -rule the world for a day- social)



posted on Sep, 10 2008 @ 10:14 AM
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reply to post by LordCarpainter
 


where can I go to join the Illuminate? Could you point me to the web site or meeting hall? At what point in masonry are the "lower level masons" let in on the secret info? If you have the knowlege of the illuminate, surely you would have this small bit of info. I'll wait here in case you come back with an answer.



posted on Sep, 10 2008 @ 12:03 PM
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It does strike me as odd as to why the freemasons would ask someone to join without a petition and such. I don't know if i should be speaking about this outloud especially on the net. But i got offered to join an organization called The Shadow Movement, they said they specialized in helping the world and the economy. I got asked after helping an elderly lady up off the floor in a city near to me and someone came over to me and said " that was a nice thing to do" and it all started from there realy. Lots of questions about what i wanted to do in life, and where do i think it will take me.

Very perculiar...



posted on Sep, 10 2008 @ 12:11 PM
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I've never been ask or heard of anyone being asked to join the masons atleast where i live.... i did ask to join though all i gotta do now is fill out the application. ; ]



posted on Sep, 10 2008 @ 12:34 PM
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Originally posted by Ryan Lloyd
But i got offered to join an organization called The Shadow Movement, they said they specialized in helping the world and the economy.


Do tell, sounds interesting...



posted on Sep, 10 2008 @ 04:12 PM
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the truth is folks, that you are not supposed to know or understand the operations of these organizations. Therefore, you will get alot of dumb answers like the replies I read here. The elite run this world through very crafty and ingenious manipulation of society and governments. Masonry is just the bottom of the pyramid, and most masons do not even know the agendas of their superiors, and their superiors superiors and so forth.



posted on Sep, 10 2008 @ 04:28 PM
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reply to post by defcon5
 


I can't be sure but it seems like you can write more than I can in your posts! Just quoting you takes up half of my character limit..so I'm going to be brief so I don't spam the thread with multiple long responses.

On being "invited" - thanks for clearing it up. I guess it depends on how you define invitation - given the OP, that has a wide meaning and could mean things that most masons wouldn't consider an invitation.

On the definition of masonry as a esoteric philosophy institution, I note you only concentrated on the first part of that description and seemed to cherry pick a definition of esoteric. Why not go with whats in the dictionary? Unless you have some reason that your quoted definitions are somehow more accurate, I think its a case of making a definition say what you want it to say. Here is the actual definition of esoteric and philosophy:

www.merriam-webster.com...
www.merriam-webster.com...

Put together, it means quite literally that masonry's primary purpose is the learning of knowledge available to the initiated. This is not related to religion, and I do not understand why you continually attempt to make this link. In everyday life we often associate philosophy and religion. Again, as a student of both, they are at their core as far as the east is to the west. They are different fields, different ways of seeking understanding of our world: one through knowledge, the other through the divine. Masonry is a philosophy, not a religion.

I again stress the example of any government or public assembly. Everyone has been to one at least once in their life (commencement, town hall meeting, etc.). Nearly every one in the US opens with a prayer to "God" - but its never stated which God. This is because the prayer is meant to be directed at whatever god you personally believe in. This is the precise same concept that appears in masonry - although for some reason Christians get upset over masons doing it, but have no problem when they do the same thing. That is whom the Great Architect of the Universe (the GAOTU) is for masons - not any separate deity, but simply a name for whatever god you personally believe in.

You seem to be selectively applying bible verses. I noted that Christians take oaths all the time and thus should have no problems with masons doing the same. You said that its alright because its to government or God, and yet the bible verse you quoted never stated that. The bible verse, if your going to take it literally, means that you should never be getting married, nor go to court, nor anything else. But of course your choosing to interpret it - and there is no reason as to why your interpretation is correct. I interpret it as being a very direct metaphor: it says Christians should act in a way that there is no need for oaths or swearing - that they should never be deceptive. That does not mean oaths will not take place, but simply that your conduct should be such that no one ever has to question your true intentions. Why is your interpretation more correct than mine?

You seem to question that Christians keep secrets. OK then, confess before ATS your sex life, credit card number, social security number, address, phone, and full name. After all, you should have no secrets. Or you can PM all that to me since not everyone on ATS is a Christian but I am. I expect I won't be receiving your PM. Why? Because you keep secrets. The keeping of secrets is not in and of itself evil or wrong. Its only when those secrets are in their own character evil that it becomes wrong to keep them.



posted on Sep, 10 2008 @ 04:42 PM
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Part II (what is it with these character limits?!)

You seem to believe baptism has only a Christian religious connotation. It does not. Christianity is among the world religions one of the last to ever adopt it. Beyond this, what you quoted was an example of a morality play that we often find in esoteric philosophy - not baptism. I do note that, in the culture of today, morality plays and the study of them through an esoteric lens is a not widespread - and as such, I suspect this causes much of the confusion over it. However, it was developed during a time when such things were common practice.

Note that the lodge manual couches the morality play within your own religious system. It notes that these things occur within the context of the Great Architect, which as I previously established, refers to your perception of God. The degree itself outside of that simply teaches that we should beware of our own mortality, and cherish the values of truth and fidelity. Would you disagree with that? I don't think anyone would.



I am curious if you would consider seeking answers through science, religion, philosophy, cabala, gnosticism, witchcraft, divination, necromancy, and astrology all to be equal and acceptable ways to attain new knowledge then?


But this is a very deceptive question. We are only speaking of the light of masonry and the darkness before you know the light of masonry - not of any of these other things. It is someone's personal choice how they explore knowledge - a Christian would not be exploring knowledge through the things you list except the first three. I never said Christians should feel OK in seeking knowledge through all things, but freemasonry is one thing (among many) that is not in conflict with Christianity, and thus there is no reason why Christians cannot seek knowledge of masonry.



I wish I could still find it, but I used to have a list from Cabala that showed this point very clearly, and it has been openly admitted on this site that masonry shares a lot in common with cabala and gnosticism. Cabala by itself is nothing that a Christian should be dabbling in.


That would be someones opinion, and yet sharing an ideal with a different dogma is not in and of itself evil. Christianity and Islam borrow much from each other - as to do all other religions - like the concept of salvation. Do you dabble in other religions that are not Christian? I don't, and yet they all share common themes. That does not mean the other religions are correct (in my opinion), but it is an example that different dogmas can share themes and it not be the subject of such concerns.



But that is not done because of any intention or for sybomlic reason such as it is in masonry:


How do you know that? You know, I could find quite a few scholars who call themselves Christian who would say that the layouts of churches are entirely symbolic. But this is besides the point - you have no quotes from masonic sources that say anything in the lodge is laid out to in honor of "Lucifer" - because its not in masonry. The entire concept comes from the Taxil hoax.



posted on Sep, 10 2008 @ 04:49 PM
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Finally, I'd like to demonstrate how easy it is to randomly accuse everyone as being up to a Luciferian plot - because its pretty common to sit around and tell masons they are either intentionally or unknowingly worshiping Lucifer.

The evidence suggests the Star of Bethlehem was in the east:
www.space.com...

And since we all know that Lucifer was the bright, eastern star, and that the Bethlehem star was in the east and was bright - this means that Christ was a worshiper of Lucifer, as are all Christians.

Do you see how incredibly banal this becomes?



posted on Sep, 11 2008 @ 03:51 AM
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Originally posted by LowLevelMason
I can't be sure but it seems like you can write more than I can in your posts! Just quoting you takes up half of my character limit..so I'm going to be brief so I don't spam the thread with multiple long responses.

I am always pushing the limit on characters as well. So its not something special on my part, I often have to cut chaff out of my posts to make them fit. My posting style is the way a lot of folks posted here in the old days, and may now be considered bad form, but I find it helps me answer each point without getting too far off track. I find that my train of thought likes to wander off track more often now as I am getting older.



Originally posted by LowLevelMason
On being "invited" - thanks for clearing it up. I guess it depends on how you define invitation - given the OP, that has a wide meaning and could mean things that most masons wouldn't consider an invitation.

I am picking up on the same thing. It seems what those of you in the organization consider an invitation is far more of a formal invitation from the organization then what most of us who aren't masons are talking about. I am sure that, as in any organization, there is a lingo that you pick up and get used to, which us laymen are not privy too, so we mess up on the syntax aspects of it.


Originally posted by LowLevelMason
On the definition of masonry as a esoteric philosophy institution, I note you only concentrated on the first part of that description and seemed to cherry pick a definition of esoteric. Why not go with whats in the dictionary? Unless you have some reason that your quoted definitions are somehow more accurate, I think its a case of making a definition say what you want it to say. Here is the actual definition of esoteric and philosophy:

It was not intentional, but rather that all religions are fundamentally philosophies.


Originally posted by LowLevelMason
Put together, it means quite literally that masonry's primary purpose is the learning of knowledge available to the initiated. This is not related to religion, and I do not understand why you continually attempt to make this link.

It could be because I was raised in a way that I don't separate out religion from any other aspect of my life. Everything I do, or learn, I justify in some manner to the way it relates back to my religion, and I do this inherently. I live my religion, and I find connections to it in every aspect of my life. I assumed that all Christians did the same thing, rather then compartmentalize their lives into different divisions. I had never really thought of this before, though, and have learned something about myself from this thread. I have dealt with other organizations that I know Christians belong to, that I have had issue with, and now I see that maybe those who accepted them are better able to compartmentalize those times into a different mindset. If that makes any sense.


Originally posted by LowLevelMason
In everyday life we often associate philosophy and religion. Again, as a student of both, they are at their core as far as the east is to the west. They are different fields, different ways of seeking understanding of our world: one through knowledge, the other through the divine. Masonry is a philosophy, not a religion.

See again, both of these are the same to me. Maybe we are finding a underlying personality difference in those who can be part of these organizations and those who cannot accept them. I don't just mean masonry here either. Let me give you an example...

There is another group that is spiritual in nature, but they get together to do many fun things, and have a great community of people to hang out with. Again many of them are also Christians. They do accept that there is one God the Creator, but they do not accept Christ as being divine. As much as it pained me I could not accept to be part of this organization as more then a guest, because to me, praying in that manner means that I am denying Christ.

Now lets not get this confused with not showing respect, as I consider that two different things. I do show respect for this group (and for the masons when I have attended their functions), I enter the way they do, I sit when they sit, stand when they stand, I am attentive, quiet, and dress appropriately. However, I will not pray in their manner, nor will I participate in any of the religious ceremonies outside being an observer.


Originally posted by LowLevelMason
I again stress the example of any government or public assembly. Everyone has been to one at least once in their life (commencement, town hall meeting, etc.). Nearly every one in the US opens with a prayer to "God" - but its never stated which God. This is because the prayer is meant to be directed at whatever god you personally believe in.

There is a separation of Church and State in the US (I am not sure where you are), and I have never been to a government event that opens with a prayer. Maybe I am just sheltered, or live in a state where that is against the law.


Originally posted by LowLevelMason
This is the precise same concept that appears in masonry - although for some reason Christians get upset over masons doing it, but have no problem when they do the same thing.

Not true, I would also never pray in a Jewish Tabernacle either, even though they worship the same Father, they deny Christ.
As a matter of fact, I belong to a mainstream protestant religion (the first
), which is broken into two accepted synods. I am a member of the more laid back of the two synods. The president of our synod went to one of these "All Faiths" gatherings, and prayed there. He was almost excommunicated for doing so.


Originally posted by LowLevelMason
You seem to be selectively applying bible verses. I noted that Christians take oaths all the time and thus should have no problems with masons doing the same. You said that its alright because its to government or God, and yet the bible verse you quoted never stated that.



30. When are we permitted, and even required, to swear by God's name?
We are permitted, and even required, to take an oath by God's name when an oath
is necessary for the glory of God or the welfare of our neighbor. Examples include
the following: testimony in court, oath of office, wedding vows.
90 Rom. 13:1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities.
91 Num. 30:2 When a man makes a vow to the Lord or takes an oath to obligate himself by a
pledge, he must not break his word but must do everything he said.
92 Deut. 6:13 Fear the Lord your God, serve Him only and take your oaths in His name.
93 Heb. 6:16 Men swear by someone greater than themselves, and the oath confirms what is said
and puts an end to all argument.
Bible narratives: Jesus permitted Himself

31. When is swearing forbidden?
Swearing is forbidden when it is done falsely, thoughtlessly, or in sinful, uncertain, or
unimportant matters.
94 Lev. 19:12 Do not swear falsely by My name and so profane the name of your God. I am the
Lord.
95 Matt. 5:33-37 You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, "Do not break your oath
but keep the oaths you have made to the Lord." But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by
heaven, for it is God's throne, or by the earth, for it is His footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the
city of the Great King. And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair
white or black. Simply let your "Yes" be "Yes" and your "No", "No"; anything beyond this comes
from the evil one.
Bible narratives: Peter swore falsely and thus committed perjury (Matt. 26:72). Certain Jews
swore to commit murder (Acts 23:12). Herod swore in an unknown and unimportant matter
(Matt. 14:6-9). Jephthah's thoughtless oath (Judges 11:30-40).

32. What is using satanic arts by God's name?
Using satanic arts by God's name is
A. using God's name in order to perform or claim to perform supernatural things
with the help of the devil, such as casting spells, calling up a spirit,
fortunetelling, consulting the dead, or other occult practices;
96 Deut. 18:10-12 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire,
who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or
who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is
detestable to the Lord, and because of these detestable practices the Lord your God will drive
out those nations before you
Bible narratives: The Egyptian sorcerers performed supernatural things with the help of the
devil (Exodus 7-8). The sons of Sceva used Jesus' name to cast out spirits, but they did not
have faith (Acts 19:13-29).

B. joining with or seeking the aid of people who practice these and similar satanic
arts or worship Satan;
97 Lev. 19:31 Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them. I am
the Lord your God.
Bible narrative: King Saul sought the help of the witch of Endor (1 Samuel 28).

that is what I believe.


Originally posted by LowLevelMason
You seem to question that Christians keep secrets. OK then, confess before ATS your sex life, credit card number, social security number, address, phone, and full name. After all, you should have no secrets. Or you can PM all that to me since not everyone on ATS is a Christian but I am.

I have no secrets beyond information that could be used to gain access to accounts. I would have no problem giving those to someone from my church however as I know them. No offense, but I don't know you, your simply a stream of text to me, and so it's not a fair test.



posted on Sep, 11 2008 @ 09:15 AM
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Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

Originally posted by Ryan Lloyd
But i got offered to join an organization called The Shadow Movement, they said they specialized in helping the world and the economy.


Do tell, sounds interesting...


I would love to tell you however i am swarn to secrecy, they have people everywhere apparently. Or Maybe he was bluffing. But to be honest mate i wouldn't want to risk it so... sorry.

It isn't a religious occult or worshiping organization, solely based on helping out the planet and sharing views on the universe, but they hide themselves for some reason. Don't even know why he picked me out from the crowd of many who could of helped that eldery lady up...

[edit on 11-9-2008 by Ryan Lloyd]



posted on Sep, 11 2008 @ 05:01 PM
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reply to post by defcon5
 


First, thanks to Augustus for the PM - I can't respond due to not having enough posts, but I think your reading mine so I wanted to let you know I got it and appreciate it


As I said, there is a difference between religion and philosophy. In fact if we wanted to start classifying things, only small parts of religion fall under philosophy (such as the philosophy of religion). Not all philosophy is religion, but some religion is philosophy. In truth the bulk of religion is outside of philosophy because philosophy requires analysis through logic, and logic cannot prove faith. This isn't a matter of compartmentalizing, its a matter of classification of fields. Masonry is a philosophical institution unconcerned with religion, and it rests solely in the innately non-religion part of philosophy. Some things do not concern your religion. We are indeed IN this world even if we are not of it.

You are of course free to take the stance that everything has a religion connotation for a "true" Christian, but that means you'd have to be criticizing all Christians for everything they do outside of going to church and reading the bible. I would argue that everything is religious, which is different. Everything I do is with the desire to more fully understand my faith - a religious desire - but not everything I do is based around religion.



There is another group that is spiritual in nature, but they get together to do many fun things, and have a great community of people to hang out with. Again many of them are also Christians. They do accept that there is one God the Creator, but they do not accept Christ as being divine. As much as it pained me I could not accept to be part of this organization as more then a guest, because to me, praying in that manner means that I am denying Christ.


I am not sure why you choose to clandestinely characterize masonry like this. Are you waiting for me to explain why this is not masonry so you can say "AH HA! I never mentioned masonry but you assumed I was talking about it, why would that be if it wasn't true?" Well I am going to address it, but not because this stands out to be as being masonry - its just obvious that this is what you believe it to be.

The following parts are not true of masonry: Christians in masonry do accept Christ as being divine - no one else is going to, since it is (again) not a religion. If you feel you are denying Christ by praying to your own God and not forcing others to do the same, then that is your opinion. What you call denying Christ I can only classify as intolerance. Its not denying Christ at all - its acknowledging that your God is Christ (if your a Christian).



However, I will not pray in their manner, nor will I participate in any of the religious ceremonies outside being an observer.


There is a difference between religion and religious. These things are religious, but do not concern a religion. You can of course do whatever you want in a religious ceremony, but they are not actually related to your religion.



There is a separation of Church and State in the US (I am not sure where you are), and I have never been to a government event that opens with a prayer. Maybe I am just sheltered, or live in a state where that is against the law.


Umm...the Congress of the United States opens every day with a prayer to "God" - so that the members can pray to whoever their God is (no one says who the God actually is in the prayer).
www.youtube.com...

This is the same thing that happens at any public ceremony. That you did not know this is shocking. It is, again, the same thing in principle as masonry. Why do Christians not decry this?



posted on Sep, 11 2008 @ 05:05 PM
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I think that I got my invitation in the mail along with my weekly pile of credit card offers.

They all got shredded.


Next time I get an offer to join a secret society, I'm going to jump on it.

Especially if they have a flashy outfit.



posted on Sep, 11 2008 @ 05:07 PM
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Best one was being invited into the main freemason centre near holborn in london. I remember being asked how great it looked, and had to agree coz i was inside it, but it looked like an ill balanced follie.



posted on Sep, 11 2008 @ 05:08 PM
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reply to post by defcon5
 




Not true, I would also never pray in a Jewish Tabernacle either, even though they worship the same Father, they deny Christ. As a matter of fact, I belong to a mainstream protestant religion (the first ), which is broken into two accepted synods. I am a member of the more laid back of the two synods. The president of our synod went to one of these "All Faiths" gatherings, and prayed there. He was almost excommunicated for doing so.


Really? I am quite sure the Bible tells us that God does not require that you pray in a church, and that he will hear your prayers wherever you are. Is your God too weak to be heard in a synagogue or mosque? Does your God only listen to your prayers whenever its in a Church of your own faith? That may be your God, but it is not my God nor the God of the Bible. My God listens to my prayers wherever I may be. And I could quote Bible verses all day in support of that.

Of course, a masonic lodge room has no relation to a Jewish synagogue, its about as similar as a synagogue is to a grocery store. One is a room based on religion, the other, based on fraternity.

You offered quotes from some non-biblical source about when you are allowed to take oaths. I would like for you to quote to me in the Bible where it says this other source is authoritative on what the Bible says. Unless you do, it is meaningless. It is the words of men trying to tell me what the inspired men of God who wrote the bible "really means" - and their interpretation is no more right than mine because of it. What I find interesting is that none of the bible quotes therein relate to anything I would do in Masonry - so even according to your fallible source with out of context Bible quotes, I'm good still (in regards to the Bible verses mentioned - the text is useless and fallible).



I have no secrets beyond information that could be used to gain access to accounts. I would have no problem giving those to someone from my church however as I know them. No offense, but I don't know you, your simply a stream of text to me, and so it's not a fair test.


Why would that matter? You have said implied secrets for the sake of secrets are evil. OK then, tell us your secrets. If you want to argue you have a right to secrets then you would see why I argue that secrets are fine, it is the substance of the secrets that determines whether it is good or bad.



posted on Oct, 14 2008 @ 11:53 PM
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reply to post by defcon5
 


hahah looks like u trying to throw us off the trail a bit ay. and who arre you?



posted on Nov, 25 2008 @ 05:53 PM
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Maybe, if during the "initiation" if you refuse to desecrate time honored symbols and values (ie: spitting on a cross or other religious symbol or artifact; saying the Lord's prayer backwards; urinating on a flag; climbing into a coffin; etc. You are told that you have the strength of character and conviction they are looking for and you are guided down one path (ie: "the Blue Lodge") and if you do not, you might be told that you have the ability to shed off preconcieved notions and ideas and are able to be taught the significance of the deeper esoteric meanings and teachings and are lead off down a different path. Each candidate being told the opposite reaction would have disqualified them, so they don't believe an alternate path within the innner circles do not exist. The one being overt and public works, the other being overt and private works. Might explain the difference of opinions on the matter.



posted on Nov, 25 2008 @ 05:56 PM
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reply to post by contactee
 


I was, they gave me a video they wanted me to watch and kept up with the recruitment. I Finally had to be a bit of a di$% to get them to accept no means no.



posted on Nov, 25 2008 @ 05:57 PM
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Both my father and uncle were invited and refused. My brother joined. But he doesn't attend anything, so he's not really in.

[edit on 25-11-2008 by mystiq]



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