Originally posted by lucid eyes
As expected...if someone disagrees with your propposal its because he "doesnt get it" or "is not ready for the truth".

The usual pattern of deception.


End of communication.

Well, enjoy your life and I hope that you solve your anger issues and properly place them on the people that may deserve them.

When and if you're ever ready to engage in logical and mutual diction and dialect rather than pop shots and character degradations, I'll be here. Just don't know for how long.

I would also like to make it be known that I didn't only say that "you don't get it", I took the time to re-explain it to you, whatever that means to you.

And I will stand by my statements. If you do not understand what I am presenting then you either A.) don't get it, or B.) are not ready for the truth, or C.) Both A and B.

P.s. A and B cover all options. If you don't get it, you're either not taking the time to truly understand, because if you did you'd attempt to pick apart my logic through quoting me and analyzing my words rather than taking textual pop shots, or you've been heavily brainwashed by a religion or ideal and are having complications letting go of the old ideal.

You'll come around lucid, they all do. That's not a threat or an instigation, it's an honest promise, that is if you're in search of truth.

Actually, no. Logic of the eternal is not a point of view, opinion is. I'm implementing objective logic here, not subjective opinion.

This is all your opinion, based on your logic, as I say, we all have very different views on what is logical.

Then is what you just said above right? If we can never be right, according to your opinion, then why do you make such statements about it? You're obviously wrong either way by default of your opinion as soon as you begin to speak about it. You refute yourself.

No I am not right, but I could be close . My model was aimed at individuality, we are all on the path of enlightenment, it doesn't matter what you believe, only how you implement your beliefs. The path is only as important as the journey one is on, I am on my path right now, because of my journey, I don't know where I am going or where the path may lead, but this path feels right for me, therefore, I am on the right path

You're distraught, and I'm sorry for this. I hope you see the way clearly and that you find what's RIGHT. Empty subjective opinions do not matter to eternity, truth does.

I think I'll be alright are you missing the point that all this was started from your opinion of the universe?

According to your own opinion, again, you are not right because you can't ever be.

But according to universal logic, anyway, you are still not right. The eternal one is an individual itself and at the same time it is not. It experiences itself as an individual through creatures, yet is one essence shared by all.

As I said, I don't care if I'm right or wrong, the path is helping me develop and I like the way I'm developing, if I'm wrong at the end of my life, it doesn't change who I was, or who I became. I agree with you on the bold and that is what I was going on about a bit further down the thread, the whole itself, is an experience of individuality, it is what we are heading for, or should I say 'I'.

Furthermore, anything that is singular is an individual. In-divi-dual, it takes two things to know individuality. Eternity can only be one. As its immeasurable essence it is not an individual, or if you wish to call it an individual because it is a ONE, then it has no other eternal one which to contrast against.

Exactly, which is why 'we' chose to split in the first place, we could compreend individuality, but not experience it, we are all one, but we are 'seperated' from the source on purpose, yet still connected.

There was no creation. Everything always has been. Eternity can not be created, it defines itself as having no beginning and no end.

I'm still pondering this one, chicken or the egg thing going on, lol. IF 'souls' of people through enlightenment and understanding, one day become a universe unto themself, to experience the 'whole', who came first, the person who became the universe, or the universe that became the person...s

Either way, what you say is not right, admitted by you. You will only go as far as speculation if you don't believe in truth v.s. fallacy. When you believe that you can be right and you realize how important the truth is, you may become more pedantic and well thought out logically.

It is all speculation to me, even when put under the guise of truth/fallacy, there are truths in this universe, but we are a long way off knowing them, and to spout speculation as truth, slows down the progress of our entire species, science has been doing this for hundreds of years, as you are now.

There is no choice, that's an illusion. You say whatever we haven't already experienced, if time is eternal then we've already experienced eternal things, that is according to your logic. Because time is never beginning from the present back, and never ending from the present forward. This again is only your opinion and has nothing to do with the way that the universe objectively works. Individuality is experienced through the creature, but the soul is one eternity shared. No souls, plural, are eternal as explained, only the eternal one. There is no possible way for us to reincarnate as individual souls, this individuality is only the experience of this single creature called the Human, however this does not mean that the energy that makes up our bodies will not be recycled into other things, as we should all know by now.

I'm not saying they're individual souls, I'm saying were all a different facet of the one entity, experiencing as much as it can, individually. The whole trying to experience the individual and the individual trying to experience the whole.

You can only be everything there is to be if there is an finite amount of things and an infinite amount of time and also only if you are one of many eternal individual souls that is reincarnating (already explained why this can't be), therefore you must believe that the creatures of the universe are finite and static in genre, and thus also either not evolving or static in nature. However, if the creatures are infinite in genre and infinitely changing in an infinite time and not repeating itself exactly the same way twice, then it is impossible for an eternal individual soul to experience(be) everything.

(my italics, helping me think, lol)

This is interesting and I will be giving it some thought, but maybe it's aspiration, afterall, using my model, the universe, at some point was like me, yet it still split itself again, once it had 'ascended', maybe it realised that at a certain point, you have 'ascend' to experience the rest? good point though

A ratio of eternal time subsequent to a finite amount of things will eventuate into the conclusion that you present above, however, as with time, space too is eternal. Therefore the things to be are infinite. Your consciousness that you experience right now is only a result of receiving the 5 senses of the individual creature's body that you experience yourself as. You are not an eternal, yet finite being, but you are sharing the eternal soul as a finite creature.

You seem to be seperating 'me' from 'me'. This vessel I am currently incarnated in, is me, but only a reflection (or refraction?) of me. These 5 senses, are my way of interacting with this physical embodiment and in no way consitutes me, only a means of monitoring/experiencing my environment.

EMM

Sounds like your refering to possesion, the physical is here, and the 'one true soul' jumps in when it feels the need to 'experience'?

I may be misunderstanding though

(ran out of room) lol

EMM

I'll also get back to you. It seems like we're understanding each other a lot more now that we continue to discuss.

I'm still disappointed at you treating this as only my opinion and not yet realizing that only what I have presented, nothing more and nothing less, is fact.

That 1.) Eternity is one, since it has no beginning and no end, thus encompasses all space and time and is all space and time, that which is eternal. Therefore 2.) We don't have individual eternal souls because of 1 stating that there can only be one eternity. And to add 3.) Time and space are one and the same. What is said about space must also be said about time. A thing can not be said to be individual, ergo finite in space (such as an individual soul) and simultaneously eternal in time.

If this helps then I'll leave it at this. If it doesn't then I'll maybe reply to your large reply quote by quote.

Thank you for the honest and inquisitive discourse.

Originally posted by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal

I'm still disappointed at you treating this as only my opinion and not yet realizing that only what I have presented, nothing more and nothing less, is fact.

There are no facts, only the interpretations of man. Humbling I thought and by a man much greater than myself.

That 1.) Eternity is one, since it has no beginning and no end, thus encompasses all space and time and is all space and time, that which is eternal. Therefore 2.) We don't have individual eternal souls because of 1 stating that there can only be one eternity. And to add 3.) Time and space are one and the same. What is said about space must also be said about time. A thing can not be said to be individual, ergo finite in space (such as an individual soul) and simultaneously eternal in time.

Honestly, I'm still trying to understand time, sometimes I see it as a motion, this motion promotes expansion, time, is the 'canon' we place against this expansion, yet expansion from what?

Other times, its just a concept, a way to gauge and measure our own life, set goals, meet deadlines etc. charting our progression through life, which in this case, is pointless, as this is a physical concept, born from a need to organize and understand the world we live in, to apply this to a 'universal being' may be a tad rash, lol.

If this helps then I'll leave it at this. If it doesn't then I'll maybe reply to your large reply quote by quote.

We are not trying to persuade each other, we are showing each other why we believe the things we do, you cannot prove to me you are right, I must walk my own path, as do you and anyone else. This way, by each having their own individual view of the world, we must allow people in, to explain our concepts and beliefs, in turn, we get a glimpse into their 'world' or their perceptions, allowing us to see a 'bigger picture', for a greater understanding. (Not saying I wouldn't mind a bit of company now and then, some nice conversation along the way can't be bad. )

Thank you for the honest and inquisitive discourse.

Right back atcha'

EMM

If we're talking logic then you're whole thread goes out the window. There is no proof what-so-ever that the soul even exists. For all we know it's just fantasy to make people feel a little better about themselves. You're talking about an immaterial object, and those two words together don't even make sense. 'Object' implies a physical form. I'm assuming we are saying that this one soul is immaterial, forgive me if I'm wrong and if I am please explain so I can better understand your thread.

That being said I've heard what you're saying here, and variations of what you're saying here, from individual folks several times. Person to person, in conversation and all that. I also believe in a variation of what you describe.

They are wonderful ideas though, good on ya for taking the time to write it all down and share the message.

What an excellent thread to study the tactics and behavior of the ego-mind when it attaches itself to spirituality.

Dear readers, fellow participators and Humans,

Thank you all for your replies.

I will be leaving again for some time as I have more work that is to be done.

In the mean time, many of you did not understand the thread at all, and still don't, I advise that if you find this interesting but are having complications fathoming the aspects of it, to read it slowly, persnickety and thoroughly.

I was representing how the individual soul does NOT exist for every being, however, there is an 'eternal one' (purely mathematical and logical, not some fairy tale make believe mental delusion) that we all share that can be understood and reached through logic.

I am not "spiritual" so I am disappointed at the labels being so loosely and insultingly thrown around.

Those that believe that there are no facts and is no truth are simply too weak minded to stand up for what is right, have given up on searching, or haven't yet found the truth. It is an escape mechanism and a force-field that repels any universal truth. In fact it saddens me that they don't recognize their own contradiction, to say that nothing is right and to live by it is a hypocritical habit and a logical error. To not believe that their is any truth, and instead believe the truth is that there isn't any truth, is a depressingly static and hypocritical way of life. These people will never find the truth because they don't recognize their own faults.

Those who attempt to separate Humanity and their concepts from the universe have no real understanding of interconnection, and no comprehension that we in fact are not only a part of the universe, but are the universe itself.

Those that see an omnipresent infallible truth reached as "ego", really have the ego their self and are afraid to submit to the infallible logic of the eternal one. However, we all have ego, it is simply molded and understood, although some egos reside in fallacy, the stubbornness, hope, belief, resilience and perseverance of my ego will always take homage in truth and love.

This point of view is non-local, immeasurable, non referential and eternally one, it is shared by all. The logic is irrefutable, as has been shown. No one yet has disproved the logic invoked here, rather all that has been said is opinionated gimmicks and occasional character pop-shots and misplaced anger.

Enjoy your time; whether you have simply failed to understand or failed to keep an open mind and truly soak in what I have presented then you are truly missing the greatest point ever proven in the recorded history of this planet. However, things will still take their course and this knowledge will once again be known world-wide, peace will ensue and love will return in time when Humanity is once again existentially united and found through the knowledge and perfection of the eternal one, not lost and divided through opinion, religious competition and psychological warfare and manipulation.

Good blessings.

L.O.V.E.

[edit on 10-9-2008 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]

Be careful, you seem to be holding a rather lofty ego about this whole thing. Try not get consumed by a possible wholely original idea, you may be just as wrong as the next guy.

Those that believe that there are no facts and is no truth are simply too weak minded to stand up for what is right, have given up on searching, or haven't yet found the truth. It is an escape mechanism and a force-field that repels any universal truth.

Lol, I wouldn't consider myself weak minded, then again, if I was, would I know.

It came from asking myself a question one day, could anyone ever have definitive proof? We see people all the time asking for proof, proof of aliens, UFO's, the soul, yet we can't actually give proof. Then I asked, well, can we get proof on more substantial and tangible things, which led me to science and the answer was no. You must believe in science, to accept their word, you must have faith, science is just another belief system and I don't have faith in them.

So I now use my own perceptions, not the perceptions of others, as my outlook on the world, I take as much in as I can, and add it to my overall perception, it feels right, and I like the path I'm on.

In fact it saddens me that they don't recognize their own contradiction, to say that nothing is right and to live by it is a hypocritical habit and a logical error. To not believe that their is any truth, and instead believe the truth is that there isn't any truth, is a depressingly static and hypocritical way of life. These people will never find the truth because they don't recognize their own faults.

There is nothing hypocritical about it, I don't claim I'm right, do I? I say I'm comfortable on my current path, based on my current perceptions, as my perceptions change, my path changes with it and therefore my journey, at no point did I say I'm right, only that I am more happy to create my own footsteps, rather than follow in someone else's, individuality, remember?

Those who attempt to separate Humanity and their concepts from the universe have no real understanding of interconnection, and no comprehension that we in fact are not only a part of the universe, but are the universe itself.

I think people are saying, that this is such a human concept, they were expecting something...more from an all knowing being, yet as you said, just because people don't believe it, doesn't mean its not the truth. We, our 'human' nature, are such a small fraction of the encompassing 'all' that it's hard to understand why 'it' would imply such 'basic' concepts.

Someone else said it, the 'truth' cannot be spoken, only experienced. I can sit here, for days, or weeks, explaining my point of view, yet, you wouldn't get it, unless you experience, what I have, seen, read, thought like I do, it wouldn't make sense, it wouldn't seem right, you would have to walk my entire path, to understand how I got to where I am. So rather than persuade, we discuss, allowing for a greater understanding of our own concepts and perceptions aswell as the people we discuss with.

Those that see an omnipresent infallible truth reached as "ego", really have the ego their self and are afraid to submit to the infallible logic of the eternal one. However, we all have ego, it is simply molded and understood, although some egos reside in fallacy, the stubbornness, hope, belief, resilience and perseverance of my ego will always take homage in truth and love.

Again, infallible logic in your eyes, to us, it doesn't seem as logical, as we haven't walked 'your path', see what I mean?

No one yet has disproved the logic invoked here, rather all that has been said is opinionated gimmicks and occasional character pop-shots and misplaced anger.

I seek to question, not to disprove, I can't prove myself right, therefore I don't have the right to prove anyone else wrong.

Enjoy your time; whether you have simply failed to understand or failed to keep an open mind and truly soak in what I have presented then you are truly missing the greatest point ever proven in the recorded history of this planet. However, things will still take their course and this knowledge will once again be known world-wide, peace will ensue and love will return in time when Humanity is once again existentially united and found through the knowledge and perfection of the eternal one, not lost and divided through opinion, religious competition and psychological warfare and manipulation.

Lol, I have a saying that helps we think.

"Questions keep us humble, answers make us arrogant"

Which are you seeking? the ultimate answer, or the ultimate question?

EMM

Edit:

"When you state that a lie is a lie regardless of what you think the truth is... what if, in all infinite possibility, there exists a world in which the very things one person believes as truth is true? If our consciousness is a fractal of the whole, then it very well might be that the person experiencing their version of the truth is creating a truth by the simple means of experiencing the world through that viewpoint... or it is possible that, while in this version of the individual's experience his truth might be a lie, what's to say that there isn't another version of his experience where it is the truth?"

I played around with this idea for a while and to me, made sense.
Star.

[edit on 10-9-2008 by ElectroMagnetic Multivers]

[edit on 10-9-2008 by ElectroMagnetic Multivers]

Originally posted by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal
No one yet has disproved the logic invoked here

Alright.

Originally posted by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal
There are no eternal individual souls

and then.....

Originally posted by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal
But truly when we die we are dead eternally. (no reincarnation, thought, choice etc.)

Your logic doesn't span the gap between these two concepts. It's a leap of logic and is thus faulty.

The perfect beauty of logic is that it is faulty and always developing through trial and error. Thank God for that, or else we'd have run out of things to do a long time ago. Infinite love does not call for calling other people dim-witted for not knowing or wanting to know your logic to be perfect, which if indeed you are talking to me now in English and not a multidimensional hyperlanguage, is far from perfect. You are limited in logic for a reason. So you don't ruin your experience with what mystics and philosophers term "the end of knowledge".
I don't know, and I'm happy not knowing... at least about what you, the OP, seem to be talking about. It's more fun to learn then to teach, anyway.

Opinion
1. a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.

Logic
# Valid reasoning: Your paper lacks the logic to prove your thesis.
# The relationship between elements and between an element and the whole in a set of objects, individuals, principles, or events: There's a certain logic to the motion of rush-hour traffic.
# convincing forcefulness; inexorable truth or persuasiveness: the irresistible logic of the facts.

Fact(s)
- a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true: Scientists gather facts about plant growth.
- something known to exist or to have happened: Space travel is now a fact.
- something that actually exists; reality; truth: Your fears have no basis in fact.

An opinion is not a fact. A belief is not a fact. Flawless logic is factual.

Belief
1. something believed; an opinion or conviction: a belief that the earth is flat.
2. confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof: a statement unworthy of belief.

You've all gone off track. There is only one eternity, thus no room for any others. You have still not proven this to be false, as it can not be disproved.

As mentioned in opening of the O.P., the logic is irrefutable and flawless. It is not opinion based or belief based, rather it follows a construct of valid reasoning that can not be overturned.

There is not room for two eternities because one eternity encompasses all space and time that ever has been or ever will be.

It appears that most of you have no idea what logic is or even how to use it. Logic is not found in blind faith, logic is not found in speculatory philosophy. If all A's are C and all B's are A, then all B's are definitely C. That is logic, it has nothing to do with points of view, rather it is sound and flawless reasoning achieved through induction and deduction.

A, B, and C don't care if you think that all B's aren't C, because A, B, and C already told you that all B's are C, and regardless of whether you can figure this out or be made aware of it or not, it will always be that way.

Eternal knowledge is what I presented, it will NEVER be refuted, it is what I have brung, it can NEVER be destroyed, for it is the eternal one. It has always been the eternal one that we all share whether you were aware of it or not, just as the Earth always orbited the sun whether people were aware of it or not, just as the Earth is round whether it was ever doubted or not known. It doesn't matter what you think, believe or have faith in, the only thing that matters is the way things are.

You can never prove that there is room for two eternities because there isn't.

I didn't log in.

I really have work to do and I don't have time to spend here on those that don't even understand the meanings of words, symbols, their meanings and how they give us everything.

The only truth is that which is not spoken? Well then tell me how I just said to myself that the Earth orbits the Sun.

Your fear of the truth will not change what it is, it will only delay you realizing it.

If you can't find the words to explain what you need to explain then you aren't trying hard enough. The words are everything.

Life still has meaning and yes I can and have been living with the truth. I never asked anyone to feel sorry for me. Misplaced sympathy and empathy are only projections of your own fears of what you think it might be like.

I am off, this time not to return until further work is finished and ready to be shared. Love is truth and the truth is love, why would you ever sacrifice the truth for emotional comfort? It only leads to confusion, division and societal chaos. The very thing trying to be escaped is what is created because of the selfishness of the individual. Don't listen to your emotions, instead decipher what is true.