Why there are no eternal individual souls: Must Read: I challenge anyone, even the Pope.

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posted on Sep, 8 2008 @ 05:30 AM
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No one can refute this. The logic is flawless. It uproots religious dogma and opens our eyes to a new perspective on the world and each other.

I'm here to share, not to argue or to attempt to be refuted. I know I'm right already. Please read and enjoy and whatever it means to you, let it be. Also, if it's important to you, please don't be afraid to spread the word to your religious or spiritual friends who "believe otherwise". I may be making a come back to post in this section of ATS for a while until my message is properly conveyed in all of its forms. Enjoy, readers.

There are no eternal individual souls because eternity is an immeasurable amount of time and space and there is only space for one eternity. There is one eternal soul that we all share and that we are all a part of, in other words there is one eternal existence that we are all a part of. I hope they'll understand this some day, it's super important. There's no "eternal souls" plural, there could be "eternal soul mates", as in their colliding and uniting comes about as a result of eternal interaction and their personalities just click... if you wanted to label it that, but they are mates of the soul, the one eternal soul that we all share (also known as: one eternal existence), they are not 2 individual souls that are mates; they are 2 creatures sharing one eternal soul, just as we all do. But the current religious concept of the word soul is really a misnomer, especially since souls are said to be "eternal" and some religions believe that they "reincarnate". But truly when we die we are dead eternally. Sadly for some, but the truth nonetheless, our lives are finite and our deaths are eternal. We are merely an assimilation of energy in material form, we are simply action and reaction, result and cause, sempiternal interaction, the happening. No thought, no choice, no freedom. What we consider thought is only the awareness of our perception and the perceiving of our awareness, is only the interaction of our anatomical biological bodies with the environment around us and it with us. To contemplate is nothing more than energy attempting to evolve towards efficiency through the logical and moral constructs of the universe. This logic can be corrupt and imperfect (not 100% efficient) if the specie or individual creature has yet to remember its eternal knowledge. This morality can be corrupt and not 100% efficient if the specie or individual creature is yet to remember and comprehend the specie survival efficiency implications of morality. As the specie and creature that we are, binomial as the Human Being, we are blessed to know and understand the universe as ourselves and as each other on an extremely intimate level, the most intimate of all animals, and through knowing these things we must listen to its message and become responsible with it by becoming it and allowing it to be us through what it teaches us since our awareness has been so disconnected as we evolve forward if we want to survive our future together, and it will always be together for us as all things are. We can not separate, it is the illusion. I love you all, I am no prophet, I am no Jesus, I may be a savior, but I require no worship, only your attention while I'm here, and to never forget this message after I leave.


The eternal can be finitely measured forever through the forms (celestial creatures) that make up its ultimate formlessness as the immeasurable one, but it is not a static, eternally finite being. It is a formless Being that consists of forms. The absolutely finite attributed to any object can not simultaneously be absolutely eternal, if its measurements are absolutely finite then it is not eternal in space; all finite objects have a life and death or beginning and end to their forms. Only the eternal has no beginning and no end, it is formless when aggregated to be an immeasurable singularity, and existing of it are optically finite objects as forms such as creatures and celestial bodies, but the energy of these things are eternally interconnected and eternally existing although their material forms will decay away, change, cycle and re-cycle eternally into other things, and from those things into other things, forever. The finite must have disconnection, must have borders, boundaries and blockage from the rest, this is an illusion and a farce; the eternal one is always interconnected, it is the only one, it is the only eternity that exists: eternity is an immeasurable singularity. It is impossible for two eternities to exist simultaneously, the one eternity is what everything is, it encompasses all space(s) and all time(s).

There are creatures of the soul, of the eternal one, but there are no individual eternal souls. We can call these creatures of God, but God is not a deity and God is the universe, or the eternal one, and the eternal one is the only eternal individual soul and it is in everything and everywhere, and it is everything. God is energy, that which is eternal, that which is existence.




posted on Sep, 8 2008 @ 10:36 AM
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Originally posted by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal
No one can refute this. The logic is flawless. It uproots religious dogma and opens our eyes to a new perspective on the world and each other.


Logic is a point of view, it varies from person to person, therefore your logic, isn't the same as mine.



I'm here to share, not to argue or to attempt to be refuted. I know I'm right already.


IMO, we are never right, we can only be close to the right answer, or know were near it, and even if we were right, we couldn't know it in this life time, so it wouldn't matter.


There are no eternal individual souls because eternity is an immeasurable amount of time and space and there is only space for one eternity. There is one eternal soul that we all share and that we are all a part of, in other words there is one eternal existence that we are all a part of. I hope they'll understand this some day, it's super important.


Agreed, IMO, we are all a matter of experience, the experience of individuality, an all knowing being could comprehend and experience everything, except individuality, could comprehend it, but not experience it, this IMO, is what the universe was, one concsious being, and was created by a conscious action, of splitting itself into all it's forms, I am one of those forms, aswell as a rock, a molecule, a plant or planet or star.


There's no "eternal souls" plural, there could be "eternal soul mates", as in their colliding and uniting comes about as a result of eternal interaction and their personalities just click... if you wanted to label it that, but they are mates of the soul, the one eternal soul that we all share (also known as: one eternal existence), they are not 2 individual souls that are mates; they are 2 creatures sharing one eternal soul, just as we all do.


Although I agree, that essentially we are all one, but IMO, individuality is the key. When we die, we will reincarnate again, as whatever we choose, what ever we haven't already experienced, we will experience, from our eternal point of view, each and everyone/thing will go through this, becoming everything that could possibly be and adding that experience to there overall experience, thus altering their perception of the 'universe', as a whole, aswell as in part.


But the current religious concept of the word soul is really a misnomer, especially since souls are said to be "eternal" and some religions believe that they "reincarnate". But truly when we die we are dead eternally. Sadly for some, but the truth nonetheless, our lives are finite and our deaths are eternal. We are merely an assimilation of energy in material form, we are simply action and reaction, result and cause, sempiternal interaction, the happening. No thought, no choice, no freedom.


I don't agree with being dead eternally to be honest, I'm not going to say your wrong, as I don't know if I'm right, so have no gauge to compare, something people tend to forget. For me, it makes no sense, you suggest we get our measley 80 years ish (if your lucky) out of the rest of eternity? for what? everything in nature is based on harmony, balance, this offers no balance, that I can see.


What we consider thought is only the awareness of our perception and the perceiving of our awareness, is only the interaction of our anatomical biological bodies with the environment around us and it with us. To contemplate is nothing more than energy attempting to evolve towards efficiency through the logical and moral constructs of the universe. This logic can be corrupt and imperfect (not 100% efficient) if the specie or individual creature has yet to remember its eternal knowledge.


Again, morality and logic are human concepts, to describe a way to act or behave. Would you go out and kill someone if you weren't told not to? I would like to think that I wouldn't, although, I can't say for certain, since I was raised with a moral base. Logic is the same, it's a human concept, alot of people find Ocham's razor to be logical, and to me, it is totally idiotic, is my logic flawed or theirs? IMO, neither, we both have different perceptions of the world we live in, therefore, logically, we would have different logic to explain our world and our actions and beliefs within it.

Good thread


Star and flag.

EMM


[edit on 8-9-2008 by ElectroMagnetic Multivers]

[edit on 8-9-2008 by ElectroMagnetic Multivers]



posted on Sep, 8 2008 @ 10:39 AM
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I think the OP would be greatly improved if the OP had taken the time to write ' In My Humble Opinion ' at top and bottom



posted on Sep, 8 2008 @ 10:43 AM
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Just do not bother even reading that. We have had civilisation for thousands of years now, and you say you have answers that no one has ever thought of before.

I for one will keep believeing that my soul is mine. If it were not, people would have no problem commiting suicide, would they as it would not matter. No matter how crap my life is, i will live it, and die of natural causes, because i believe in the individual soul thing.



posted on Sep, 8 2008 @ 10:44 AM
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Originally posted by Dock6
I think the OP would be greatly improved if the OP had taken the time to write ' In My Humble Opinion ' at top and bottom


er...


No one can refute this. The logic is flawless.


and


I'm here to share, not to argue or to attempt to be refuted. I know I'm right already.


IMO, he doesn't care if people think him arrogant, just wants to get his message across, but I agree a lil 'IMO' would involve people more, rather being told whats right and their wrong. Lol, prepare to be asked for 'proof', lol.

EMM

Edit: Lmao, I couldn't have been proven right any quicker:


"
Just do not bother even reading that. We have had civilisation for thousands of years now, and you say you have answers that no one has ever thought of before.

I for one will keep believeing that my soul is mine. If it were not, people would have no problem commiting suicide, would they as it would not matter. No matter how crap my life is, i will live it, and die of natural causes, because i believe in the individual soul thing."


[edit on 8-9-2008 by ElectroMagnetic Multivers]



posted on Sep, 8 2008 @ 10:51 AM
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Well it sounds more like Hinduism than anything else. That is more or less the exact message the Gita teaches. Except for a few things of course. The ultimate "goal" is to superceede the universe and return to the source, being beyond all time and space and also beyond a void. The incarnations all lead to this one way or another i suppose.

But no, it's not new information.



posted on Sep, 8 2008 @ 10:57 AM
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In my opinion it is all perception. One sees a person as finite and another as eternal. Myself, I see me as more than the physical and I know this because I have been outside of my body. There are so many questions that I would love to ask myself and to get answers in return, but sadly this has not happened yet, or at least that I have perceived. Perhaps that is the point? We all learn in our own time, and we indirectly teach others and they teach us. Welcome to the world, and thank you for visiting, and I hope you have had an interesting journey.



posted on Sep, 8 2008 @ 11:28 AM
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Originally posted by Mozzy
Well it sounds more like Hinduism than anything else. That is more or less the exact message the Gita teaches. Except for a few things of course. The ultimate "goal" is to superceede the universe and return to the source, being beyond all time and space and also beyond a void. The incarnations all lead to this one way or another i suppose.


That is intriguing, as when I was considering my 'model', I realised that it was inevitable for everything that existed, to become as sentient and concious, aswell as aware as the universe itself originally, this in turn, led me to only one place. Once an individual reaches this stage of enlightenment, they themselves, could be considered the original concious universe, and in time, would split itself again. Now as most notice, this would lead us to the universe originally experiencing individuality, before it chose to split. This would then be a whole new universe, in which it would be the whole, rather than a 'piece of the whole'. Would this not define infinity?

I'm sorry, I really don't have the words to convey this accurately.



posted on Sep, 9 2008 @ 08:31 AM
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Originally posted by ElectroMagnetic Multivers
Logic is a point of view, it varies from person to person, therefore your logic, isn't the same as mine.


Actually, no. Logic of the eternal is not a point of view, opinion is. I'm implementing objective logic here, not subjective opinion.

However, replacing figure of speech with technicality, the logic that I am presenting is a point of view that we all share, but most are not aware of, if any.


IMO, we are never right, we can only be close to the right answer, or know we're near it, and even if we were right, we couldn't know it in this life time, so it wouldn't matter.


Then is what you just said above right? If we can never be right, according to your opinion, then why do you make such statements about it? You're obviously wrong either way by default of your opinion as soon as you begin to speak about it. You refute yourself.

You're distraught, and I'm sorry for this. I hope you see the way clearly and that you find what's RIGHT. Empty subjective opinions do not matter to eternity, truth does.


Agreed, IMO, we are all a matter of experience, the experience of individuality, an all knowing being could comprehend and experience everything, except individuality,


According to your own opinion, again, you are not right because you can't ever be.

But according to universal logic, anyway, you are still not right. The eternal one is an individual itself and at the same time it is not. It experiences itself as an individual through creatures, yet is one essence shared by all.

Furthermore, anything that is singular is an individual. In-divi-dual, it takes two things to know individuality. Eternity can only be one. As its immeasurable essence it is not an individual, or if you wish to call it an individual because it is a ONE, then it has no other eternal one which to contrast against.


could comprehend it, but not experience it, this IMO, is what the universe was, one concsious being, and was created by a conscious action, of splitting itself into all its forms, I am one of those forms, aswell as a rock, a molecule, a plant or planet or star.


There was no creation. Everything always has been. Eternity can not be created, it defines itself as having no beginning and no end.

Either way, what you say is not right, admitted by you. You will only go as far as speculation if you don't believe in truth v.s. fallacy. When you believe that you can be right and you realize how important the truth is, you may become more pedantic and well thought out logically.


Although I agree, that essentially we are all one, but IMO, individuality is the key. When we die, we will reincarnate again, as whatever we choose, what ever we haven't already experienced, we will experience,


There is no choice, that's an illusion. You say whatever we haven't already experienced, if time is eternal then we've already experienced eternal things, that is according to your logic. Because time is never beginning from the present back, and never ending from the present forward. This again is only your opinion and has nothing to do with the way that the universe objectively works. Individuality is experienced through the creature, but the soul is one eternity shared. No souls, plural, are eternal as explained, only the eternal one. There is no possible way for us to reincarnate as individual souls, this individuality is only the experience of this single creature called the Human, however this does not mean that the energy that makes up our bodies will not be recycled into other things, as we should all know by now.


from our eternal point of view, each and everyone/thing will go through this, becoming everything that could possibly be and adding that experience to their overall experience, thus altering their perception of the 'universe', as a whole, as well as in part.


You can only be everything there is to be if there is an finite amount of things and an infinite amount of time and also only if you are one of many eternal individual souls that is reincarnating (already explained why this can't be), therefore you must believe that the creatures of the universe are finite and static in genre, and thus also either not evolving or static in nature. However, if the creatures are infinite in genre and infinitely changing in an infinite time and not repeating itself exactly the same way twice, then it is impossible for an eternal individual soul to be everything.

A ratio of eternal time subsequent to a finite amount of things will eventuate into the conclusion that you present above, however, as with time, space too is eternal. Therefore the things to be are infinite. Your consciousness that you experience right now is only a result of receiving the 5 senses of the individual creature's body that you experience yourself as. You are not an eternal, yet finite being, but you are sharing the eternal soul as a finite creature.


I don't agree with being dead eternally to be honest, I'm not going to say your wrong, as I don't know if I'm right, so have no gauge to compare, something people tend to forget. For me, it makes no sense, you suggest we get our measley 80 years ish (if your lucky) out of the rest of eternity? for what? everything in nature is based on harmony, balance, this offers no balance, that I can see.


Balance and perfection is the way that everything already is, whether you expect it or agree with it.


Again, morality and logic are human concepts, to describe a way to act or behave. Would you go out and kill someone if you weren't told not to?


They are not only Human concepts, they are concepts of all sentient creatures. It is a logical question. Do you wish to survive or die as a species? If you choose survive and you really mean it, then love must be the way, and sooner or later you will develop and/or remember caring. If you do not care, then your choice will not be love.

So, to survive as a technologically advanced species takes love, neutrality, ally, and an awareness of shared unity through the individuality of the creature.


Logic is the same, it's a human concept


No, flawless logic, logic of the eternal, that which leads to truth is universal.

Thank you for your reply. Please do understand that I am not attempting to be harsh nor mean or rude if it may come off as such. All I can do is be honest.

[edit on 9-9-2008 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]



posted on Sep, 9 2008 @ 09:26 AM
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I'm diggin your thread LastOut.

I think the universe consumes and simultaneously births itself.

We are all as old as the universe, we will become everything in time. May not realize it though I guess.

We are as cells in an organism. We also (for the most part) flee from instability to stability, as electrons do.

I think when bugs orbit street lamps, or knock into your windows due to being "attracted" to a light source.. they display the fractal truth. Mereley another iteration/layer in the strata of sizes, iterations of the same concepts (particle systems behavior) birthed and existing in a different rung on the same spatial ladder. (say you were in the middle rung, moving up, you increase in size. Moving down you lessen your size.)



posted on Sep, 9 2008 @ 09:39 AM
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Originally posted by Mozzy
Well it sounds more like Hinduism than anything else.


It is nothing you've ever seen or heard before.


That is more or less the exact message the Gita teaches.


No. It isn't, I do not look at other religions nor do I study them. The only religion that I've ever been somewhat familiar with is Christianity. This is not religion, it is existence. It's not fairy tale and feel good mental delusion, it's truth and irrefutably so. The know of this logic is flawless and will always be such because it is eternal and universal.


Except for a few things of course. The ultimate "goal" is to superceede the universe and return to the source, being beyond all time and space and also beyond a void. The incarnations all lead to this one way or another i suppose.


It is impossible to "supersede" the universe. It is also impossible to be beyond all space and time when space and time are eternal, it is also impossible to be beyond a void, since a void is immeasurable, thus we don't know where it starts or begins to ever have a point of reference from which to measure any beyond.

There are no incarnations, as explained in the O.P.


But no, it's not new information.


Oh really? So can you tell me where you have seen it before? Sources please. If you're going to make empty claims I'm going to make substantial demands. I am a softy for love, but a hard-knock for truth and truth is love. Don't take me lightly, I don't take love or truth lightly.

Please don't attempt to rob me, others or the message of its authenticity and originality through your pointless ignorance.

Nonetheless, thank you for your not well thought out and unsubstantial marked with speculation and conjecture-reply.

As I said, I know that I know what is true and what is flawless. I'm not here to listen to people's illogical opinions or subjective disillusionment.

Those that can understand, take from it what you will, those that don't, it's not your time to.

[edit on 9-9-2008 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]



posted on Sep, 9 2008 @ 09:40 AM
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reply to post by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal
 


Interesting analogy, it brings me back to one of my astral travels with my spiritual guide.

As I have many of a teaching nature.

I was once brought in front of a tree and as I look into the tree the tree rather than leaves had this pear shaped bulbs of light.

My guide told me that after we die we all come back to "the source" the source been the tree and the souls been the leaves, after we are ready to embark into another life or mission we separate from the source again.

Now while we become one with the "source" it gave the impression that once we separate from that "source" we become independent until the next time we meet with the "source" again.

So no always we interpret every thing the same way even when actually it does sounds like the same concept.



posted on Sep, 9 2008 @ 10:01 AM
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Originally posted by marg6043
Interesting analogy.


Thank you. It is the truth. I'm hoping coupled with action to manifest that hopeful outlook that it will not only interest you, but reveal everything for what it truly is and open everyone's eyes and change the ways of life on this planet.


My guide told me that after we die we all come back to "the source" the source been the tree and the souls been the leaves, after we are ready to embark into another life or mission we separate from the source again.


However beautiful and poetic this analogy may sound, it is not true that we are eternal souls. The tree should be replaced with the only eternal one that is the organism that is the universe. Then all will make sense.


Now while we become one with the "source" it gave the impression that once we separate from that "source" we become independent until the next time we meet with the "source" again.


The source being the knowledge of the eternal one that we all share. We are never separate from it, as there is no separation. Absence is not a space that exists to separate, it is an absence of space, therefore it can not become between any two things. In the mind, though, through lost or dismembered and tainted knowledge we can become separate from the eternal one that we all share, this I do understand and relate on you with. Is this what you mean?


So no always we interpret every thing the same way even when actually it does sounds like the same concept.


There is the law of one and unites all of us. To say that nothing is absolute is to state absolutely that nothing will ever be absolute.

To say that we never interpret anything the same and for all of us to agree on that, means that we interpret the fact that we don't interpret everything the same, the same way. There is always one common bond. It is the eternal one.

We can not escape one. We all share the same eternal one, there aren't different eternal one's, or "Gods".

[edit on 9-9-2008 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]

[edit on 9-9-2008 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]



posted on Sep, 9 2008 @ 10:32 AM
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Originally posted by depth om
I'm diggin your thread LastOut.


Thank you depth om.


I think the universe consumes and simultaneously births itself.


It does. All things must regenerate. To generate and regenerate we know that there must be consumption or usage of some type of energy other than the source of the entity, machine, organism or thing itself.

Life is a cycle of birth and death, for Humans at least, we must consume to stay alive, and to stay alive as a specie we must not only learn to love, but we must also birth on some way or another, which again requires consumption.


We are all as old as the universe, we will become everything in time. May not realize it though I guess.


We may or may not. If the universe is not static and thus even the genres of things are infinitely changing in an infinite amount of space and not repeating their forms twice, thus an infinite amount of evolution of occurring in every moment and new forms rising and old creatures going eternally extinct, then it is impossible to become everything in time. However, if the creatures of the universe and the habitats of planets mimic each other occasionally, but eternally so, and we do have identical or almost identical environments popping up in the universe making for an evolutionary repeat, then it would be considered feasible that one's individual soul could become everything. But as described in the O.P., there are not individual eternal souls.


We are as cells in an organism. We also (for the most part) flee from instability to stability, as electrons do.


Psychologically, yes. We tend to experience instability and stability. It should be known though that the eternal one, or the universe as we call it, is eternally stable. It is perfect. It will not be destroyed. All things are already in perfect sync and harmony. If anything was out of sync then the whole machine would cease to function. So far, for eternity the universe hasn't stopped.


Thank you for the reply. I really enjoyed it. ♥



posted on Sep, 9 2008 @ 10:43 AM
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From an infinite perspective we can be individual souls with free-will and at the same time ONE. This is something that a mind steeped in polarity doesnt grasp.

Your thread title nothing more than communist BS extrapolated to a spiritual level.



posted on Sep, 9 2008 @ 10:48 AM
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Originally posted by lucid eyes
From an infinite perspective we can be individual souls with free-will and at the same time ONE.


Sure, you can call us individual souls as individual creatures. However, there are not individual eternal souls as explained if you took the time to read the O.P.

There is only room for one eternity. Time and space are one, to be more exact, an eternal one.

If you're going to make empty claims with no logic invoked then I'm going to ask for a recapitulation. So please explain why.

I'm sorry that you're angry at communists and angry in general, and now taking it out on me because it conflicts with your "beliefs".



posted on Sep, 9 2008 @ 10:53 AM
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One of the main goals of the ONE is to split himself up into many individuals to go out and experience.

Messages like the one you promote in your thread title work to take back this path of exploration and thereby delete it.

Yes, I am angry that most "spirituality" teaches this doctrine in misunderstanding of what the adventure is all about.

Our goal is not one-ness because one-ness is where we come from, who we are.



posted on Sep, 9 2008 @ 10:55 AM
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I also comprehend that this knowledge takes time to understand and truly sink in.

I expect some of you to be outraged and angry at this knowledge and I also expect and understand that some of you are just plain angry for whatever your reasons may be, but please attempt to reply with intellectual fortitude and logical explanation so that we can engage in mutually respectful dialogue. On the contrary I also expect some of you to be happy at this, content with this, or just totally uninterested in it probably because it doesn't even ring a bell with you yet.

You will only receive back what you give to me most of the time.

It's impossible to pick apart an insult or a farce without revealing the ignorance in it and of it.

I could ignore them but I'm not fond of pop-shots.

Thank you.

[edit on 9-9-2008 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]



posted on Sep, 9 2008 @ 11:01 AM
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Originally posted by lucid eyes
One of the main goals of the ONE is to split himself up into many individuals to go out and experience.


Itself, not "himself". The eternal one is not only of a male sex. It's not necessarily a goal as much as just the way that it is.


Messages like the one you promote in your thread title work to take back this path of exploration and thereby delete it.


My thread title promotes truth and infallibility and how it trumps dogma and opinion, even numbers en mass attributed to a religious organization. It doesn't matter how many people think something is the truth, it doesn't make it the truth.

A lie is a lie no matter how many people believe it, the truth is still the truth even if no one believes it.


Our goal is not one-ness because one-ness is where we come from, who we are.


First off, I'm not teaching spirituality. I'm teaching existence and eternal universal logic and knowledge.

And you obviously do not comprehend the message being conveyed here. But that's okay, I don't expect many if any to right off the bat.

We all share the one eternity, that which is the universe, okay? We are all individual creatures. Everything is united by and through the eternal one regardless of what we do, believe or currently have knowledge of.

I still don't understand why you're so angry. Is it at me or at "spiritual teachers"?

[edit on 9-9-2008 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]



posted on Sep, 9 2008 @ 11:06 AM
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As expected...if someone disagrees with your propposal its because he "doesnt get it" or "is not ready for the truth".

The usual pattern of deception.



End of communication.






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