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Jobless Rate, Recession, and Obama

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posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 08:10 AM
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Here's a quick reality check for all of you who support Obama and his plan to raise minimum wage and who also wring your hands over the latest 6.1% jobless rate.

If companies are already laying off workers now at an unacceptable rate, increasing the cost of hiring workers will do the following:

* make hiring new entry level workers less likely
* make laying off more entry level workers more likely
* outsourcing of service jobs to India more likely
* make international companies less likely to locate businesses in the U.S.
* decrease tax revenues by cutting into companies' profit margins

And if that's not enough, Obama's plans to raise taxes on businesses at the same time will amplify all of the above consequences.

So while we are not in a recession yet, we might be in one when the new administration takes over in 2009. Nothing Obama is proposing is going to make doing business in the U.S more attractive to the large corporations who supply jobs. Nothing Obama is proposing is going to make it easier for middle-class families to create successful small businesses.

If you believe the current administration and Congress are driving the economy into the ground, wait until you see what Obama and a Democratic Congress are going to do.

You will be longing for the good old days of 6.1% unemployment and $4 a gallon gas.








[edit on 6-9-2008 by jamie83]




posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 08:35 AM
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Originally posted by jamie83
Here's a quick reality check for all of you who support Obama and his plan to raise minimum wage and who also wring your hands over the latest 6.1% jobless rate.

If companies are already laying off workers now at an unacceptable rate, increasing the cost of hiring workers will do the following:

* make hiring new entry level workers less likely
* make laying off more entry level workers more likely
* outsourcing of service jobs to India more likely
* make international companies less likely to locate businesses in the U.S.
* decrease tax revenues by cutting into companies' profit margins

And if that's not enough, Obama's plans to raise taxes on businesses at the same time will amplify all of the above consequences.

So while we are not in a recession yet, we might be in one when the new administration takes over in 2009. Nothing Obama is proposing is going to make doing business in the U.S more attractive to the large corporations who supply jobs. Nothing Obama is proposing is going to make it easier for middle-class families to create successful small businesses.

If you believe the current administration and Congress are driving the economy into the ground, wait until you see what Obama and a Democratic Congress are going to do.

You will be longing for the good old days of 6.1% unemployment and $4 a gallon gas.

[edit on 6-9-2008 by jamie83]





(Off-topic text removed)

If the right is so concerned about the economy why can't Mccain be specific?

I know why,,,, I know why????


Because if he actually told the public that his entire economic plan was only the following - PER johnmcpitbull.com

lower the corporate tax rate to 25% - from 35%

Phase out AMT

Get rid of inheritance tax up to $10,000,000.00

lower the top 1% to 9%

shift tax brackets in order to increase T1 - T2 m. income % tax.

(Off-topic post removed)

Mod Note: Please Remain on Topic -- Please Review

[edit on 9-6-2008 by chissler]



posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 09:01 AM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 09:17 AM
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Man, people instantly attack you when you try to give your opinion. Whats up with that? He must have a lot of personal issues that need attention.

I agree with you, putting pressure on business making them pay more just increases the layoffs and raises the prices of consumables. The only logical way is to do it gradually and people will adjust over time not in a instant.

Obama talks a big game but will not hold up to his promises. And if by chance he does the house of cards will come down.



posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 09:17 AM
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Dunno Jamie,
Its quite obvious looking at your constant drivel against everything obama you couldn’t stomach a reasonable response if it managed to infest itself in your gut..

But I tell you what,

anything, absolutely anything has to be better 'for' the economy, than a government that prioritises corporate greed & war over the American people.
Any anyone who disagrees with that is a traitor, because the American people are what comes first, no matter what.
But its clear, through the last 8yrs, that the republicans, no matter whos in charge look toward a happy corporate entity, than a safe and secure citizen.
And frankly, a man who sings ' bomb bomb bomb Iran '
or a man who backs Bush
or a man who looks at Iraq as a 100yr war instead of a mistake is nothing but a facist, or a facist supporter.

I’m not saying Obama isnt in bed with the corporate side, but the current admin has a 30 something % approval rating, and this is a government that didnt even win power.

Want my honest thoughts?.

People are starting to wise up to the amount of accounts you have on ATS, and the fact your either being paid for this constant BS against the democrats, or your directly tied to it.


The reason these threads dont go far, is because its nothing but your personal attack against things an administration your against, might do, in 'your wet dreams'

because that would justify everything your saying today, tomorrow.

(Inappropriate text removed)

Mod Note: Courtesy is Mandatory -- Please Review



[edit on 6-9-2008 by Agit8dChop]

[edit on 6-9-2008 by Agit8dChop]

[edit on 9-6-2008 by chissler]



posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 09:17 AM
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Jamie, I've got a question.

Why are most of your threads about Obama? I'm not trying to read anything into it, but you're very insistant that he's the Antichrist and is therefore; not experienced enough to endure the rigours of office. Is it only the political arena that you're interested in?



posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 09:31 AM
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Originally posted by Agit8dChop


Anything, absolutley anything has to be better 'for' the economy



No! This is my exact point!!

Obama was forced to pander to the far-left to get the nomination by proposing economic plans that the far-left would embrace -higher taxes on businesses, raise the minimum wage, universal health care, etc.

BUT... in a weakening economy these plans would only accelerate the problems we have now. Increasing taxes, especially on businesses, in a weak economy is going to crush the economy.





People are starting to wise up to the amount of accounts you have on ATS, and the fact yor either being paid for this constant BS against the democrats, or your directly tied to it.


I have one account on ATS and I am not getting paid. My thought is that many people simply are brainwashed with a liberal ideology and can't form a cogent argument so in desperation they resort to personal and unfounded attacks.





But it doesnt matter, the next president has already been selected.. and when i meet you in the trenches, or in the camps.. ill definately spit in your face and say

' traitor to the peace loving people '



So here's a summary of your um... well-thought out response to the issues I raised:

1. Anything is better for the economy than what we have now, even increasing costs of labor and taxes for businesses.

2. Personal attack on me.

3. Threat to spit in my face for pointing out catastrophic flaws in your hero's plan.

Great post. Keep up the good work!



***********************************


Isn't there something in the TOS about discussing the topic and not the poster?



posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 09:36 AM
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Originally posted by MacDonagh
Jamie, I've got a question.

Why are most of your threads about Obama? I'm not trying to read anything into it, but you're very insistant that he's the Antichrist and is therefore; not experienced enough to endure the rigours of office. Is it only the political arena that you're interested in?


Most of my posts are about Obama because I passionately believe that his misguided plans will greatly damage the U.S., especially combined with a Democratic Congress.

Do you have any comment on the topic of this thread, which is how Obama's plan to increase the minimum wage and corporate taxes in a weakening economy will drive the economy into the ground?

See, nobody else is proposing this idiotic economic plan for the U.S. -only Obama. It's the result of pandering to the far-left to win the primaries, but it will like driving a stake through the heart of an already weakened economy.



posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 09:37 AM
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* Reward Companies that Support American Workers: Barack Obama introduced the Patriot Employer Act of 2007 with Senators Richard Durbin (D-IL) and Sherrod Brown (D-OH) to reward companies that create good jobs with good benefits for American workers. The legislation would provide a tax credit to companies that maintain or increase the number of full-time workers in America relative to those outside the US; maintain their corporate headquarters in America if it has ever been in America; pay decent wages; prepare workers for retirement; provide health insurance; and support employees who serve in the military.

Invest in the Manufacturing Sector and Create 5 Million New Green Jobs

* Invest in our Next Generation Innovators and Job Creators: Obama will create an Advanced Manufacturing Fund to identify and invest in the most compelling advanced manufacturing strategies. The Fund will have a peer-review selection and award process based on the Michigan 21st Century Jobs Fund, a state-level initiative that has awarded over $125 million to Michigan businesses with the most innovative proposals to create new products and new jobs in the state.




# Fight for Fair Trade: Obama will fight for a trade policy that opens up foreign markets to support good American jobs. He will use trade agreements to spread good labor and environmental standards around the world and stand firm against agreements like the Central American Free Trade Agreement that fail to live up to those important benchmarks. Obama will also pressure the World Trade Organization to enforce trade agreements and stop countries from continuing unfair government subsidies to foreign exporters and nontariff barriers on U.S. exports.
# Amend the North American Free Trade Agreement: Obama believes that NAFTA and its potential were oversold to the American people. Obama will work with the leaders of Canada and Mexico to fix NAFTA so that it works for American workers.



JAMIE83 I already posted MCCAINS plan-

HERE is a 10th of OBAMA's

HE WILL ADDRESS NAFTA

CUT TAX HAVENS

LOWER MIDDLE CLASS TAXES

TAX THE UPPER 1% higher

GIVE TAX INCENTIVES TO COMPANIES THAT DO NOT OUTSOURCE

RAISE TARIFS TO PREVENT FURTHER BLEEDING OF AMERICAN JOBS

EXTEND AND MAKE PERMANENT R&D TAX CUTS FOR COMPANIES

SHALL I GO ON???


MUCH BETTER THEN MCPITBULLS
short sighted BUSH era greedy six paragraph plan .



posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 09:38 AM
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Jamie, you're absolutely right. Especially about "Mental Modulator" and some of the other posters.

I'm not very educated about the economy, but I understand the basics. The things Obama wants to do, seem to go counter to what we need right now. When the democrats finally passed the minimum wage hike, it was obvious that business would need to cut people loose. It seems like putting more burden on these business, could only hurt the economy more. How does attacking corporations and small business help to grow the economy? Its not logical!

reply to post by mental modulator
 




HE WILL ADDRESS NAFTA



Lets be clear. NAFTA was a Bill Clinton's baby.

[edit on 6-9-2008 by Dronetek]



posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 09:40 AM
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reply to post by jamie83
 


There is one SIMPLE reason we have a weak economy,
and thats because the republicans are in control, giving the peoples money to the corporate entities.

yes, the economy was weak before Bush, but it was never in the same league as it is today,

Id vote neither obama nor mccain, but i dont believe your bs about having one account or not having an agenda.
Its just to obvious mate, id try different tactics or something before your employers wise up to the obvious efforts your using via online propoganda.

nothings worse than being caught out, and its not just me seeing your true side.

the economys had it, kaput.
neither one can save it, the time for saving it was months ago, but no one wanted to.. doesnt that say something?

Majority know this, thats why this election is being played`out on the tv like it is, its nothing but a re-hash of idol, big bro, britney spears, paris hilton and all the best bits from survivor throw in some post 911 fear with some good ol american bombs, and youve got todays election.

Mccains going to get it, no matter what. your simply placing the trail now, so that when everyone looks back it can be said


''' see, we knew the truth back then, so any conspiracy as to how mccain won are void '''

I hear OXFORD are including a new word in the 2009 release

- blind patriot - 1. American citizens who'd rather appease for the 21st century facists than stand up for their countries foundations

I swore after if it was decided you had multiple accounts and were posting online for some external agenda id never read or take note of you again.
excuse the half dozen or so burbons which are forcing me to post this, im really just waiting for the WA election to be over.. so dont expect a reply!



posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 09:44 AM
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Where did you get this info from Jamie?? Do you have a source??

You do know that a politician is a politician don't you?? The days where a president is working for ALL the American people are over. We are a segregated country and whats worse is we add to the problem when we spread things like this. So weather you are a Mccain supporter or an Obama supporter, realize that it don't make a difference. They are on one team and we are on the other. They play their cards better though by making sure the American people are segregated. We don't work together anymore because we are more concerned about what "party" we belong to. But what people never realize is when this is all over, they will still be attending the same meetings, parties, and events. They will still be shaking hands and talking nice. So whats the point in fighting each other?? They only do it for the political season, we do it all year round. We do the dirty work for them IMO. This thread is a perfect example of it.



posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 09:45 AM
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We are in the situation we find ourselves because of the current Administration's 8yr kegger. They have displayed the economic policies of a drunken sailor on leave. Every facet of America has been eroded by these clowns. They're in charge. Teh buck stops with them. We are in worse shape by a very, very large margin than I have seen in my 56+ years. There is no escaping that fact.

There is also no escaping the fact that John McCain (in his own words) backed the President (aka the drunken sailor) over 90% of the time. He has therefore (by his own admission) helped to create this unprecedented mess. Obama (and once again for the scorekeepers, I'm not an Obama supporter) didn't have to pander to anyone for the nomination. It is abundantly clear to anyone with half an intellect that ANYTHING is better than letting the Republicans continue with this onslaught on the Constitution, the economy and what little is left of our internationsl reputation.

Your threads offend me and I would suspect any thinking person.



posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 10:13 AM
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Originally posted by Agit8dChop
There is one SIMPLE reason we have a weak economy,
and thats because the republicans are in control, giving the peoples money to the corporate entities.


Seriously, how would this make the economy weak even if it were true? Corporations could then use the money to expand their businesses and hire new people.


but i dont believe your bs about having one account or not having an agenda.
Its just to obvious mate, id try different tactics or something before your employers wise up to the obvious efforts your using via online propoganda.

nothings worse than being caught out, and its not just me seeing your true side.

I swore after if it was decided you had multiple accounts



I see you were able to make your response more efficient, albeit less intelligent, this time around.

1. Everything wrong with the world is the fault of evil corporations and republicans.

2. Attack me.

3. Attack me.

Why eliminate the threat to spit in my face? At least it made you previous post more interesting.



posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 10:17 AM
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Originally posted by jamie83
If companies are already laying off workers now at an unacceptable rate, increasing the cost of hiring workers will do the following:


Do you have any data to support what appears to be vacuous rhetoric?

All of the jobs data I've seen indicates the vast majority of those being "laid off" are within the ranks of middle management and skilled workers -- hence job categories well above the minimum wage mark.

Please help us understand your rationale by supplying supporting information, or at least historic comparisons, that substantiate your position.



posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 10:17 AM
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Why is it that when a position cannot be defended the messenger is usually attacked? All this does is give credibility to the messengers opinion.


I would agree that that reps. have lost the label of being fiscally conservative under Bush, although alot of it can be attributed to the war, which, at first, almost all dems and reps agreed on.

If you look at the polls from '06, when dems took control of congress, the Bush and congress' approval ratings were both around 20-25% depending on the poll. Much of the dems platform in '06 was economic reform and it is my opinion this is the top reason they were successful in winning the majority. Since then the POTUS ratings have went up and congress' ratings went down. I haven't seen any of the policies the dems run on in '06 have any success.



posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 10:18 AM
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Originally posted by mental modulator
HERE is a 10th of OBAMA's

HE WILL ADDRESS NAFTA

CUT TAX HAVENS

LOWER MIDDLE CLASS TAXES

TAX THE UPPER 1% higher

GIVE TAX INCENTIVES TO COMPANIES THAT DO NOT OUTSOURCE

RAISE TARIFS TO PREVENT FURTHER BLEEDING OF AMERICAN JOBS

EXTEND AND MAKE PERMANENT R&D TAX CUTS FOR COMPANIES

SHALL I GO ON???



No, no need to keep cutting and pasting from Obama's website as if that's a reliable source for what will happen if the plans are implemented.

And do you think typing in all caps gets your point across? It's just annoying.

Here's an article from the Wall St. Journal which quotes PriceWaterhouseCoopers as saying Obama's Patriot Act will hurt U.S. businesses, not help them.

So who are you going to believe? The Wall St. Journal and a 3rd party accounting firm that works for big businesses or Obama himself?

And if Obama's plan is so great for businesses, why haven't any big businesses come out and endorsed it?


In other words, a patriotic employer is one which fulfills the fondest Big Labor agenda, regardless of the competitive implications. The proposal ignores the marketplace reality that businesses hire a work force they can afford to pay and still make money. Coercing companies into raising wages and benefits above market rates may only lead to fewer workers getting hired in the first place.

Under Mr. Obama's plan, "patriot employers" qualify for a 1% tax credit on their profits. To finance this tax break, American companies with subsidiaries abroad would have to pay the U.S. corporate tax on profits earned abroad, rather than the corporate tax of the host country where they are earned. Since the U.S. corporate tax rate is 35%, while most of the world has a lower rate, this amounts to a big tax increase on earnings owned abroad.

Put another way, U.S. companies would suddenly have to pay a higher tax rate than their Chinese, Japanese and European competitors. According to research by Peter Merrill, an international tax expert at PriceWaterhouseCoopers, this change would "raise the cost of capital of U.S. multinationals and cause them to lose market share to foreign rivals." Apparently Mr. Obama believes that by making U.S. companies less profitable and less competitive world-wide, they will somehow be able to create more jobs in America.


Source



Now this time, in your own words, try explaining how higher corporate taxes and higher minimum wage is going to create more jobs.



posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 10:23 AM
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Originally posted by KaginD
Where did you get this info from Jamie?? Do you have a source??


Which specific information are you referring to?

For information about how Obama is going to raise taxes while trying to convince you he's on your side, here's an article in the WSJ that might help.

Obama's Patriot Act


And do you really need a source to understand the cause and effect relationship between raising minimum wage and the number of people who will be hired vs. the number that will be fired?

Have you worked in the real world enough to understand how many people get paid under the table already because of the burdensome taxes on both corporations and individuals?



posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 10:26 AM
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Originally posted by Dronetek
Jamie, you're absolutely right. Especially about "Mental Modulator" and some of the other posters.

I'm not very educated about the economy, but I understand the basics. The things Obama wants to do, seem to go counter to what we need right now. When the democrats finally passed the minimum wage hike, it was obvious that business would need to cut people loose. It seems like putting more burden on these business, could only hurt the economy more. How does attacking corporations and small business help to grow the economy? Its not logical!

reply to post by mental modulator
 




HE WILL ADDRESS NAFTA



Lets be clear. NAFTA was a Bill Clinton's baby.

[edit on 6-9-2008 by Dronetek]


FOR christs sake read a little.

OBAMA thinks NAFTA was a mistake for the most part...
THE US currently does not enforce the clauses that would benefit AMERICA.
AS it is practiced now we let MEXICO get AWAY with murder,,, WE LET Mexico
BREAK their initial AGREEMENTS when NAFTA was passed...

THE only thing we get is cheap imports... HOWEVER Mexico initially agreed to BUYING a certain QUANTITY of US goods.

OBAMA want to renegotiate NAFTA, MAKE IT MORE pro US business and ENFORCE THE
PROMISES made buy the signies.( MEXICO )


OBAMAS PLAN is SO much more comprehensive and forward thinking, there no comparison...


IF you would bother to read OBAMAs plan you would see that he and his folks have devised a substantial, logical and methodical approach.

I think it is so silly when you guys say socialism...

Over half of economic plan is PRO BUSINESS.

JOHN MCCAINS PLAN IS LITERALLY six bullet points ---- once again six bullet points???

THE difference is like school fair and las vegas.

I wish you guys would bother to read OBAMAS plan - I have actually read about half of MCCAINS entire platform,,, it pales in comparison, it is short sighted and it has been done to death!



How does attacking corporations and small business help to grow the economy? Its not logical!


PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD READ, DON"T ASSUME...


* Reward Companies that Support American Workers: Barack Obama introduced the Patriot Employer Act of 2007 with Senators Richard Durbin (D-IL) and Sherrod Brown (R-OH) to reward companies that create good jobs with good benefits for American workers. The legislation would provide a tax credit to companies that maintain or increase the number of full-time workers in America relative to those outside the US; maintain their corporate headquarters in America if it has ever been in America; pay decent wages; prepare workers for retirement; provide health insurance; and support employees who serve in the military



# End Tax Breaks for Companies that Send Jobs Overseas: Barack Obama believes that companies should not get billions of dollars in tax deductions for moving their operations overseas. Obama will also fight to ensure that public contracts are awarded to companies that are committed to American workers.



.
# Make the Research and Development Tax Credit Permanent: Barack Obama wants investments in a skilled research and development workforce and technology infrastructure to be supported here in America so that American workers and communities will benefit. Obama wants to make the Research and Development tax credit permanent so that firms can rely on it when making decisions to invest in domestic R&D over multi-year timeframes.





Provide Tax Relief for Small Businesses and Start Up Companies: Barack Obama will eliminate all capital gains taxes on start-up and small businesses to encourage innovation and job creation.



posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 10:34 AM
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Originally posted by jamie83

Originally posted by KaginD
Where did you get this info from Jamie?? Do you have a source??


Which specific information are you referring to?

For information about how Obama is going to raise taxes while trying to convince you he's on your side, here's an article in the WSJ that might help.

Obama's Patriot Act


And do you really need a source to understand the cause and effect relationship between raising minimum wage and the number of people who will be hired vs. the number that will be fired?

Have you worked in the real world enough to understand how many people get paid under the table already because of the burdensome taxes on both corporations and individuals?



Okay. First of all, I never questioned your educational background (which at the moment seems slim to none) so don't ever question my work history or knowledge of where my money is going. The reason I asked you for a source is because I don't just take peoples word for it, which I am sure you would much rather. It seems to me that if anyone questions your reasoning you become very insulting and agitated. Don't post a thread if your going to get upset and insulting if people question it.






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