Underwater cave found with skeletons in them.

Originally posted by Hanslune
reply to post by Tybrus

 

Regretably much of this book by Cremo was written to support his belief in Hindu creationism. Take anything said in that book with a piece of salt the size of Gibraltar.

True but the issues raised are still worthy of discussion. Some of the archeological anomolies are very very interesting. This does not mean that creationism is correct though. If a dinosaur footprint and a human footprint are found in the same rock strata then this means they existed at the same time BUT this does NOT mean that "period" was several thousand years ago (to fit in with the creatinist calendar). It just means that our existing geological timeline needs rewriting. Unfortunately established theories support lots of careers and so change will not come without a fight.

Human beings throughout history have built settlements near the coast and river deltas. So most human settlements at the time of the last ice age will have been on the old coastline which is now under a considerable amount of water! DUH! No brainer....that's where the ice age archeology must take place. So the latest finds support the bleeding obvious.

I don't think it's Atlantis though! After all atlantis lies between the two great oceans and there is only one place on this planet surrounded by those two great oceans.........Antartica. Get a globe and turn it around and note where the two great oceans are!!!! Here's another trick to try. Mark on a globe the extent of the northern ice cap at the last ice age. put the centre of the ice sheet at the "new" north pole. Now take a look at where Antartica is....ooops!

Thanks for sharing. I have too always believed that Atlantis was located in the Carribean(Bimini Marr/Bahamas). I think the half a mile of Bimini Road or wall( limestone stones) were the prime indicator of this. Plus with study of locations, Atlantis fit best in the location of the offshore of Miami(80 km) and the sub tropical area, but not Mediterranean as as thought to be of Atlantis.

reply to post by Incarnated


Ah, but where one skeleton is given a definte range, the other three are kind of up in the air. Leading me to believe they are possibly not of the tsame time frame. And, more evidence of continued occupation than sudden death.
And you're right, reading isn't my strong point. After all, my last understanding was Nibiru cyces onece every 3,600 years.
The time scale needed for the tales from Sumner to be able to be recorded. Now, taking aside the fact that supposed only they were the ones affected by this apparent tradegy, the date of 13600 is much more than three times that time scale, roughly putting it a few centures earlier than the supposed time scale for Nibiru.
Now, normally I'd give a little for error, but apparently these folks were able to predict down to the day that Nibiru would return.
Until the date range is confirmed, it's as likely that they died unrelatedly, years apart.

Originally posted by ressiv
another proof of a big disaster about 13.000 years ago..human hide in a cave for shelter and drouwnd...
why do we here so little over that disaster.........

This disaster you speak of is fairly documented if you look hard enough.

Here's the story:

12,900 years ago the ige age was finally comeing to a close. Paleo humans were flourishing as was many pleistocene animals. But durring this time of glacial melting a time bomb was ticking away just waiting to blow. There was a super massive lake in Canada and part of the USA that was so huge it could hold all the water of every single lake on the planet in present day. (It is a whole lot bigger than it sounds.) This body of water is called Lake Agassiz. All through out the ice age the laurentide ice sheet held the lake in check. Well, that is up untill 12,900 years ago. The Laurentide ice sheet dam broke and all that fresh water emptied directly into the Atlantic Ocean. This crushed the thermohaline circulatory system and the Northern Hemisphere was slammed right back into an ice age in less than one single year. The ocean level wrose quite a bit in a single day. The earthquake from this must have been absolutly insane!

Now this is a possible reason on why you don't hear too much about it......

Whats happening today that seem pretty similar to this?

The polar ice caps are melting and will be totally gone very soon. Perhapse as little as this year or next year. All of this fresh water is going into the oceans. The thermohaline circulatory system already started to crumble as of January of 2007. The thermohaline will just get weaker and weaker untill.... BAM!!! OOPSE!! ICE AGE!!

You learn all about this sorta thing in studying Paleoclimatology, Paleooceanography, and the Pleistocene. I've been studying this sort of thing for over 20 years. I even wrote my own model for what will happen durring the next ice age, how the planet will look, the human death toll, and the safest places in the USA. It's indeed very grim but very interesting at the same time from a geological stand point.

~Valkyr~

Originally posted by dreamingawake
Thanks for sharing. I have too always believed that Atlantis was located in the Carribean(Bimini Marr/Bahamas). I think the half a mile of Bimini Road or wall( limestone stones) were the prime indicator of this. Plus with study of locations, Atlantis fit best in the location of the offshore of Miami(80 km) and the sub tropical area, but not Mediterranean as as thought to be of Atlantis.

I actually found sifficiant reason to beilve that Atlantis is in that area. So much so that I had planned a meeting at Temple University and a few other such places and was prepareing to go before an official board of inquary. I even had a sonar map of what I believed to be Atlantis. There was also one artifact taken from the same site. The last thing documented about the man who found the artifact is that he was being head hunted by the American Medical Association because he was 100% cureing incureable and fatal diseases in minutes or days. But then I started thinking...... and thinking.....

I thought about the Ancient Lebonese, Egyptians, Mayans, Chinese, and about 2 dozen other civilizations. These people had cyrstal technology that is still covered up to this day. These people could lift and move, in a controlled manner, 2000 ton objects with out physically touching them. That is 4,000,000 pounds of mass! Our present day cranes can't even do that! Where is it rumored that this technology originated? Atlantis! It is all done with sound reverberation and very large crystals.

I then imagined the United States Department Of Defence getting a hold of this technology. I imagined an entire city being lifted 100 feet into the air and then simply dropped! I immediatelt felt like Eintein for his entire life after the nuklear weapons were used. I was horrified! I did not want to be held personally responsible for the deaths of millions of people. So I memorized and incinerated every shread of data that I had and vowed Atlantis would NEVER be found.

Does this all sound like a bunch of crap? Try looking up the Nazi weapon called the Earthquake Generator. It works on the very same premis. As does a device created by Nicola Tesla. His device weighed only 6 pounds and fit into a coat pocket. When this device was attatched to the side of a building, the building shook like a major earthquake was hitting. This device was strong enough to shake a skyscraper and it weighed only 6 pounds.......

~Valkyr~

Originally posted by Stari
National Geographic link

This is quite interesting. I believe that Atlantis was in the Caribbean Sea and for divers to find skeletons that old in a cave underwater around that area is cool to me.

I just had to share... enjoy the article I did

Star

Hi Stari!

I have a problem with Nat Geo:

The polar ice caps melted dramatically 8,000 to 9,000 years ago, causing sea levels to rise hundreds of feet and submerging the burial grounds of the skeletons. Stalactites and stalagmites then grew around the remains, preventing them from being washed out to sea.

This, IMO, is a very sloppy article. How, for example, do stalactites and stalagmites grow in a cave that is already flooded?

Also:

Dubbed Eva de Naharon, or Eve of Naharon, the female skeleton has been dated at 13,600 years old...

...In addition to possibly altering the time line of human settlement in the Americas, the remains may cause experts to rethink where the first Americans came from, González added.

Yet the article itself links to another Nat Geo article about preClovis peoples that states:

The data the researchers collected narrowed the Clovis time frame to between 11,050 and 10,800 radiocarbon years ago. This translates to roughly 13,100 to 12,900 calendar years ago—a duration of 200 years.

IOW, reading the Nat Geo articles would leave one puzzled as to how this find is so groundbreaking. I mean, it predates a new estimate of the tenure of the Clovis people by only around 500 years. Surely no one believes that every single Clovis artifact has been found and dated.

What I mean is that this could just as easily be evidence that the Clovis people were here from 14,000 to 12,900 years ago.

There was another Nat Geo article around here last week (or the week before) that was similarly poorly written (or maybe it was on some other forum where I post.) It just seems like to me that the folks at that magazine are simply not putting out the effort they once did.

Harte

This is all quite interesting and definitely bears further watching and exploration. Because of the very nature of underwater archaeology though, this will be a slow and ponderous process. I'm very curious to see what is eventually recovered from these caves though.

Mornin, Rune!

Originally posted by RuneSpider
reply to post by Incarnated

 

Ah, but where one skeleton is given a definte range, the other three are kind of up in the air. Leading me to believe they are possibly not of the tsame time frame. And, more evidence of continued occupation than sudden death.

They may be waiting for date confirmation from other labs. Also, dating things that are less than 10,000 years old can be a bit of a problem so they would be trying to find undisturbed areas to do some sampling and date checking from.

As someone mentioned, the archaeology there is a real pain. One wrong flip of the flippers and you've totally disrupted the sediment.

After all, my last understanding was Nibiru cyces onece every 3,600 years.

Yes, that's what the "planet X" people have been proclaiming. They kind of ignore the little detail that our planet has had civilizations that could write for over 7,000 years and nobody has written about such a planet.

(they also ignore the fact that the Sumerians (who kept very detailed astronomical records) never recorded a planet called Nibiru -- or Neptune or Uranus or Pluto or Sedna, etc.)

Now, normally I'd give a little for error, but apparently these folks were able to predict down to the day that Nibiru would return.

Only in modern-day "Nibiru folklore" -- which has sprung up in the past 30 years.

Until the date range is confirmed, it's as likely that they died unrelatedly, years apart.

Two thoughts occurred to me -- it may be a place of sacrifice (these cenotes and wells were commonly used as such). They may also have simply died from hunger and exposure after tumbling into the caves (lots of these caves have openings to the surface and as anyone who lived in places like Austin can tell you, animals and people often get trapped in there. It could also have been a cave shelter where people lived -- in those days, they often buried their dead close to the places they lived (and sometimes they buried them under the "floor" of the cave shelter where people lived.)

I doubt the sacrifice theory on bones over 1,000 years old, since the Aztec religion wasn't around back then. It'll be interesting to see what else they turn up.

Originally posted by Harte

I have a problem with Nat Geo:
This, IMO, is a very sloppy article. How, for example, do stalactites and stalagmites grow in a cave that is already flooded?

Hi Harte,
Well it has been suggested that the stalagmites and stalactites grew there before the cave was flooded. Nat Geo is sloppy?? really?

Originally posted by Harte

Also:

Dubbed Eva de Naharon, or Eve of Naharon, the female skeleton has been dated at 13,600 years old...

...In addition to possibly altering the time line of human settlement in the Americas, the remains may cause experts to rethink where the first Americans came from, González added.

Yet the article itself links to another Nat Geo article about preClovis peoples that states:

The data the researchers collected narrowed the Clovis time frame to between 11,050 and 10,800 radiocarbon years ago. This translates to roughly 13,100 to 12,900 calendar years ago—a duration of 200 years.

IOW, reading the Nat Geo articles would leave one puzzled as to how this find is so groundbreaking. I mean, it predates a new estimate of the tenure of the Clovis people by only around 500 years. Surely no one believes that every single Clovis artifact has been found and dated.

What I mean is that this could just as easily be evidence that the Clovis people were here from 14,000 to 12,900 years ago.

I'm not sure what you are getting at here. Are you talking about this article?

Clovis People Not First Americans, Study Shows

I certainly cannot speak for everyone but I do not believe that all artifacts of our ancient history have been found or ever will be found. As far as the articles go, the evidence is building for people living in the Americas for a lot longer than once believed. Anything else is just speculation and theorization which is what scientist do.

Originally posted by Harte

There was another Nat Geo article around here last week (or the week before) that was similarly poorly written (or maybe it was on some other forum where I post.) It just seems like to me that the folks at that magazine are simply not putting out the effort they once did.

Really? You are saying that National Geographic is not a reputable magazine? Or are you just putting down their writting skills.

Thanks again Harte, It's always a pleasure
Star

Originally posted by Byrd

Yes, that's what the "planet X" people have been proclaiming. They kind of ignore the little detail that our planet has had civilizations that could write for over 7,000 years and nobody has written about such a planet.

(they also ignore the fact that the Sumerians (who kept very detailed astronomical records) never recorded a planet called Nibiru -- or Neptune or Uranus or Pluto or Sedna, etc.)

Hi Byrd,
What about the Mayan? I thought that they had writings of all the planets, or there is a drawing, carving on stone with all the planets? Does this ring a bell to anyone? If not I will dig through my stuff till I find it.

Thanks
Star

Originally posted by Stari

Originally posted by Harte

Really? You are saying that National Geographic is not a reputable magazine? Or are you just putting down their writting skills.

Thanks again Harte, It's always a pleasure

Star

Stari,

No, like most people, I love Nat Geo.

But the article itself says that stalactites and stalagmites grew after the cave was flooded. To my knowledge this is impossible.

Journalistic sloppiness.

Also, the range given for the skeleton actually falls into the Clovis range, part of it, yet Nat Geo makes a sensational claim about it.

I realize they have magazines to sell. Maybe I expect too much from them, but they used to not be so sloppy.

Harte

Originally posted by RuneSpider
And you're right, reading isn't my strong point. After all, my last understanding was Nibiru cyces onece every 3,600 years.
The time scale needed for the tales from Sumner to be able to be recorded. Now, taking aside the fact that supposed only they were the ones affected by this apparent tradegy, the date of 13600 is much more than three times that time scale, roughly putting it a few centures earlier than the supposed time scale for Nibiru.
Now, normally I'd give a little for error, but apparently these folks were able to predict down to the day that Nibiru would return.
Until the date range is confirmed, it's as likely that they died unrelatedly, years apart.

I'm very weak in reading. I use a program called TextAloud. I'm a strong suporter in that program. It can be picked up rather cheaply and opens a full range of infomation to you. You can even have the program export text, such as you might read on a webpage or email into a wav or mp3 audio file.

I don't believe in Nibiru. What I was talking about is the known percsional cycles associated with the understood theory of the spiraling arm of our local galaxy.

You'd now have to do some research to truely understand the limiting "truth" behind such aged dates. The science is not stable nor is it relyable.

reply to post by Harte


I see what you mean Harte,

The polar ice caps melted dramatically 8,000 to 9,000 years ago, causing sea levels to rise hundreds of feet and submerging the burial grounds of the skeletons. Stalactites and stalagmites then grew around the remains, preventing them from being washed out to sea.

They did theorize how the skeletons became lodged in the stalactites and stalagmites. Of course they have no proof of this and if they searched on how those are formed they would have come up with a different theory.

Thanks Harte
Star

Originally posted by Stari

Hi Byrd,
What about the Mayan? I thought that they had writings of all the planets, or there is a drawing, carving on stone with all the planets? Does this ring a bell to anyone? If not I will dig through my stuff till I find it.

Hi Stari -- no, although there are lots of astronomical calculations and references from those cultures, they only recorded the visible planets. Venus was particularly interesting to them -- one of their important deities.
www.ridgenet.net...

They knew nothing of the outer planets in our solar system -- didn't chart them, didn't name them. If you go to scholar.google.com, you can search for Mayan planet names and a number of books will come up. You can look at the pages about their astronomical tables (Dresden codex and others)

Originally posted by Byrd

Originally posted by Stari

Hi Byrd,
What about the Mayan? I thought that they had writings of all the planets, or there is a drawing, carving on stone with all the planets? Does this ring a bell to anyone? If not I will dig through my stuff till I find it.

Hi Stari -- no, although there are lots of astronomical calculations and references from those cultures, they only recorded the visible planets. Venus was particularly interesting to them -- one of their important deities.
www.ridgenet.net...

They knew nothing of the outer planets in our solar system -- didn't chart them, didn't name them. If you go to scholar.google.com, you can search for Mayan planet names and a number of books will come up. You can look at the pages about their astronomical tables (Dresden codex and others)

Byrd,

Nice to see you.

I bet Stari's thinking of the Sitchin version of the Sumerians. You know, that stupid cylinder seal that everybody keeps throwing up there that supposedly shows the solar system but actually shows the Pleaides (IIRC.)

Harte

Originally posted by Stari
National Geographic link

This is quite interesting. I believe that Atlantis was in the Caribbean Sea and for divers to find skeletons that old in a cave underwater around that area is cool to me.

I just had to share... enjoy the article I did

Star

Hello Star
Does not surprise me but it is nice to hear that they have found skeletons estimated to be 13500 years old, I mean with 70% of the planets surface being water, and we’ve only explored a tiny fractions of it. As regards to Atlantis, who knows, there could be whole undiscovered countries down there just waiting for a knock knock.

Peace
Kirky

Harte,
I have heard of Sitchins theories but I have never read his books. I just wanted to know if there was any writings that Byrd new of that had the outter planets in them.

But since you brought up the cylinder Harte, what do you believe it means? Anyones opinions are welcome.

link to some cylinders

I don't think these are the ones you are talking about are they Harte? Do you have the link showing everyone the one you are speaking of?

kirky,
I agree, it is a great find. Most of any artifacts that old will be found in underwater excavations.

I am wondering if I have missed anything here. Have there been any underwater artifacts or skeletons found in the Mediterranean that date over 12,000 years old? or anywhere other than the Americas? Excluding of course the Yonaguni underwater ruins

Star

Interesting article, but I think it was because of the end of the last ice age that this was found underwater. I personally think that to find Atlantis, we need to look in Antartica. It wasn't alway a frozen wasteland.

reply to post by Incarnated


Ok, while I see what you mean, keep in mind that dating is actually fairly accurate, especially since more than one method of dating is used.

reply to post by JaxonRoberts


Antartica has been frozen for millions of years but Atlantis was only sunk 12,000 years give or take a few hundred years or so

Star