Originally posted by Brighter
After this, they descended 4,000 feet, turned 12 degrees to the left and then made a 360 degree right turn, all during which this object followed them
in formation. A cloud can't do that. ...
Could you also touch on how it's possible for a cloud to follow - in formation - a 747 through a 360 degree turn?
I don't know why people keep propagating this myth, but it's a myth. They lost sight of the object and there's no confirmation at all it
followed them around the turn. A lot of people say that, but there's simply no evidence for it. The object was there, they made the turn, and after
the turn it was right where it was before the 360 turn, so the object didn't have to move to do that, it only had to stay where it was. I'm talking
about the object they made the course change to avoid flying toward.
Here is ground radar reporting the primary return (probably the cloud, the same one the captain observed) in front of JAL1628:
5:26:03 AARTCC I'm picking up a primary approximately 50 miles southeast. But it's right in
front of the (JAL1628). (4)
See that, IN FRONT
, not following.
5:26:13 ROCC OK. I've got him about....
5:26:15 AARTCC Eight miles in front of the (JAL1628) he's got traffic at the same altitude
5:26:18 ROCC OK. I've got him about his, ah, oh, it looks like about, ah, 10 o'clock at about
that range, yes.
Again this is in front. Here is the course change request:
5:30:23 JAL1628 Request, ah, deviate, ah, ah, from, ah, object, ah, request heading two four
5:30:52 AARTCC JAL1628 Roger. Fly heading two four zero. Jal1628 heavy, deviations approved
as necessary for traffic.
(Note: since the controller knew that there were no other known aircraft in the sky it was
OK for JAL1628 to go anywhere it wanted to avoid "traffic")
5:30:49 JAL1628 It's, ah, quite big...
5:30:52 AARTCC JAL1628 heavy, you're still broken. Say again.
5:30:56 JAL1628 It's, ah, very quite big, ah, plane.
I've noted this time on my map, and this quote. It's when he's close to the cloud, and has
made this course change to avoid it.
So here's what happened: They were tracking visually and by radar the smaller lighted objects in front of them.
According to the flight
engineer, they were two different things. He didn't think the radar reflection was the same as the lights they were seeing.
FLIGHT engineer Tsukuba recalled seeing on the radar screen at "about 10 miles" a "green dot like, not exactly a dot. It was not a dot but stream
like", i.e., elongated. He did "not think it (the radar target) was the same lights as the one (sic) I saw in front of us."
There is no way these were clouds or airport lights. Terauchi described the lights in front of them as being at different times at the same
altitude (35,000 ft) as their 747 and as even being at a higher altitude as their plane. These objects were also picked up on military radar that
tracks objects according to altitude, and I'm pretty sure they weren't aiming their radar at the ground. Furthermore, Terauchi picked up those same
objects on his on-board radar that he made sure to aim straight ahead with no depression angle. As the objects approached the 747 at one point, they
lit up the interior of the cabin and Terauchi could feel the heat from them on his face. Airport lights on the ground don't do that.
said, I'm pretty sure the thing that had all the properties of a cloud was probably a cloud. Regarding the lights, that's true that airport lights
wouldn't heat up the captains face. So if they actually did that, then it wasn't airport lights, I admit that. However, I can't rule out the
possibility that the captain got excited and felt flush when he saw something surprising...this does have the sensation of warming your face, and it's
not just mental, it's physical...you can see extra blood flowing in the face when this happens and it can make the cheeks red.
If this is what happened, then the captain really could have felt heat in his face, though the heat would be coming from expanded capillaries and
extra blood flow. Is that what happened? Who knows? It might seem like a bit of a stretch, but the other evidence that the lights look like airport
lights is too coincidental to just dismiss, so anyone wanting to keep an open mind should at least consider the possibility. And I'm going by the
captain's own sketch of the lights (followed by some airport lights, slightly distorted, for comparison):
Maybe it wasn't airport lights. But I'm not ready to rule out that possibility, if there's a possibility the heat the captain felt could have been
from being flush with excitement.
Any emotion that is a form of 'excitement' can result in flushing in the face. This includes embarrassment yes, but it also encompasses anger,
fear, lust or anything else that gets our 'blood pumping'. That's precisely what our blood is doing in these situations you see – pumping – as a
result of the 'fight or flight' response our body secretes adrenaline resulting in a faster and more powerful heartbeat as well as a dilation of the
blood vessels. This means that there is more pressure in your veins which are now also carrying more blood.
This is a real physiological effect,
and you can even see the extra blood flow:
Five minutes later, Terauchi was able to see that object that had been flying behind them the entire time.
See Terauchi's sketch above.
It shows the object in front of the plane. It's in the lower left corner of the radar display. It's obviously not behind them at this point. So it
wasn't flying behind them the entire time.
Your references to the ground radar getting other targets are interesting, but when you look at the comments about that, I suspect they would have
never even mentioned the other, spurious ground radar hits had the captain not seen something...because the ground radar never got a good track
(except for the cloud). So it's really a stretch to say that the ground radar on targets other than the cloud was reliable:
AT 5:51:32, after the planes had passed one another, the UA plane reported being able to
see the JAL plane silhouetted against the sky. The UA captain could see the contrail as well as
the jet but nothing else. The controller responded, “We got just a few primary hits on the
target and then, ah, we really haven’t got a good track on him, ever, “ meaning that the radar
never showed a continuous track (a continuous series of “blips”) of primary-only radar targets
associated with the unusual “traffic.”
Such sporadic hits aren't really good evidence of anything, and the other plane they asked to look for
the object where those sporadic returns were didn't see anything:
DURING the next several minutes TOTEM viewed the JAL plane but couldn’t see any other
So I think there's some basis to confirm the spurious signals were just that, spurious, since the other aircraft couldn't see anything
but the JAL flight.
reply to post by Kandinsky
Thanks Kandinsky, I appreciate that. I don't make it to the UFO threads much lately, but it brings back nostalgia for me too!
23-2-2013 by Arbitrageur because: clarification