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British soldier refused access to hotel cause hes a soldier.

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posted on Sep, 5 2008 @ 06:36 PM
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post removed because the user has no concept of manners

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posted on Sep, 5 2008 @ 06:46 PM
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Originally posted by wytworm

Originally posted by Myrdyn
Have to admit, I'm a little baffled by this rambling political debate. Soldiers have absolutely no say whatsoever in the political agenda of their deployment. It would be a very dangerous situation indeed if this were the case.


There is an absolute universal moral imperative that all humans are a part of whether or not they admit it or take part in it. Your first allegiance is to that morality, it is internally sourced, not externally imposed and the military is its servant, not the master.

Next?

[edit on 5-9-2008 by wytworm]


I don't really want to debate 'off topic', but I disagree entirely with what I think you're trying to say.

First of all.. How can there be an 'absolute universal moral imperative'?

Secondly.. I served as a British soldier for 22 years and was never required to perform an immoral act.. though I may have prevented many.

Finally.. My morality is absolutely no business of yours to question.



posted on Sep, 5 2008 @ 06:48 PM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Sep, 5 2008 @ 08:42 PM
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reply to post by Myrdyn
 



I don't really want to debate 'off topic', but I disagree entirely with what I think you're trying to say.

First of all.. How can there be an 'absolute universal moral imperative'?


How can there not be?



Secondly.. I served as a British soldier for 22 years and was never required to perform an immoral act.. though I may have prevented many.


I have been a soldier for 23 years and all my acts were immoral as were all those of my colleagues. -- This to illustrate why the argument of authority is a bad choice. One reason anyhow, there are others.



Finally.. My morality is absolutely no business of yours to question.


Says who? That in and of itself is an immoral statement. Neatly done. Was it intentional?



posted on Sep, 5 2008 @ 09:27 PM
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Please remember the Armed Forces are not just there for defence of the realm, they are also there to enact the foreign policy of the UK Government, that was elected by the very people who are complaining about the war. Don't take it out on the individual soldier for doing his job. By doing so, and calling them murderers you have not only offended me and my friends who are still serving, but also those that have served in various other conflicts throughout the world.

You seem to forget the humanitarian work that the Armed Forces carry out... its not all just about killing. I hope you never need the services of the RAF SAR Squadrons when walking in the hills or out at sea, or the assistance of the Army should your village flood. If you do, please turn them away and refuse the help.

Here's a good poem, attributed to an unknown author from WW2:

FINAL INSPECTION

The soldier stood and faced his God
Which must always come to pass
He hoped his shoes were shining
Just as brightly as his brass

"Step forward now you soldier,
How shall I deal with you?
Have you always turned the other cheek,
And to my church have you been true?"

The soldier squared his shoulders and said,
"No Lord, I guess I ain't,
Because those of us who carry guns,
Can't always be saints

"I've had to work most Sundays
And at times my talk was tough
And sometimes I've been violent
Because the streets were awfully rough"

But I never took a penny,
That wasn't mine to keep
Though I worked a lot of overtime
When the bills just got to steep,

And I never passed a cry for help
Although, at times I shook with fear
And sometimes, God forgive
I've wept unmanly tears

I know I don't deserve a place
Among the people here
That never wanted me around
Except to calm there fears

If you have a place for me here O' Lord
It needn't be so grand
I've never expected, or had so much
But if you don't I'll understand"

There was a silence all around the throne
Where the Saints had often trod
As this soldier waited quietly
For the judgement from his God

"Step forward now you soldier,
You've borne your burdens well
Walk peacefully on Heaven's streets,
You've done your time in Hell"

Also check out "Tommy" by Rudyard Kiplin, as true today as it was back then.

I wish I could live in the wishy washy world of some posters where the military aren't needed to do anything more than stand around looking pretty in uniform...

Luckily the hotel in question has seen sense, apologised, and disciplined the employee concerned. Hopefully the publicity of this case will prevent others from making such misguided decisions when presented with a MOD90... and who knows, it might make more companies offer discounts for good PR



posted on Sep, 5 2008 @ 10:56 PM
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reply to post by StellarX
 


u'r assuming that all the soldiers there are criminals.. there are valid reasons to be in afganistan.. the taliban for instance.. whom i believe are helping terrorist.. and are in fact terrorists themselves..so whos really the criminal here.. and as far as iraq.. well the reasoning behind going there is wrong but thereinlies a delima.. sadam murdered hundreds of thousands. sometimes entire villages.. he, the taliban and the extremist who do these things are the real criminals... and there is no reasoning with them.. sometimes you have to stand and fight...



posted on Sep, 5 2008 @ 11:00 PM
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reply to post by ro01xc08
 


that was so awsome.. i've heard it before,quite often as most of my aunts and uncles were all in the marines...



posted on Sep, 5 2008 @ 11:10 PM
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reply to post by wytworm
 


sounds like u have issues... like you think you are moralily superior.. with the one extra year makes your opinion 100% right.. however this thread was about what the hotel manager did to the soldier.. which was wrong no matter how you cut it..



posted on Sep, 5 2008 @ 11:15 PM
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reply to post by wytworm
 


well yours is definatly in question.. you really came across as childish with the i had a year longer so i know better than you.. just because this ( may) have been the case for you.. doesnt make it universal.. besides this thread was about what a hotel employee did to a customer just because he had a millitary id..



posted on Sep, 5 2008 @ 11:35 PM
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Originally posted by Anonymous ATS

Why was he in uniform/flashing ID? why not normal clothes, why rile the population by walking about in combats?


He wasn't in uniform he was in civvies. He had a broken arm in plaster which he broke whilst under fire in Afghanistan. He was here to help arrange the funeral for a friend who was killed in action. He ended up sleeping in his car.

And for the record why shouldn't military personnel walk around in uniform?

Bad form Anonymous!



[edit on 6/9/08 by Insomniac]



posted on Sep, 5 2008 @ 11:43 PM
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A strange world, when civil disobedience, which is the ultimate form of acting out your beliefs, despite the danger that may occur, is chastised as being immoral and the person so vilified for it. We, here in our great "FREE" country of america, have many doctors who refuse to perform abortions due to personal beliefs, we have people who refuse to treat or serve people for some reason or other in the news all the time. Yes, they may be misguided, but at least these people are standing up for their beliefs, so they, standing alone against the criticism of the masses, are the great pillars (and perhaps the last true) of democracy, in a world of growing fascism. Just like to point out that I spent 12 years in 2 different armed forces, and i agree with most of what stellar said....and also, as he said, spitting on a soldier is no different from spitting on any other person (while just as disrespectful and abhorrent) as most soldiers i knew couldnt really fight their way out of a cardboard box without their toys.



posted on Sep, 5 2008 @ 11:54 PM
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Is there such a thing as a "soldier card"?

I know when Oprah said something similar to this happened to her and the store simply said it was a "mistake" that everyone accepted the stores excuse and blamed Oprah for being racially sensitive. Playing the "race card".

Maybe this was actually a mistake too and the young man was being overly sensitive to being discriinated against because he is a soldier.

After all discrimination doesn't exist anymore from what I hear around these parts.

- Lee



posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 05:08 AM
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Originally posted by scorand
reply to post by wytworm
 


well yours is definatly in question.. you really came across as childish with the i had a year longer so i know better than you.. just because this ( may) have been the case for you.. doesnt make it universal.. besides this thread was about what a hotel employee did to a customer just because he had a millitary id..


You missed the point. It was to illustrate how childish you came across.



posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 06:34 AM
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reply to post by budski
 


That Act does not apply in this case. It is saying "for the purposes of this Act to establish liability for damages only you CAN be considered to be a hotel (as opposed to some other establishment; boarding house/let rooms/whatever), IF you do 'this'". Which is NOT the same as saying "if you are a hotel you MUST do 'this'".



posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 06:51 AM
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Originally posted by ...and justice for some
This kinda trash really p***es me off. I just recently got out of the USMC so I'm speaking from experience when I say you'd be surprised to see just how often this kinda stuff happens.


I too am surprised but rather that it doesn't happen more often and not due to any misunderstandings.


Like not being able to buy a pack of smokes cause you pull out your military id, or not being able to get to work cause so group of jackasses are protesting out side of your base.


I agree that there is no point into not smoking when they shoot you up toxic vaccinations. As for the not being able to get to work why don't you just get a real job; i understand that it's hard to do so in the US but that's hardly a excuse to make your problems the worlds problem.


Do you know how horrible it feels to walk down the street in your uniform and get called a baby killer by some punk who's willing to let you die to keep them free but wouldn't give you the time of day if you needed help?


Well i doubt that 'punk' voted for you to go defend him so lets not attack straw men, Iraqi's and Afghans all in the space of five years. How are you helping to keep him 'free' by getting yourself within reach of those Iraqi's ( who may not be so forgiving) your government visited genocidal sanctions on for a decade? Isn't that far stupider than anything the 'punk' said? Isn't it doubly so because Iraqi's never attacked or threatened to attack the United States of America?


We may not be in the middle east for the right reasons but thats no excuse to treat another human being with such disrespect especially if he's a service man.


Well 'we' aren't in the middle east and the American public never wanted to be in the Middle east. The question should be why YOU are/were in the middle east despite the wishes of your fellow American citizens!

Stellar



posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 04:58 PM
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reply to post by wytworm
 


No really, you've missed it. Go back and reread.



posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 05:12 PM
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Originally posted by jerico65
Wrong. The "refusing an illegal order" is for things like shooting kids, your own troops, etc. You can't say, "I don't want to fight this war because it's illegal."


Yes, you can as this war is clearly aggressive and against international law.

40 000 Americans managed to do just that in 1941 so don't give me this nonsense that you can't 'say no'. American citizens are far better protected than they were then and there is most certainly no threat from Iraq to allow the accusation that your not serving your country.


And refusing the deployment order is called, "Missed movement". You go to jail.


Then you go to jail, so what? Would you rather be shot at or blown up in by fighting a war that is not only illegal but against all forms of common sense and human decency?


And before you bring up Conscientious Objector status, there are alot of things that you have to do prior. You can be in the military as a CO, but you have to have that applied to you PRIOR to deploying. You just can't file for it the afternoon you get an order to deploy.

"Beliefs which qualify a registrant for conscientious objector status may be religious in nature, but don't have to be. Beliefs may be moral or ethical; however, a man's reasons for not wanting to participate in a war must not be based on politics, expediency, or self-interest. In general, the man's lifestyle prior to making his claim must reflect his current claims."

www.sss.gov...


This is not a question of being a CO but a question of international law which the US is a signature country of. When a nation signs these agreements they become United States law as well and any citizen who transgresses it is in fact open to prosecution in his own country or elsewhere. This does not even have to get to morality as it's a very simple question of LAW.


And in 1971, the Supreme Court said you can't apply for CO status simply because you were against a specific war.


And we all know that the Supreme Court can override international law at will and appoint presidents that were not elected by the citizens of the United States of America.


It's not needed for advice, but CYA. That way, the soldier can't be punished for failure to follow the order.


So soldiers receive these types of orders in the United States armed forces? You need legal protections for your soldiers to prevent them from having to commit such outrages but according to you they can't refuse to go to war? Talk about a twisted view of law and justice in general...

Stellar



posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 06:09 PM
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Originally posted by StellarX
Yes, you can as this war is clearly aggressive and against international law.

40 000 Americans managed to do just that in 1941 so don't give me this nonsense that you can't 'say no'. American citizens are far better protected than they were then and there is most certainly no threat from Iraq to allow the accusation that your not serving your country.



Wrong again. You're having a hard time reading what I type. I'll try to make it simple.

If you're a soldier, and you decide on your own that the war is illegal and tell the commanding officer that you're not going to go, you will be thrown into jail. Simple.

40,000 Americans did what in 1941? Resist the draft? Not sure what you're referring to.


Originally posted by StellarX
Then you go to jail, so what? Would you rather be shot at or blown up in by fighting a war that is not only illegal but against all forms of common sense and human decency?


You've obviously haven't been to a military prison before.




Originally posted by StellarX
This is not a question of being a CO but a question of international law which the US is a signature country of. When a nation signs these agreements they become United States law as well and any citizen who transgresses it is in fact open to prosecution in his own country or elsewhere. This does not even have to get to morality as it's a very simple question of LAW.


It does pertain to being a CO. We have a volunteer military; if you don't want to fight, but to serve, you need to bring that up prior to any sort of conflict. You just can't play that card whenever you decide to.


Originally posted by StellarX
And we all know that the Supreme Court can override international law at will and appoint presidents that were not elected by the citizens of the United States of America.


Take the "Bush stole the election" bullcrap to another thread.

Supreme Court made the rules for being classified as a CO. If someone doesn't like it, they can file a complaint, etc.


Originally posted by StellarX
So soldiers receive these types of orders in the United States armed forces? You need legal protections for your soldiers to prevent them from having to commit such outrages but according to you they can't refuse to go to war? Talk about a twisted view of law and justice in general...


Legal protection? The protection is for the soldier in case he come up against something like that. It's called, "planning ahead".


And in 26+ years of being in the military, I've never been given an illegal order, never heard one given to another troop, and never gave one myself.

If a guy doesn't want to go to war, just don't enlist. No one is twisting his arm.



posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 06:18 PM
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reply to post by pexx421
 


but this employee did this despite hotel policy..the man was not in violation of that policy this was out and out discrimination because he was millitary



posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 06:24 PM
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reply to post by wytworm
 


first off that post wasnt directed to me it was to myrdyn. second it backfired .. u made yourself look that way



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