The Evidence For Jesus' Existence Is Nothing But Hearsay

Originally posted by jon1
I have to laugh at this thread. You people are all looking at the subject of Jesus through very narrow blinkers. Its a very sad attempt to debunk the existance of Jesus.


Blinkers or a microscope ? when we consistantly fail to find absolute evidence, its prudnt to stop looking or look harder, please remember the burden of proof is upon you. Non beleivers aren't making any claims they just want you to stop trying to dictate how they live, according to your religious beliefs.

It is obvious that you know nothing of the spiritual aspect of Jesus today and the way he is very much a part of peoples lives.

No one is claiming to know anything about spiritualism, we have not found solid physical evidence yet. Lets leave the paranormal till later please.

Yes, to you he is a figment of our imagination but to the people who have a relationship with him these sort of threads are like listening to a group of school children trying to explain the big bang. They have no concept of the reality of the subject.

My child had an imaginary friend and I for one admit loud and clear that I had no concept of the relationship he had with his imaginary friend.

Anyway, carry on. I need a little light entertainment sometimes.

It would appear that you find other peoples observation that your religious beliefs were founded on , genocide , infanticide, rape , torture , slavery, bigotry, persecution and mysogani highly amusing.


All the discussion is really about the fact that you would have us believe and follow your religion, we ask notihing more than solid proof not faith or hearsay or combinations of both.

Didn't Pilate need at least some solid proof?

Interestingly enough Pilate didnt seem to notice that he had had cruicfied a living god that could raise the dead , walk on water . turn water into wine , and make blind people see.

He must have been off playing golf or out trying to look impressive cutting down a large tree, when all that happened not to have noticed.

Originally posted by whatsup
reply to post by 19DCW71

 

Simple, because almost everyone who follows Jesus takes the bible literally and this results in the compulsion to expect everyone else to follow Jesus.[edit on 4-9-2008 by whatsup]

This honestly is the most uncomprehensible statement I have heard of. As if you literally went out and took a survey on EVERYONE who follows Jesus and know whether "almost everyone" expects you to also. I personally never force my views on anyone and could personally care if anyone believes or accepts. There's a fine line between spirituality and fanatacism.

The Christian are trying to shove all this down the throats of everyone (and also to influence the government to do likewise in the US). Get off everyone's backs with YOUR convictions and you won't draw so much attention and scrutiny to this subject!

If we take a survey I'm sure you'll find I was never on anyones back w/MY convictions. drawing attention and scrutiny to this subject.If you read my posts it's just the opposite. I said I respect peoples decisions and beliefs even though I may not agree w/them all. The exact opposite is true of you just from your words. Your're basically condeming me for something I never did.

If you want to share your beliefs and thoughts in a non condemning and unprejudiced manner, that is something all together different (but the bible has a "believe or die" mandate so that ain't gonna happen).

If anything is being forced on anyone, it's the reverse. EVERY single religion other than Christianity has the privelages of this country. Christianity is just like Americans and Caucasians. We have been raped of our rights by the garbage that flees to this country and it's Ideals they claim to hate, yet they are fighting for their rights here. FORCING it down my throat. As far as a do or die attitude. Ever read the Torah, or the Quran? Get your facts straight and stop misinterpreting my posts.





[edit on 4-9-2008 by 19DCW71]

Originally posted by sdrawkcabII

You mean to tell me all the other great historical events that happened that were recorded around the same time they happened, were recorded because the people of those times had word processors...but in Jesus' times, they did not?

It does not matter the medium my friend, a man of Jesus' magnitude and his miracles and popularity should not(by historical and technological advancements) be subject to time. When great things happen...they are recorded nearly immediately, at least not decades afterward...which says a lot. And this has been happening since before Jesus' days...when word processors obviously existed.

The time during which Jesus existed is considered 'prehistory' in which writing took the shape of symbols, or proto-writing. There were no sophisticated means of recording anything save for by mouth.

So the argument that begs the question of why hadn't anyone written down the accounts of Jesus' life during his existence, is because a refined system of writing did not exist.

The argument should be more focused on the validity of such oral traditions that were then translated (who knows how many times) and subsequently recorded when a more sophisticated writing system had evolved.

The Vatican has a Roman record of Christ, including his description, for the crucifixion. It states he had nut-brown hair, and was 15 hands high.

Oh brother...

What about the tomb found in Jerusalem two years ago that says here lies .... brother of Jesus of Nazareth? Is that not enough proof for you?

Originally posted by jon1
I have to laugh at this thread. You people are all looking at the subject of Jesus through very narrow blinkers. Its a very sad attempt to debunk the existance of Jesus.

It is obvious that you know nothing of the spiritual aspect of Jesus today and the way he is very much a part of peoples lives.

Yes, to you he is a figment of our imagination but to the people who have a relationship with him these sort of threads are like listening to a group of school children trying to explain the big bang. They have no concept of the reality of the subject.

Anyway, carry on. I need a little light entertainment sometimes.

Theres really nothing to look through just discussing a mythological being that only exist in the minds of some and not others.

Jesus brothers existed...

Read here:

www.time.com...

If they existed, so did he..

Originally posted by dave420
reply to post by 19DCW71

 

If you think Christianity is nothing but rainbows and unicorn farts, your knowledge of history is abominable.

I think people are just narked that all these Christians are running around saying, with incredible certainty, that Jesus was real and the son of god. You'd be pretty narked to if those who ran your communities and country were saying, with incredible certainty, that Santa Claus exists, and that they are doing his bidding.

Some people just don't put up with baseless assertions presented as truth. And they shouldn't. Why should we waste our brains? If you can't figure out it's a good idea to be nice to people without first reading it in a book, then there's something wrong with you. Good people don't need books to tell them how to be good. Only bad people do, and even then they're not actually good, but only paying lip-service to being good.

Santa Claus doesn't exist???There's people in this world calling for the murders of innocent civilians because of the use of the word Muhammed, in a free modern world, yet you want to talk about modern day Christians. These people are still literally living in the biblical stone age fighting a crusade.War on terror ring any bells. Or do the countless numbers of American casualties mean nothing to you.

I know, we're all animals and deserve this as if I or the CHRISTIANS are the ons who made the decision fir America. I never bombed or forced my western views on anyone. Everyone hates us.GREAT. GTFO of america and stop coming here if you hate our way of life. As far as I'm concerned, this is an invasion and declaration of war on their behaalf.Nobody forces them to come here yet they just don't stop.

I know history and there's horrible things done by all people of all races and religions and there always will be. It's a power struggle. At least a majority (not all) of us have become civil over the centuries.

And if your implying or misunderstood my post your dead wrong. I in no way need a book to teach me how to behave. I like you read books to learn and broaden my horizon though. I take what's useful and dump the rest. I was raised by good parents in a home w/love. This is where the values start my friend. If people use Jesus to raise their families and their kids turn out good, yo should be happy. That's one less phsyco you have to worry about murdering ypu or your loved ones. REMEMBER, there are a hell of a lot worse teachings being brainwashed into you daily by television, radio and the internet.

Use a truth table:

1 Jesus exists, you believe and you die.
A. You go to Heaven.
2. Jesus exists, you don't believe and you die.
A. You go to hell.
3. Jesus didn't exist, you don't believe and you die.
A. You take a dirt nap for eternity.
4. Jesus didn't exist, you do believe and you die.
A. You take a dirt nap for eternity.

So the truth is, for those of us who believe, we have a chance at eternal life and we lose nothing. For those who don't... You gain nothing at all no matter what. Which would you rather be?

reply to post by Parabolic


What, the Romans had no writing? That's ludicrous. Not only did they have writing, they had books! I know, shocking!

carlos.emory.edu...

carlos.emory.edu...

Originally posted by dariousg

Originally posted by mhc_70
So I could logically assertain that you think that the evidence for the existence of all historical figures over 100 years ago is just hearsay.

Thats deep.

Not at all what the OP is saying or what the article is saying. They are simply saying that all historical figures over 100 years ago were documented with 'paper' written by 'eye witnesses' and verifiable. His argument about Jesus (which I am neither supporting nor refuting) is simply that there is not one single document in existence that can be verified as written by an eye witness to the life and death of Jesus. And even more importantly his resurrection. Not one single document written by an eye witness or verified by any form of government documentation.

That's what he is saying. Your immediate and short sighted response shows that you are simply replying with your heart and faith instead of with reason and logic. It's tough to do so when your faith is challenged. I went through this myself my friend.

You have a valid point, I should have used a emoticon but none of them really portray hyperbole.

First I would be interested to know how many other historical figures existence is based on hearsay? Hearsay is a legal term and not as cut and dry as the OP seems to think and is rarely, if ever, used in science as an objection to evidence. If the author really believes his position, then he must also believe that our history books need editing to reflect what he should be saying..."Many ancient peoples existence is based on hearsay, although it is widely accepted as fact". But, the simple reason he has singled out Jesus is a fact that poses an interesting evidence by itself, not to mention the multitudes of this kind of drivel out there today.

As an ealier poster pointed out, why not Mohammed, Islams founder? There is much less evidence for his existence and his religion is causing alot more turmoil today.

According to Federal Law hearsay has 24 exceptions.

Couple examples...

Statements in ancient documents. Statements in a document in existence twenty years or more the authenticity of which is established.

Records of regularly conducted activity. A memorandum, report, record, or data compilation, in any form, of acts, events, conditions, opinions, or diagnoses, made at or near the time by, or from information transmitted by, a person with knowledge, if kept in the course of a regularly conducted business activity, and if it was the regular practice of that business activity to make the memorandum, report, record or data compilation, all as shown by the testimony of the custodian or other qualified witness, or by certification that complies with Rule 902(11), Rule 902(12), or a statute permitting certification, unless the source of information or the method or circumstances of preparation indicate lack of trustworthiness. The term "business" as used in this paragraph includes business, institution, association, profession, occupation, and calling of every kind, whether or not conducted for profit.

Market reports, commercial publications. Market quotations, tabulations, lists, directories, or other published compilations, generally used and relied upon by the public or by persons in particular occupations.


Using the OP authors' method invalidates much of the rest of history as we know it today.

Using the "all" in my original statement made it hyperbole.

Using "some" does make it more logical.

To deny he was a real man that walked the Earth is denying objective reasoning and thats not hyperbole.

Originally posted by TheComte
reply to post by Parabolic

 

What, the Romans had no writing? That's ludicrous. Not only did they have writing, they had books! I know, shocking!

carlos.emory.edu...

carlos.emory.edu...

Where in my post did I write that: the Romans had no writing?

Its immaterial, as a refined system of writing came much after Jesus' death.

Originally posted by Parabolic

Originally posted by TheComte
reply to post by Parabolic

 

What, the Romans had no writing? That's ludicrous. Not only did they have writing, they had books! I know, shocking!

carlos.emory.edu...

carlos.emory.edu...

Where in my post did I write that: the Romans had no writing?

Its immaterial, as a refined system of writing came much after Jesus' death.

The Romans did not like Jesus or his followers, they did everything they could to kill them and destroy any and everything associated with Jesus, including any writings of Jesus. Considering the time period, the length of the Roman conquest against his Jesus' followers it is really amazing that any evidence survived.

reply to post by Parabolic


Well then what prevented them from using their 'unrefined system of writing' to write down anything about Jesus? Answer: nothing.

Whatever had been written was officially erased as per Damnatio memoriae

Damnatio memoriae is the Latin phrase literally meaning "damnation of memory", in the sense of removed from the remembrance. It was a form of dishonor that could be passed by the Roman Senate upon traitors or others who brought discredit to the Roman State.

Why? Because Jesus, as a political activist, was a threat to Roman hegemony in Judea.

As well, about the Resurrection. It's like we do today for the worst murderers, Nazi war criminals, etc. We make sure there can be no burial place or pilgrimage site for the followers. The Romans took the body and disposed of it somewhere unknown.



[edit on 4-9-2008 by TheComte]

[edit on 4-9-2008 by TheComte]

[edit on 4-9-2008 by TheComte]

This is found in the Greek Acts of Peter and Paul and as an appendix to the Gospel of Nicodemus in Latin. The translation is from M. R. James as given in Quasten's Patrology, vol. 1, p. 117.

Pontius Pilate unto Claudius, greeting.

There befell of late a matter which I myself brought to light (or, made trial of): for the Jews through envy have punished themselves and their posterity with fearful judgements of their own fault; for whereas their fathers had promises (al. had announced unto them) that their God would send them out of heaven his holy one who should of right be called their king, and did promise that he would send him upon earth by a virgin; he then (or this God of the Hebrews, then) came when I was governor of Judea, and they beheld him enlightening the blind, cleansing lepers, healing the palsied, driving devils out of men, raising the dead, rebuking the winds, walking upon the waves of the sea dry-shod, and doing many other wonders, and all the people of the Jews calling him the Son of God: the chief priests therefore, moved with envy against him, took him and delivered him unto me and brought against him one false accusation after another, saying that he was a sorcerer and did things contrary to law.

But I, believing that these things were so, having scourged him, delivered him unto their will: and they crucified him, and when he was buried they set guards upon him. But while my soldiers watched him he rose again on the third day: yet so much was the malice of the Jews kindled that they gave money to the soldiers, saying: Say ye that his disciples stole away his body. But they, though they took the money, were not able to keep silence concerning that which had come to pass, for they also have testified that they saw him arisen and that they received money from the Jews. And these things have I reported (unto thy mightiness) for this cause, lest some other should lie unto thee (Lat. lest any lie otherwise) and though shouldest deem right to believe the false tales of the Jews.

Originally posted by TheComte
reply to post by Parabolic

 

Well then what prevented them from using their 'unrefined system of writing' to write down anything about Jesus? Answer: nothing.

Whatever had been written was officially erased as per Damnatio memoriae

Damnatio memoriae is the Latin phrase literally meaning "damnation of memory", in the sense of removed from the remembrance. It was a form of dishonor that could be passed by the Roman Senate upon traitors or others who brought discredit to the Roman State.

Why? Because Jesus, as a political activist, was a threat to Roman hegemony in Judea.

As well, about the Resurrection. It's like we do today for the worst murderers, Nazi war criminals, etc. We make sure there can be no burial place or pilgrimage site for the followers. The Romans took the body and disposed of it somewhere unknown.

I'm sure what you are saying is yet another argument for why there are scant records of Jesus' existance (I'm not dissagreeing with you). In my original post I was criticizing the argument about why no one bothered to write about him during the time he was alive. The most obvious was simply that there was no 'real' system of writing. This doesn't dissqualify what you are saying. There can be multiple reasons for this.

I have read the Bible, both testaments, more than once, and studied it a little. As I recall, there are several different places where the Bible clearly states that Jesus told people that his real disciples/followers would be able to do everything he could do with just a little faith.

The first person I meet who can do even some of the things that Jesus could do (such as heal the sick, walk on water, turn water to wine, restore sight to the blind, etc.), I will believe, and I will accept his God and his Messiah.

According to the words of their own holy book, anyone who can not do any of these things is not a true disciple/follower of Christ, or does not have faith.

Or, the Bible isn't the true word of God.

Which is it?


[edit on 4-9-2008 by Heike]

Originally posted by dave420
reply to post by AshleyD

 

I want to know the truth - and the only way one can know the truth is to know through evidence. Feeling all goose-bumpy in church or when you think of jesus isn't evidence - it's personal experience, which is as flawed as "evidence" can get.

Christians don't want to know the truth, because if the truth involves them being wrong, they don't want anything to do with it. They won't even consider that as a possibility. Because they can't - there is no evidence to suggest they are right. Rational people do want to know the truth, as nothing they hold dearly is immune to being rationalised away. THAT is knowledge. Thinking some bronze-age farmers had everything pegged is the exact opposite - it's embracing ignorance.

But whatever gets you through the night, I suppose.

Hmmmm.

First paragraph - straw-man argument proposing that Christians basis for faith is feeling 'goose bumpy'.

Second paragraph - sweeping generalities about Christians.

Third paragraph - demeaning closing statement.

Nice!

Well, I doubt that you will take a look, but seeing as how you said that you wanted to know the truth, you might want to check this out:
www.thedevineevidence.com..." target="_blank" class="postlink">Discussion of historocity of Christ

Eric

Originally posted by Parabolic
The most obvious was simply that there was no 'real' system of writing.

Care to explain to me in a U2U why you think the Romans did not have a real system of writing.

Originally posted by GrndLkNatv
Use a truth table:

1 Jesus exists, you believe and you die.
A. You go to Heaven.
2. Jesus exists, you don't believe and you die.
A. You go to hell.
3. Jesus didn't exist, you don't believe and you die.
A. You take a dirt nap for eternity.
4. Jesus didn't exist, you do believe and you die.
A. You take a dirt nap for eternity.

So the truth is, for those of us who believe, we have a chance at eternal life and we lose nothing. For those who don't... You gain nothing at all no matter what. Which would you rather be?

Aha! So you are protected if your god is correct. But what about the other 3000 gods? What if one of them is correct instead? I don't much like your odds. You have a 1/3000 chance to be right, given a god does exist. However, given science, your chances are more like 1/999999999999999999999999999999999. Sorry mate, I'll stick with being an atheist.