The Evidence For Jesus' Existence Is Nothing But Hearsay

I'm coming in here very late, and have not read every comment.

My understanding, from those who have tackled the subject with some objectivity, is that there is a probability of a historical figure, maybe named Yeshua, who had a brother James, and they were political radicals of their day.

The Gospels were written sometime in the 2nd Century AD, as first hand accounts. Historical Roman records of the time, in the hands of monks, were edited and retrofitted to conform to their interpretations. Stylist analysis demonstrates the writing of Josephus have later insertions acknowledging Yeshua as venerated in his time.

The historical Yeshua was likely crucified for dissidence, the standard form of Roman execution. The structure on which this was done was more T-shaped and not a cross, by the way.

For many in the late days of the Roman Empire, an increasingly influential mystical Gnosticism evolved towards what would eventually become Christianity. A longstanding Greek concept of "Christos" or saviour, was imposed on the otherwise minor Judean provincial historical figure, imbuing him with mythical qualities and elevating his role to a Son of God sent to redirect mankind towards a religious understanding the early proto-Christians were embracing.


Mike F

reply to post by mmiichael


Seems pretty well-rounded paraphrase to me.

Has anyone heard of revisionist history??? I am amazed at all who have posted their evidence.... you blindly accept these written "Facts" from past
Empires that have destroyed various writings and monuments of rival leaders. yet you continue to reject the Bible??? as i have stated before figures in our(USA) history.... Christopher Columbus.... men who signed the Declaration of Independence... can only be "proven" through Historical Writings.... No photos or video of Columbus stepping on the shores of the new world.... No Eye Witnesses to the signing of the Declaration of Independence...So i think all the proof in the world would not change anyones mind about Jesus or the Bible. You want to know God exists?
Then with an open mind and heart Truthfully, Honestly ask him to reveal himself to you.... if you are honest and open with yourself and God...
you will get the proof you need.... what you do with it after that....

reply to post by iismtivu


Revisionist History is one of the major points that have been discussed in this thread.

You want to know God exists?

The point of this thread is not to prove or disprove God.

reply to post by mmiichael


Very good post. I think you summed up where we seem to be in the discussion very succinctly and thoughtfully.

You know, I've never questioned, in all my years of hard, spiritual searching, the actual existence of Jesus. Political radical, religious revolutionary, mystic alchemist....messiah or nutbag...whatever he is/was is very real to me.

[edit on 26-11-2008 by Nox Vulpes]

reply to post by Nox Vulpes


The other thing is that as soon as he was dead, the legend of Jesus was bigger than the real man. Now, 2000 years later, all we have is legend.

[edit on 26/11/2008 by Good Wolf]

So... if Jesus didn't exist.... then there is no God....no Devil... man is not inherently Evil..... there are no Conseqences... we can all do whatever we want to whoever we want good and bad are just Rules meant to be broken ..... without fear because there is no heaven or hell....
and when we die that's it.... everything just ends......

[edit on 27-11-2008 by iismtivu]

Originally posted by iismtivu
So... if Jesus didn't exist.... then there is no God

No. Where did you get that stupid idea? How many religions in the world make no mention of Jesus.

....no Devil... man is not inherently Evil..... there are no Conseqences...

Consequences? There is a thing called that Law that you should look into.

we can all do whatever we want to whoever we want good and bad are just Rules meant to be broken

Good and Bad are man made concepts that change over time, therefore they aren't real. But again there are consequences for every action we make.

..... without fear because there is no heaven or hell....
and when we die that's it.... everything just ends......

Fear? Fear exists without Christianity. Non-existance of Jesus doesn't negate the idea of life after death either.

Our morals and principles don't come from the bible or Christ for that matter, they come from the Categorical and Moral imperative so you don't have to worry about chaos in the streets.

[edit on 27/11/2008 by Good Wolf]

so... what you call what is going on in the world now if it's not kaos?
and law???? when the rich can get off and the poor are punished....

reply to post by iismtivu


Hey i didn't say I agree with it, I'm just saying that the belief in religion isn't preventing a self-destructive apocalypse.

MAny christians claim that without "God" they would have no morals and there would be no consequences for anything so they go about killing and stealing because they felt like it. That is of course just plain stupidity and ignorance, I can assure you that because I used to be a christian and I'm not in the streets killing and stealing just because I feel like it.




[edit on 27/11/2008 by Good Wolf]

mmmm and in the Bible it states that God, Jesus and the Holy spirit are all the same person...... just like man has a Body, a soul and (spirit)mind....
so to deny that one doesn't exist... or is heresay.....

reply to post by iismtivu


Yea well the bible says alot of things.

No one is suggesting that evidence for Jesus is hearsay, we are stating as a matter of fact, that it is. It's a matter of the historic record -course that dons't mean he doesn't exist, just that no one can say that he does exist with any certainty at all.

[edit on 27/11/2008 by Good Wolf]

And?????? your point?

so what do you believe??? i see alot of bashing going on.......
if God and Jesus and Heaven and Hell are not the answer.... and do whatever feels good cause when we die nothing is left... fade to black is wrong..... then what else is there?

So... unless the person in question is standing in front of you... then their existence is hearsay???????

so... my grandparents are all dead...by your logic my evidence is only hearsay that they existed ...because???? photos, video historical writing i.e. birth records, letters, dr. reports etc... can all be faked/forged???

reply to post by iismtivu


Despite that evidence that your grandparents can be faked is true, all that stuff still counts as contemporary evidence for your grandparents. After all, you exists so you have to have grandparents.

With jesus, outside of the bible there is next to nothing, only one account mentions him by name (which is thought to be an interpolation) and some others referring to a christ (which only means 'annointed one').

There are no eye witness accounts, no artefacts, no grafiti - just hearsay.

so... if in the future... if all evidence of my existence was wiped away... and my Grandparents say by the Anti Christ.... by your logic my grandparents wont exist anymore???? so... if past generations have lost or destroyed the evidence you desire to prove Jesus was real... relagate Jesus existence to hearsay?

reply to post by AlexG141989

No one has the slightest physical evidence to support a historical Jesus; no artifacts, dwelling, works of carpentry, or self-written manuscripts. All claims about Jesus derive from writings of other people. There occurs no contemporary Roman record that shows Pontius Pilate executing a man named Jesus. Devastating to historians, there occurs not a single contemporary writing that mentions Jesus. All documents about Jesus got written well after the life of the alleged Jesus from either: unknown authors, people who had never met an earthly Jesus, or from fraudulent, mythical or allegorical writings.

The reason there is no record is most likely because Pilate did not actually want to execute Jesus - mainly because there was no REAL crime committed and it would have been wrong. The only reason he did this was to appease the Jews and thereby prevent rioting which would have ultimately lost him his position in the area. He was basically on probation at the time, 3 strikes and you're out - he was on his second strike already so to speak.

the reason there is no record of Jesus in history is because the word Jesus is fairly recent, it's not what he would have been called. There are many different names for him as he travelled around. You can check out Issa, perhaps the scribe of Damascus etc.

I think what is more important here is that SOMEONE came up with these words, if not Jesus then who ? - either way it is not the man that has inspired us but the idea behind the man, and that my friend is real. You must understand that at the time he was banding out these concepts and ideas - people were still ritually sacrificing thousands of animals on the passover, woman were lesser beings and people were stoned on a whim.

reply to post by iismtivu


Hearsay status doesn't negate existence, you don't seem to get that. Evidence doesn't change reality, it informs us how likely something is, how positive we can be that something happened.

We have no real corroborating evidence of the bible's account of Jesus, it doesn't even seam to agree with itself on a few things. Yet outside of the bible we have nothing (almost). An objective assessment is that it's likely he didn't exist, but we just can't know for sure.

mmmm...... so it comes down to .... choice? using my free will... to choose despite all supporting evidence or lack thereof..... to believe that
Jesus Existed??? but how can that be if free will is just a myth? and my CHOICE is really not my own.....