The Evidence For Jesus' Existence Is Nothing But Hearsay

I guess I was never a true Christian then . Sure, I felt feelings that made me think Jesus existed. It's amazing what the mind will conjure up. Of course, I've had dreams that have seemed more real than real life. I suppose according to your line of thought, lucid dreams are real just because they seem so.

Yes of course I agree, if you left "The Path" then you never really experienced the Ego death, Illumination, Transcendence, Oneness, selfless Love, and seeing behind the curtain of reality (i.e. the Real Matrix), that comes to one who stays the course of being a true Christian and walking deeply and far down the path.

Of course I dont know why you left, doubts, annoyed by fake Xtians, maybe you only walked the path a few feet had some nice emotions about it all and thats it. IDK

But all the "True" Experiences one has on the Christian Path are IMPOSSIBLE to conjure up wit one's own mind because they are "Beyond" mind, transcendent, so much so that when they happen you realize that it would have been impossible to "trick yourself" into them happening.

Dreams & lucid dreams???? Are you serious??? I would never take such experiences as foundations of truth. The Enlightenments' I speak of, make lucid dreams look like kindergarden school kids.

Nonsense. One man had a VISION of Christ, and he claimed 500 others also had a VISION of Christ - so what?

No, 500 claimed they saw him resurrected, not one man who said 500 others did, as many more were crucified for this. Jesus never broke the law and was crucified, just like hundreds who were saying they saw him crucified never broke the law for saying he wa and were crucified for it, it was politics not broken laws that killed him. We have roman historical records of this happening.

Walk the path yourself genuinely and you will see what your missing, if not, you will never ever know the AMAZINGNESS of being Xtian mystic, and honestly I just can't take your arguments seriously friend.

Christian beliefs are all speculation, with no evidence

WOw!!!!! Besides historians using the Bible as a historical reference, there is SOoooo much archaeological evidence, historical records of the romans and other Gov's, ts just mind blowing. You cant truly be serious with this statement.

Jesus' non existence is indeed taken seriously by some scholars (the few who aren't also faithful believers), and increasingly so.

Some scholars??? Yeah like .0001% of scholars, and no one else takes their doubting the existence of Christ seriously.
________________
Hey AnonymousATS,
when you said:

Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

How true that rings. Jesus also said that to the Carnal man, the Wisdom of Christ is foolishness to their ears. How true indeed.

Sometimes I feel like its just not worth trying to wake people up from the grave of the Ego and carnal self, but the tremendous amount of selfless Love and compassion and transcendent Enlightenment in me just wants to wlak around to every person I see to wake them up to the higher realities staring all of us in the face.

It feels so awesome being in Love with God and having this Enlightenment, nothing even comes close to this experience .....then you have all these haters that just want to stomp out the flames of Infinite Love, a truly sad sight.

reply to post by AlexG141989


Your signature says it all.

The existence of God and Jesus has been discussed on ATS,ad nauseum.

You either have faith that He was who He was ----God. Or you don't. But if you really wanted to find historical evidence for it, there is plenty out there to be found.

God bless.

Originally posted by Manasseh

Arrogance.

Jesus will judge you.

I hope He has more faith in you than
you do in Him.

Good luck.

Hang on,is it not incredibly arrogant (although quite unoriginal and predictable) for members of a certain organised religious cult/sect to go around making very noisy and presumptive blanket statements about how their sect is the 'true path' and everyone else has it wrong.

Surely not just mindlessly accepting the doctrine of the bible and beleiving jesus to be a supernatural entity is 'exactly the same' gamble you take in not believing in:
Cernunnos
Odin
Ja
Boran
Ek Onkar
Aten
Mithras
Igzi'abihier
Shangdi
Parameshavara
Aji-suki-Taki-hi Kone
Janus
Angus Og
Hiiakawawahilani
Blodeuwed
Maeve
Zeus
Agasaya
Burijas
Erra
Allah
Ictinike
Mixcoatl
Menthu
Murukan
Resef
Rugiviet
Samulayo
Turris
Wurrukatte
plus about 3000 more (at least).

Of course there is nothing intrinsically wrong with beleiving in any (or all) of these supernatural beings but when you start going around mouthing off about "how your religion is the only one blah blah" it becomes very sad and pathetic (not to mention terribly insecure).
Cheers Karl

reply to post by karl 12

Surely not just mindlessly accepting the doctrine of the bible and beleiving jesus to be a supernatural entity is 'exactly the same' gamble you take in not believing in: Cernunnos Odin Ja Boran ..........plus about 3000 more (at least).

Karl 12,
The thing is that any argument you can come up w/ against Xtianity is already covered and accounted for. For example having faith in God & Jesus as savior is only on the beginning of the Xtian path, eventual you experience God & Jesus as savior and the experience places you beyond faith, into knowing, i.e. faith is milk for the babies, then Divine experiences are the meat for those grown in the path.

You can't get spiritual enlightenment from any of those "false" gods. Whereas, the Bible stated that until Jesus' appearance on earth, the Holy Spirit had never been given out to the masses. The Holy Spirit referred to here, is the ego death and transcendence of experiencing God directly.

Now I dont doubt Buddha's enlightenment, something he had to "work" for, and I dont doubt Yogi's & Guru's w/ abilities (although this could be had be making deals w. certain lower spiritual entities)

Thing is, when Christ came, he "updated" the God program. It's like drive thru Spiritual Enlightenment, The Rapid Lightning Path for those who are "ready". You just dont see this anywhere else, especially not in my Muslim brothers. I have many Islamic friends and none of them have ever had any experiences even tho they pray like a thousand times a day.

Just saying tho.....

Karl 12,
The thing is that any argument you can come up w/ against Xtianity is already covered and accounted for.

Spoken like a true vassal.
How on earth do you know that?
Seems to me you have thrown objectivity out the window and are not interested in anything that doesn't fit snuggly with your own assumed and preconceived religious agenda.

You can't get spiritual enlightenment from any of those "false" gods.

Yes, yes Ive heard it all before,you've got it right and everybody else who is not in your organised religious cult/sect has got it wrong-as I said in my previous post;very predictable and very unoriginal.

It seems to me that genuine spiritual evoution has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with this kind of selfish religious oneupmanship and is more about embracing fellow humans as one (rather than dividing it into squabbling cults/sects fostering delusions of superiority).

Its all well and good to have faith but remember its not fact.
You wouldn't need to have faith if it was fact would you?

You just dont see this anywhere else, especially not in my Muslim brothers. I have many Islamic friends and none of them have ever had any experiences even tho they pray like a thousand times a day.

All the three abrahamic religions share the same roots-its all based on abrahamic lore-which is quite bloodthirsty and sociopathic I may add.
Beleive what you want but I suspect your fervent prothelasizing about how you're more special,chosen,holy and superior to other people is doing more harm than good to your religious organisation.

reply to post by AlexG141989
Gee What a coincidence!I asked Jesus in prayer and he said the same about YOU!

reply to post by Bnmssnit


I might pray to the Easter bunny and ask him what he thinks of you.

reply to post by karl 12

Spoken like a true vassal. How on earth do you know that? Seems to me you have thrown objectivity out the window and are not interested in anything that doesn't fit snuggly with your own assumed and preconceived religious agenda.

Thing is, I dont have an assumed and preconceived religious agenda. I did before being a Christian Mystic, then after all the Spiritual Enlightenment, it forced me to live by "presume the unpredictable." TO me its not about something "fitting" into what I believe, but more about the difference between a person who has Spiritual Enlightenment and one who doesnt.

One who doesn't, is operating using logic/reason/rationale. One who does, is operating on those three plus transcendence, eternity, infinity, and many other additional faculties as everyday realities. So when reading about a historical person;s philosophy or talking to someone on the street, I hold more importance and value to the words of an Enlightenment, even though he's in no way any better then anyone else, just has more truth flowing through him. Of course, somebody w/o sp-enlightenment, wont understand someone who has it, its over their head most of the time, or as Jesus said, is "foolishness to them."

Yes, yes Ive heard it all before,you've got it right and everybody else who is not in your organised religious cult/sect has got it wrong-as I said in my previous post;very predictable and very unoriginal.

Did I said that? Nope. I have Buddhist friends who also share common spiritual Experiences w/ me. Not everything that I have gone through, but many similarities. I dont say someone has got it wrong, I just say someone is without Spiritual Enlightenment. Being wrong vs. lacking something is 2 different things.

It seems to me that genuine spiritual evoution has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with this kind of selfish religious oneupmanship and is more about embracing fellow humans as one (rather than dividing it into squabbling cults/sects fostering delusions of superiority).

I just cant for the life of me seem to understand where you are making the assumptions based on??? The Spiritual path, specifically the Christian one, is all about Spiritual Evolution, you start off on milk then eventually get to the meat years later, then towards the end dont even have to eat anything because you live those realities, you become the meat. Where are you getting this oneupmanship from??? Did I ever literally state that I'm better than you in any of my posts??? OF COURSE NOT!!!!!! I Love you and all my brothers and sisters on this planet even those who hate me and those of other religions and Atheists.

The only division in my eyes, is those who have spiritual enlightenment and those who dont. Now if my life consists of meditation, Love, peace, scripture reading, yoga exercises, and nature walks, does this mean Im going to hang out with my cousin and his gangbager friends????? Of course not, since you become what you surround yourself w/, When I do go over there, its on my terms and to talk them about God.

So if 1 group of people is enlightened and another isnt, the the one that isnt cant understand the group that is and want nothing to do with them, then its a perpetual separation whereas those that have the Enlightenment understand the oneness of all things, hence Lover everyone unconditionally (the true Christians)

Its all well and good to have faith but remember its not fact. You wouldn't need to have faith if it was fact would you?

I dont need faith because to me God and Jesus are fact. I experience them both daily in Enlightenment. i dont use faith, except to have faith that God will supply and sustain me in this world to help out in any way possible selflessly and to be of service to mankind.

Like when you were in college and had faith that when you graduate you will find a job, then when you have the job you dont need that faith in getting a job anymore. Same case with me, except with God instead of a job.

I suspect your fervent prothelasizing about how you're more special,chosen,holy and superior to other people is doing more harm than good to your religious organisation.

Again, show me where I said im better than you. What made you think this up??? I have Spiritual Enlightenment and when I ask others if they do, even other so called Christians, 99.9% of people tell me "No." Does that make me better??? OF COURSE NOT, thats the stupidest philosophy ever to think I'm better because I have something you dont... thats like kindergarden level intelligence.

Fact is, I wish every single human on this planet had the Spiritual Enlightenment God graceously gave me, because then it would be utopia here. If there was such a thing as a perspective gun like in Hitchiker's Guide to the galaxy, then everyone would want this Enlightenment.

The separation again is those that have it and those that dont. God loves everyone equally, so to get mad at somebody who says they have this is childish, just like to say that one who has it is better than one that does not, is also childish.

Lets grow up here and not take this to being 5 years old. I definitely am not.

This guy isn't really serious is he? I do not believe it! I think he is just writing this cause he knows how stupid most humans are when it comes to Scripture! He has nothing better to do with his time but to sprue forth this kind of drivel!
Most of everything we do and say and believe falls into the same category as the one he is saying about our Messiah!
So for the intelligent ones amoung us: Do not be fooled by someone whom is trying! He is either fooled himself or he is just having some fun to see what kind of arousal he can get!
By the way, Scripture says: The FATHER will send a strong delusion!
Where are you all in this?

reply to post by AlexG141989


The people on no beliefs are calling themselves freethinkers. I wrote them an email asking if an intelligent christian person would be allowed to put something on their website. They denied me, and banned me from emailing them ever again. I thought it was interesting that they say the whole point of their website it to have, and I quote, "no beliefs!" Well, the thought that Jesus didn't exist.... is a belief lol. The website is very one sided, and does not assess both sides of any argument at all.

Originally posted by AlexG141989
OldThinker, it is painfully, PAINFULLY obvious that you did not even bother to read my opening post. You named people such as Pliny, and Tacitus as reliable sources when the quotes in my OP debunk their "reliable" status. You need to read before you respond ok???

Their not having been their personally does not "debunk" their reliable status, as you put it.

Originally posted by dominicus
But all the "True" Experiences one has on the Christian Path are IMPOSSIBLE to conjure up wit one's own mind because they are "Beyond" mind, transcendent, so much so that when they happen you realize that it would have been impossible to "trick yourself" into them happening.

No offense, I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but that sounds like something one of my druggie friends would say concerning whatever new drug is in.
You don't know the power of your own mind.
It has the power to paint this reality, so of course it has the power to expand upon it in whatever way it sees fit.

Originally posted by dominicus
It feels so awesome being in Love with God and having this Enlightenment, nothing even comes close to this experience .....then you have all these haters that just want to stomp out the flames of Infinite Love, a truly sad sight.

It feels so awsome to worship Zeus and obtain his powers of lightning.
But concerning 'love', you are commanded to kill me for saying such a thing.
You follow your own God no more than an atheist does.
You have that book called the Bible yet you do not read it.
You only read the pretty pictures - the "Jesus loves me this I know, for the Bible tells me so".
Do you know what the Bible tells me?
A completely different story than you read I'm sure.
As for us 'haters', I'm sure you misunderstand many of us. I don't hate you, I hate the contradictions, hypocricy, and ignorance.

Originally posted by dominicus
You can't get spiritual enlightenment from any of those "false" gods.

Not so fast.
Have you worshipped these gods? All 3000 of them?
Because I could find a buttload of people who say otherwise - about being spiritualy enlightened by their god.

So two conclusions:

1) Believing in a deity for extended periods of time eventually seeps into the subconscious which explains the feelings, experiences, etc.

OR

2) All the followers of every religion besides yours (of course) are lying about being enlightened.

reply to post by TruthParadox

No offense, I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but that sounds like something one of my druggie friends would say concerning whatever new drug is in. You don't know the power of your own mind. It has the power to paint this reality, so of course it has the power to expand upon it in whatever way it sees fit.

Ok, you may have a point w/ that. But, you cant explain away how, when I went through my Enlightenment, I was indwelled w/ the Holy Spirit, others could see this, feel it passing by when I was at heir house, & back then my sister and her BF lived w/ me and they could feel it also passing by in their bedroom at those times when I wasnt indwelled.. Something that was subjective to me, became objective.

It feels so awsome to worship Zeus and obtain his powers of lightning. But concerning 'love', you are commanded to kill me for saying such a thing.

You can tell a tree by its fruit. If I see you're wielding lighting and you selflessly love complete strangers, then you will have gotten my attention and I would come to you to ask how this came about in you.

There is nowhere in any Bible, gnostic writing, nor anywhere else where it is commanded of me to kill you. Love is the highest of orders. Its something that self-sustains that what Im saying is real. You could slap me, stab me, cut my arm off, kill my whole family ....and while I would be upset that it happened, I would still Love you and forgive you. Thats the nature of the Infinite Divine Love burning through me. Jesus even said many will have the same Love & Spirit that was in him, in them. I would have never believed this could be a reality until it happened to me.

You follow your own God no more than an atheist does.

Well, to me, I know God is real. I dont have faith in this matter, I have "knowing," but an atheist is running on a completely different set of notions, I used to be one, so I understand both sides of the coin

You have that book called the Bible yet you do not read it.

You're right!!! I wish I had more time to read more of it. The cool thing is that its self activating in that if you read it and follow what Jesus taught, it will activate things in you. For example the Bible states that you will eventually receive the Holy Spirit, who will teach you additional things through direct experience. No man can teach you, but the Spirit, will guide you at that point. This is where Im at now, so every waking day brings new Mystical delights!!!!

You only read the pretty pictures - the "Jesus loves me this I know, for the Bible tells me so".

Personally I dont agree w/ many things in the Bible, especially the OT. Does that make me less a Christian?? Not in my eyes because I still profess Christ and choose to be explained the correct interpretations when I get "up there," since there is no point getting stuck in intellectual circles w/ others about debates. The main fruits of the Bible are Divine Mystical Love, peace, contentment, happiness, Enlightenment, selflessness, ego death, and so on. So I choose to rest in those things directly.

Do you know what the Bible tells me? A completely different story than you read I'm sure.

I dont know what it tells you and what you get out of it. But I say this, because I have done this many times before; many people find one line in the Bible or 1 story that they have an issue with, and use that as an excuse for the rest of their lives. As excuse to not go deeper into the Bible and extract the soul and essence of it. There are many self-sabotaging intellectual traps and excuses in the path, a path thats extremely narrow, like a razors edge.

As for us 'haters', I'm sure you misunderstand many of us. I don't hate you, I hate the contradictions, hypocricy, and ignorance.

Thats great!!!! I didnt mean to stereotype, but I said it in that matter because the haters will know who they are and will admit it. Perhaps technically you are a Christian, or should I say a Jesus acceptor who dislikes many things of what what his followers do in his name.

interesting.

reply to post by dominicus


You said some amazing things, thanks. I try to avoid lengthy theology/philosophy discussions...lately, at least. Trying to maintain that beginner's mind. I read and listen to as much as I can regarding truth and origins and purpose and all that, and then I tend to retreat inwards and reflect. It's all about suffering and pain avoidance for me, really. My mind becomes agitated easily, so meditation and intense control exercises work best.

More on topic, I just found a used book called The Lost Books of the Bible. I've been reading Gospel of Mary and it is much more detailed regarding her upbringing and the conception, amazing stuff about her relevance. The young Jesus stories are very interesting, too. Shows a young, hot-headed Jesus who kills a boy at one point. Of course, the arc of the story makes more sense to me, but there's so much I need to read. The Barnabas writings were very powerful, too I thought.

Intense thread, thanks
Cheers

Originally posted by OldThinker
reply to post by AlexG141989

 

AlexG141989,

Woosaaa!!!!

Let's all slow down...I did read your post...and I understand your are passionate....BUT....WHY?

Help OT out, please....what is the motivation to DEBUNK us Christians? Have one of us pissed you off...really...OT wants to know...

Really, please let down the guard...and share with me...or U2U me, ok?

I can understand ZEAL from us Christians...we see this debate as eternal damnation for those who reject....but what are you 'protecting me from? Since we all become fertilizer at the end...and live in survival-of-the-fitest-during life????

Give OT some insight, ok?

[edit on 3-9-2008 by OldThinker]

You are very obviously highly indoctrinated.

My heart is so heavy now. There seems to be so many people are opening their posts with no offenise And then they start in on their soap box. I am not going to name names but if the shoe fits......as they say.

The issue here is that Jesus did exist. He is the true Son of the Living God. And it was through his sacrifice of being the perfect blood offering to his Father that we now have a way to reach heaven its self. Come on guys isn't that the most amazing thing.

Like King David said:"I saw the Lord always before me. Because he is at my right hand. I will not be shaken. Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices; my body also will live in hope, because you will not abandon me to the grave, not will you let your Holy One see decay. You have made known to me the paths of life; you will fill me with joy in presence."

He has made known to me the paths of life and he fills me with joy in his presence. We all know the same Jesus.......and His Father........we all will get there by staying steadfast in the fight of faith. We need tp build each other up and not tear each other down. For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body.

Love is patient, love is kind It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud, It is not rude, it is not self seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.

Let's show a little more love OK?


Shalom.
Grandma

reply to post by Grandma


Even when it get heated and emotional, I think we're all looking for the love - however we choose to define it

Related to the actual evidence of Christ's existence, my local university conducted the tests to authenticate the James ossuary, and I've always wanted to go up there and take a peek and ask questions. Does anyone here have any opinions on that particular artifact?

reply to post by Grandma


I find your post very ironic because of this:

And then they start in on their soap box.

Then this:

The issue here is that Jesus did exist. He is the true Son of the Living God..............

Doesn't bring much to the debate I must say.

Originally posted by dominicus

It feels so awsome to worship Zeus and obtain his powers of lightning. But concerning 'love', you are commanded to kill me for saying such a thing.

There is nowhere in any Bible, gnostic writing, nor anywhere else where it is commanded of me to kill you.

This is what I mean by saying you don't know your own Bible. And from what you're writting, you seem to be saying that you only follow the New Testament?
Though Jesus Himself spoke of the Old Testament and for us to obey the commandments, so I guess you pick and choose what you read as most Christians do.
If you believe the Old Testament commandments are from God, then you absolutely are commanded to kill me for believing in Zeus or any other god for that matter.

Originally posted by dominicus
Personally I dont agree w/ many things in the Bible, especially the OT. Does that make me less a Christian??

Christianity seems to be in the eye of the beholder...

Originally posted by dominicus
Not in my eyes because I still profess Christ and choose to be explained the correct interpretations when I get "up there," since there is no point getting stuck in intellectual circles w/ others about debates.

So then you're one of the very few Christians who does not believe the Bible is perfect or without flaws. Most Christians wouldn't dare even consider this.