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The Evidence For Jesus' Existence Is Nothing But Hearsay

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posted on Nov, 11 2008 @ 02:33 PM
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reply to post by Anonymous ATS
 


Oh gosh. It's great to read a well thought out, well-structured anonymous post for once.

Thanks for the link!
It looks a good read.




posted on Nov, 11 2008 @ 09:17 PM
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GW...

Yo!

I looked over the 'anon' post and link/website...

Do they not have time to sign up on ATS?
why remain hidden????

What would cause someone to waste SO much time making a website?


OT loves when smart people articulate stupid ideas...
it is funny to watch..but in all reality sad to see!

Not you bro...you are always well researched...but this site? please??

Challenge here: probably won't see the results though?

Let's check back with the authors of this site in....10 years...ok?....

OT guarantees you...they will say..."WTF, was I thinking?"

Life has a (great) way of teaching us the TRUTH....

Hey, no argument here from me...just a small challenge....ok?

Time WILL TELL!!!!!

c-ya!

OT has lived long enough...to know (or atleast) surmize



posted on Nov, 11 2008 @ 09:23 PM
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reply to post by OldThinker
 





Now why on earth would you say a thing like that? What is your motivation.


Here's a challenge for you, respond to my posts in a non-cryptic manner, casual sentence structure because your post are really annoying.

Can you speak in first person, I wonder.



posted on Nov, 11 2008 @ 09:47 PM
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Boy, this is a LONG thread....

I just check in when I see it is updated...when I'm online.

Have not seen your posts (on this thread) lately...been a bit busy...

I am sure they are tight/strong/etc...

You are a great thinker!!!!

That is not the REAL issue GW....

OT won't argue bud...

I'll let TIME do what it does....

Sorry....

U U2U me...later if you want? need?

If not, I'll see you on the great ATS site, along the way...as we read/post

OT is absolutely the most humble...kind...real follower...you will ever meet...I am not here to win an argument (battle) in the short-run...I am just a SEED-PLANTER...hoping/praying TRUTH will find you!

I know this is cyclical, but...the NT says...


Another great verse about God's love is found in Romans 5:8, "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." In this verse and in John 3:16, we find no conditions placed on God's love for us. God doesn't say, "as soon as you clean up your act, I'll love you; " nor does He say, "I'll sacrifice my Son if you promise to love Me." In fact, in Romans 5:8, we find just the opposite. God wants us to know that His love is unconditional, so He sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to die for us while we were still unlovable sinners. We didn't have to get clean, and we didn't have to make any promises to God before we could experience His love. His love for us has always existed, and because of that, He did all the giving and sacrificing long before we were even aware that we needed His love.


Source: www.allaboutgod.com...

I am not on this site for fun...it's a mission...seriously....a mission...because time is SHORT


OT out
Philippians 1:3



posted on Nov, 11 2008 @ 10:36 PM
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reply to post by OldThinker
 


You missed the point by a mile.


Why did you make an unnecessary attack on that website mentioned in the anonymous post? You didn't make any commentary on it's content or any valid argument against it.

You seem to just be wasting posts.


I don't want to u2u you because you are commonsensical -you are a poor seed planter for that very reason.



posted on Nov, 11 2008 @ 11:09 PM
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The evidence of Jesus' exsistance is far more then hearsay. How about UFO's and ghosts ? People believe in that stuff without ' real ' proof.
People know that the air we breath is real and it's never been seen.
It's just God that has never been seen that seems to be the hardest to accept. All other things can be believed that don't have evidence ( other then what someone has said ) I do believe in Jesus and I do believe in God, I believe that they both exsist. I see proof everyday that God the Father is alive and living in is heavenly kingdom with His Son, Christ Jesus at his right side. God is the creator of all things ~ even those that don't believe in Him. He supports each and everyone of us with every heart beat we are blessed to have and every breath of air He ALLOWS us to breath. I don't have to see God's face to know He is real either. Just like I don't have to see air to know that it's real. Spirits can't be seen, does that make them not real ? It's those that don't see and still believe that are blessed.



posted on Nov, 11 2008 @ 11:26 PM
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And what if the bible is just a myth and all history is but a lie?



posted on Nov, 11 2008 @ 11:44 PM
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Originally posted by Good Wolf
reply to post by OldThinker
 


You missed the point by a mile.


Why did you make an unnecessary attack on that website mentioned in the anonymous post? You didn't make any commentary on it's content or any valid argument against it.

You seem to just be wasting posts.


I don't want to u2u you because you are commonsensical -you are a poor seed planter for that very reason.


No GW... I did not, nor ever, MISS your Points...

Your posts (thoughts/worldview) is evident...

Your inability to respond to criticism (of your ideas) is well documented...this stuff is a 'record' on the internet...all can read...

Mine, too, btw...it is all there for anyone to read...you know my positions...I have answered you/others over and over...I will not waste my time repeating myself...!

Why do you ask me to respond to an immature website? When you know what/why/how I believe? We have been down this road before...my position is not new to you (or anyone else who hits the 'oldthinker' hyperlink)....its all there!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Back to the issue...that you ignored....again...with diversion/changing the subject or calling others to divert...OT made some points in the last post....and you didn't address...oh well, I'm used to it!

LISTEN MAN...in your heart you wish I am right...and as arrogant, as you may think...I pray that you will humble yourself...and REALLY seek Him/truth...

Please don't feel offended...here's another arrogant thing...I was there, just like you...and found mercy/love/purpose/fulfillment...you can too.

OT

Also....'commonsensical?' is not a word GW...and seeing the fruit of 'seed planting' is not viewable is the short-term...so patience...and stop resorting to immature attacks...deal with my content big boy, ok?!!!!



posted on Nov, 11 2008 @ 11:58 PM
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reply to post by OldThinker
 


"commonsensical" .... Oh sorry, i screwed up the spell checking. It was supposed to say "nonsensical"


Anyhow, you say that I ignored you point. Well I made points before you did that you ignored. So its a bit hypocritical to accuse me of diverting isn't it.

But you have made it clear that you are not going to justify needlessly basing that web site.



posted on Nov, 12 2008 @ 12:04 AM
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I cant believe people actually think the bible is historical fact.

Read what the bible is based on, where it came from and how it came to be, how much was left out from its actual conception and how many times its been edited.



posted on Nov, 12 2008 @ 12:08 AM
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reply to post by Horus12
 


For the record, I don't.



posted on Nov, 14 2008 @ 09:52 AM
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Hate to burst your bubble, but there is little, if any, physical evidence of the existence of any particular person from any time period dating prior to about 1400.

Even after that, paintings could easily be faked. So could busts and statues. Other than the primted word, what evidence exists to prove that Homer, Confucious, Aristotle, etc. actually lived?

It is the written record that shows that all of those historical figures actually lived.

As to Jesus, well very few Israeli's of that era were recorded in any document at all. The Romans did not record each and ever execution in Palestine (their name for the area). They recorded very few local names, because the locals were of no importance to them at all.

In fact, there is significantly more evidence that Jesus existed than most people from that part of the world in that time frame. Even the Jews acknowledge that he lived, and that he was a great teacher.



posted on Nov, 14 2008 @ 09:58 AM
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Originally posted by Horus12
I cant believe people actually think the bible is historical fact.

Read what the bible is based on, where it came from and how it came to be, how much was left out from its actual conception and how many times its been edited.



Ummm, I have a degree in religious studies from the 22nd best State-run university in the country (acc. US News & World Report), and have actually studyed the history of the Bible. I graduated with honors.

I know the Bible is history, dude. It checks out quite well.

PS. - Word of advice; don't believe those skeptics who scream "The Bible was edited! They left stuff out!" They're just tryig to get you excited so you'll buy their book.



posted on Nov, 14 2008 @ 10:53 AM
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reply to post by papabryant
 


I dont believe the skeptics Iv read about it myself, it "has" been edited countless times and lots of it was left out.



Look at where the bible was fromed from.

The five scrolls or books of the Pentateuch tell the history of the Israelites from the creation of the universe, through the exodus from Egypt and the revelation at Mount Sinai to their entry into the Promised Land.

Traditional Judaism and fundamentalist Christianity believe that the text was dictated by God to Moses on Mount Sinai, letter for letter (or pretty much letter for letter).
Other religious groups still ascribe authorship to Moses, but use words like "divinely inspired" rather than "dictated letter for letter."
Still others say Moses was the sole author, but there's nothing "divine" about it except in the sense that all great works of literature and poetry are "inspired."

This is the old tesatament. Some people believed Moses wrote it, but then why and how could/would he write about his own death.

Mosaic authorship would mean the five books were written around 1280 to 1250 BC, the most commonly accepted range of dates for the exodus from Egypt, give or take 30 years.

There is the fact that a lot of the information from these writings were left out of the old testament and then you take into consideration how many times the book itself has been edited.

"Several stories are repeated, with different characters or different emphasis (called "doublets"). For instance, there are two creation stories (Gen 1 and Gen 2). There are three stories of a patriarch traveling among pagans and pretending his wife is his sister. There are two stories of Moses striking a rock to produce water. There are two versions of the Ten Commandments (one in Exodus, one that Moses recaps in Deuteronomy) with slightly different wording. There are, in fact, a lot of these doublets.

There are internal inconsistencies. The number of days of the Flood story don't add up right. At one point, Noah takes two of each animal; at another point, he takes two of some, seven of others. Joseph is sold into slavery to Ishmaelites in one verse, to Midianites a few verses later. The Mountain of Revelation is sometimes called Sinai and sometimes Horeb. Moses' father-in-law is sometimes called Yitro and sometimes Ruel, and so on. "

Later analysis of the grammar, vocabulary, and writing style provided evidence for two other authors--called P for the Priestly author (mostly Leviticus, and lots of the genealogy) and D for the Deuteronomist, since the book of Deuteronomy seemed different (grammatically and politically) from the earlier books. The multiple-author view has come to be called the "Documentary theory."

show some fact dont just try the "I know, Im qualified, trust me" crap eh



posted on Nov, 14 2008 @ 11:07 AM
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all i'm gonna say, is all history is hearsay. The people who wrote books.... how do we know they're not fictional? because professors say so? if there's so many people saying it's true, why would we believe it? It's all hear-say though! That's how we know about things that happened 1000 years ago!



posted on Nov, 14 2008 @ 12:38 PM
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The bible agree with history. It talks about kingdom falling and raising, and king and queens and they where kings and queens and real cities that where found in history. You got bible predicts that show the truth of Christianity. God bless



posted on Nov, 14 2008 @ 01:05 PM
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Originally posted by Horus12
reply to post by papabryant
 


I dont believe the skeptics Iv read about it myself, it "has" been edited countless times and lots of it was left out.


Oh, and WHERE did you read it? WHO wrote what you read?

Answer: Skeptics out to sell books by making fantastic claims. Do these names ring a bell? Tom Harpur? Acharya S? The Jesus Seminar?

The fact is unless they claim to challenge some long held notion about the Bible most publishers won't touch them - because there is no way to market them to anyone other than academics in the field and the avid Churchman. And they WON'T read them because they are full of crap.


Traditional Judaism and fundamentalist Christianity believe that the text was dictated by God to Moses on Mount Sinai, letter for letter (or pretty much letter for letter).


NO THEY DO NOT! That is prehaps the single most pernicious urban legend of all. NO Jewish or Christian group in the mainstream believes that Moses transcribed the Torah from God's vocalized instruction. Whatever book you got that one from, take it back and demand an immediate refund!


This is the old tesatament. Some people believed Moses wrote it, but then why and how could/would he write about his own death.


Because Moses didn't write it with his own hands; he dictated it to scribes, as would be common for leaders in the ANE to do. When Moses died, the scribes finished the story, writing in the name of their patron, Moses (also a common practice - see the Gospel of John for another example).


There is the fact that a lot of the information from these writings were left out of the old testament and then you take into consideration how many times the book itself has been edited.


It HASN'T BEEN EDITED! Up until the 1940's the oldest surviving copy of the OT dated to times AFTER Christ - the Leningrad Codex. Then the Dead Sea Scrolls were found, and they predate Christianity by 200 years. And the surviving OT scrolls found in the Dead Sea collection were WORD FOR WORD what the Leningrad Codex said.


Several stories are repeated, with different characters or different emphasis (called "doublets"). For instance, there are two creation stories (Gen 1 and Gen 2).


Oh, this is a HOWLER! Genesis 2 is not a separate account, but a suppliment to Genesis 1, written in the typical "most important event first" style common to Semitic literature. All of your other stories follow the same event - suppliment pattern - the same pattern found in the literature of every other Semitic people. Stop trying to read it like it was yesterday's USA Today and remember that it is a product of a culture that is totally foreign to your 21st Century Western individualistic way of thinking. Those inconsistancies evaporate once you do that. (I would recommend you find some books written by a group of scholars called "The Context Group" - or find the book "The Handbook of Biblical Social Values" published by Hendricksen Books)

The multiple-author view has come to be called the "Documentary theory."

Which no one who works in the field accepts anymore. And hasn't for about 30 years. The Documentary Hypothesis stated 4 authors (refered to as "JEDP" - you only had two of them) wrote the text. Its been replaced by the scribe theory, which fits known practices in the region AND explains the stylistic differences in the text.


show some fact dont just try the "I know, Im qualified, trust me" crap eh

Those enough for you, or do I have to break out the textbooks and quote them like a research paper?



posted on Nov, 14 2008 @ 01:13 PM
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There is the fact that a lot of the information from these writings were left out of the old testament ...


And another thing, if they left information out of it, how would you know? You were there perhaps? Care to share what you saw they left out?

Sheeesh!



posted on Nov, 14 2008 @ 03:34 PM
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Gday,


Originally posted by papabryant
It HASN'T BEEN EDITED! Up until the 1940's the oldest surviving copy of the OT dated to times AFTER Christ - the Leningrad Codex. Then the Dead Sea Scrolls were found, and they predate Christianity by 200 years. And the surviving OT scrolls found in the Dead Sea collection were WORD FOR WORD what the Leningrad Codex said.


Rubbish.
They are NOT "word for word" at all.

There are many differences, even in the famous Isaiah scroll which you apologists keep claiming is exactly identical.

It's not.

The various multiple MSS are all DIFFERENT.
DIFFERENCES so significant that modern bibles have been changed to match.

But of course, no matter how many times this fact is pointed out, you ignore it and keep on faithfully preaching your faithful beliefs.

Posted below AGAIN are some of the differences.

But we all know papabryant will just ignore these known facts and keep on preaching how they are "identical".

Another "liar for Christ."

Isaiah 14:30
The RSV and NRSV follow 1QIsaa in translating, “I will slay,” instead of “he/it will slay.” The Isaiah scroll seems to better fit the context in which this passage is preceded by another first person singular verb. Among the ancient versions, only the Latin agrees with 1QIsaa. Burrows finds the Qumran reading quite convincing (1955:307), and the NEB/REB concur. However, HOTTP prefers the MT, explaining the shift to third person as a reference back to “the venomous serpent” of 14:29.

Isaiah 15:9
In Isaiah’s oracle against Moab, the well-known Moabite city of Dibon is mentioned in 15:2. In 15:9 Dimon is mentioned twice in the MT. 1QIsab agrees with the MT, but is only extant for the first occurrence. The RSV and NRSV follow the 1QIsaa reading, “Dibon,” and the NIV cites this Qumran evidence in a note. Should the translator follow 1QIsaa or 1QIsab? Dimon may be understood as an alternate name for Dibon, using this name as a literary device to sound like the Hebrew word dam (blood) in the same verse. This explanation is plausible, since name puns are used elsewhere in the OT. It is also possible that this is another city in Moab, although it is otherwise unknown. The RSV opted for the 1QIsaa harmonization with 15:2. Burrows (1955:307–308) implies that this is one of the thirteen 1QIsaa readings adopted by the RSV committee that he would reject upon later reflection. However, the NRSV retains Dibon. The NEB translates “Dimon,” while the REB renders “Dibon,” but fails to offer any textual note, in contradiction to their general policy of citing Qumran evidence.

Isaiah 19:18
In a note, NIV cites Q (= Qumran), along with some MSS of the MT in support of the reading “City of the Sun.” Other versions, including RSV and NRSV, read “City of the Sun” in the text without adding a textual note. This follows the general practice of many translations that do not cite textual variants if there is any manuscript support in the Masoretic tradition.

Isaiah 21:8
The NJV offers an English rendering of the difficult MT, “And [like] a lion he called out.” The bracketed “like,” which is not part of the MT, makes “lion” a simile and helps it to fit the context. Otherwise, “lion” hardly seems appropriate here. Earlier translations resorted to conjectural emendation here, but now 1QIsaa offers a more intelligible reading, hr’h (the lookout/watcher/sentry) for the MT ’ryh (lion). The NIV, GNB, RSV, and NRSV all follow the Qumran reading in the text. HOTTP suggests that translators may follow 1QIsaa, although it believes that this is “certainly not the original text.”


K.



posted on Nov, 14 2008 @ 03:54 PM
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Hi all,

As well as the many many differences found in the various DIFFERENT copies of Isaiah in the DSS, there are various other DIFFERENCES in other books as well.

Here are some examples :


4QGenk has added "and dry land appeared" indicating that the longer reading of the LXX is from an ancient Hebrew text that the MT lost by haplography. The LXX addition says, "and the waters below heaven gathered into their gathering place and dry land appeared" (See Charlesworth, 2000, p.200).


Genesis 4:8
Genesis 4:8 leaves us with the unanswered question about What did Cain say to Abel? The Samaritan Pentateuch and the LXX have what Cain said. The LXX says, "Let us go out into the field." 4QGenb does not have this reading, but scholars think the sentence dropped out because of scribal error (Ibid., 15).

Exodus 1:3
4QExodb in Exodus 1:3 has "Joseph and Benjamin" while the MT, SP, and LXX have only "Benjamin." Frank Cross thinks 4QExodb reading should be preferred (Ibid., 201-203).

Deuteronomy 32:8
4QDeutj and the LXX say, "according to the number of the sons of God" while the MT and SP say, "according to the number of the sons of Israel." "Sons of Israel" does not make sense here. This is probably a theological change. The 4QDeutj and the LXX seem to preserve the older reading that implies a god, or guardian angel for each nation.

Joshua 8:34-35
4QJosha locates the paragraph about Joshua's construction of an altar (Joshua 8:30-35, MT) at the beginning of Joshua 5. The LXX locates this paragraph at Joshua 9:7-8. Josephus follows the 4QJosha tradition which is probably the earliest or original order of Joshua.

Judges 6:6-11
4QJudga is different from the MT and the LXX in that it lacks Judges 6:7-10. These missing verses are said to be a literary insertion added by an editor. Here is clear evidence of scribal expansion of the MT.

Psalms
There are a number of additional Psalms in the DSS than in our Bible. Psalms 1-89 are basically the same as ours in the DSS (Psalm 32, and 70 are absent). From Psalm 91 on there are radical differences in arrangement, and/or in different Psalms that have never been seen before (Psalm 90 is not preserved). There are a total of 15 different Psalms which are not included in our present Bible, nine of which were completely unknown. None of the Psalm scrolls found has our present day arrangement of the Book of Psalms.

Psalm 22
Psalm 22:17 in the MT "like a lion are my hands and feet" which does not make sense. The LXX and 5/6HevPs read "They have pierced my hands and feet."

Psalm 145 is an alphabetical psalm. Each verse begins with the next letter in the alphabet, but "N" verse is missing in the MT and KJV. In the DSS it is there, so somehow a scribe left this verse out.

Ezekiel
The oldest known texts of Ezekiel are from the Dead Sea Scrolls. The Dead Sea Scroll Bible states, Small fragments from six manuscripts of Ezekiel were found at Qumran and another atop Masada. All of them and the traditional Masoretic Text fairly uniformly attest the same textual tradition. Only seven minor variants are clearly preserved, though reconstruction according to spatial requirements indicates that in two places (5:13 and 23:16) the scrolls may have had a shorter text than the Masoretic Text" (page 407).


Clear and present proof of many differences between the DSS and the Masoretic Text (the MT) such as the Leningrad Codex.

Clear and present proof that OldThinker and papabryant are wrong.

Will they admit it ?


K.



[edit on 14-11-2008 by Kapyong]



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