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The Evidence For Jesus' Existence Is Nothing But Hearsay

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posted on Sep, 21 2008 @ 06:24 PM
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Originally posted by JaxonRoberts

The question of this thread is did Jesus exist. Not his divinity or the accuracy of the accounts of his life. Simply, did he exist.


no, its about the evidence of jesus' existence which is a fine distinction and includes by definition accounts of his life written DURING HIS LIFE, if they had existed.

[edit on 21-9-2008 by Convex]




posted on Sep, 21 2008 @ 07:17 PM
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Originally posted by AlexG141989
In my research into the existence of Jesus, I was startled that most of the evidence of his existence that theists point me to, more often than not is nothing more than hearsay. How can we come to a clear conclusion when you have nothing but hearsay supporting your claims??? I found a link that went into great detail about this, and I will post quotations from the author.

www.nobeliefs.com...


No one has the slightest physical evidence to support a historical Jesus; no artifacts, dwelling, works of carpentry, or self-written manuscripts. All claims about Jesus derive from writings of other people. There occurs no contemporary Roman record that shows Pontius Pilate executing a man named Jesus. Devastating to historians, there occurs not a single contemporary writing that mentions Jesus. All documents about Jesus got written well after the life of the alleged Jesus from either: unknown authors, people who had never met an earthly Jesus, or from fraudulent, mythical or allegorical writings.



Just thought we should review the begining of the OP.


No one has the slightest physical evidence to support a historical Jesus; no artifacts, dwelling, works of carpentry, or self-written manuscripts.


Maybe I'm dumb, but that seems to be asking for proof of the historical proof of Jesus.



posted on Sep, 21 2008 @ 07:51 PM
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Originally posted by JaxonRoberts
Just thought we should review the begining of the OP.


No one has the slightest physical evidence to support a historical Jesus; no artifacts, dwelling, works of carpentry, or self-written manuscripts.


Maybe I'm dumb, but that seems to be asking for proof of the historical proof of Jesus.


i wouldn't say dumb, but you're confused. i dont' know what "proof of proof" means but i'll assume its a typo.

here is the relevant portion which you posted, which tells us that documents written during jesus' life is relevant to this thread:


Originally posted by AlexG141989
Devastating to historians, there occurs not a single contemporary writing that mentions Jesus. All documents about Jesus got written well after the life of the alleged Jesus from either: unknown authors, people who had never met an earthly Jesus, or from fraudulent, mythical or allegorical writings.


here the OP, in quoting scholars, is calling into question the accuracy and relevancy of writings that mention jesus.

so with that in mind how can you say:


Originally posted by JaxonRoberts
Not [...] the accuracy of the accounts of his life. Simply, did he exist.


the whole above passage mentions accounts of jesus' life. if there was one written during jesus' life or by someone who knew him personally it would be considered evidence.



posted on Sep, 21 2008 @ 07:57 PM
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reply to post by Convex
 


And there are none that are accepted by Christians. One could argue that the Gnostic Gospels are such proof, but Christianity dismisses these accounts, as they are not included in the Bible.

[edit on 21-9-2008 by JaxonRoberts]



posted on Sep, 21 2008 @ 08:16 PM
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Originally posted by JaxonRoberts
And there are none that are accepted by Christians. One could argue that the Gnostic Gospels are such proof, but Christianity dismisses these accounts, as they are not included in the Bible.


i think we both agree on this. we're on the same page.

but i haven't seen a gnostic gospel that dates to the time of jesus' life and would appreciate you pointing me in that direction.



posted on Sep, 21 2008 @ 08:22 PM
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reply to post by Convex
 


Not so much the dating, but the authors of them. Among them; The Apostle Thomas (of doubting fame), Mary Magdeline & The Apostle Philip.



posted on Sep, 21 2008 @ 08:59 PM
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Originally posted by JaxonRoberts
Not so much the dating, but the authors of them. Among them; The Apostle Thomas (of doubting fame), Mary Magdeline & The Apostle Philip.


yes, but then that brings up the question of if it was really THEM as original authors. if we don't have surviving manuscripts that date to the period when they lived, and all of them having written nothing else, how can we know for sure it wasn't written in the 2nd century and their name tagged on to it to lend it more authenticity?



posted on Sep, 21 2008 @ 09:00 PM
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hey just thought id drop in a line...now every one is here for gods purpose, that purpose??well i dont know because i aint god lol, even you and all your research and theories its all in gods will nobody can say you are going to hell because if they do they are condemning themselves, now the jesus belief to be honest NOBODY knows the truth about him, not even the top (so called) scholars would'nt know about him, assupmtions and theories,we should just get on knowing that there is a son of GOD and that he did save us from hell,weither he die and rose again well thats totally up to you, i understand y people are the way they are, even you and your beliefs, i see no iniquity,they say jesus died for all our sins, well then if thats the case then nobody is going to hell, now the whole GOD concept has been messed up,i think GOD is who GOD is,he is eternal actually he is eternity itself,well thats what i believe and probably most christians aswell,he loves us and all and yes if you go to him with a whole heart and not just to test if he is real he will reveal himself to you, creation, nobody can claim to know how we were created all they can do is think think think research and then they just become THEORIES and not facts, and dont you think the whole adam and eve thing is a bit fantasy like, what i am trying to say is that we can do as much as we can to try prove people wrong about this whole religious thing and vice versa but in the end we dont know nothing, i say is it wrong to stand in the midst of the war that is constantly wageing and say PEACE? i was once a devout evangelican christian hard into it, but when i took a look at the bigger picture i thought to myself "well y is everyone arguing over this, they're reading the same book yet they argue over who has the truth and who doesnt, i believe in GOD and that somewhere out there he has an only son because i had quite an experience with GOD and it was a pretty freaky one too but thats another story, but in the end brother i have nothing against you, as a matter of fact i dont really have anything against anyone, i dont really see any need to,
GOD BLESS you...
just one more thing...these are just my thoughts doesnt mean you have to believe me just keep open minded....because you never know......



posted on Sep, 22 2008 @ 08:08 AM
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reply to post by lifeiswhatyoumakeit
 


Nice post. I just want to comment, you said Jesus died for ALL of our sins so not to worry. Yes He did die for our sins, but a person must do certain things in order to sanctfy what He did for us, which is repent of your sins, and acknowledge Jesus as The Savior. He said "If you'll not acknowledge me before men I'll not acknowledge you before my father" -- that doesn't make him a harda$$, hey, He deserves a little respect.



posted on Sep, 22 2008 @ 08:34 AM
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reply to post by Bombeni
 


The Bible also allows sex between a father and daughter and an uncle and niece. Does that make it okay? The Bible forbids you to eat pork. When was the last time you ate bacon? The Bible says women are not to be the teachers of men. Need I really comment on this??


The Twelve Tribes of Israel... everything jesus and anyone else said when they were talking about saving their people and i will come back for my people and so on....were talking about JEWISH people....Jesus was JEWISH...he knew nothing about christianity or america (it didn't exist by that name) or anything you today call religion.

Where did the Chinese and Japanese come from? What about the Celts? The Germanic tribes? Doesn't anyone ever bother actually reading this book themselves before the just "buy into it"


You want to believe so badly....believe in yourself...not fairy-tales.



posted on Sep, 22 2008 @ 11:07 AM
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reply to post by blupblup
 


They also cut the throats of goats and offered them as a sacrifice, men did this in a desperate attempt to get right with God. Man could never get it right, and so God came up with the perfect plan by sending His only begotten Son as the ultimate sacrifice. Jesus also spent a few years making clear the things of the Old Testament. When Jesus came the old things passed away. "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
2 Corinthians 5:17

Anything else?

Edit: I never gave a thought as to where other races come from, other than God. There is no other possibility. Now for someone who is an athiest I can understand that would keep you up at night. But when you know the truth, you have a "peace that surpasses all understanding" -- I truly feel for you. I am so happy I don't have to bang my head wondering what is right. It is such a waste of time.

[edit on 22-9-2008 by Bombeni]



posted on Sep, 22 2008 @ 11:13 AM
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Originally posted by Bombeni

He said "If you'll not acknowledge me before men I'll not acknowledge you before my father"


what exactly is jesus asking you to acknowledge? is it really explicitly spelled out in jesus' own words? certiainly not in matthew 10. how do you know you're acknowledging him in the way he wanted? if this doesn't scare you, you're only giving his words lip service.

just a little bit above that, in matthew 10:5-6 jesus tells you:


Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans; but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


in other words, it sounds like you should only be concentrating on jewish people. are you keeping with THAT edict? or do you pick and choose what of jesus' words you want to heed?



posted on Sep, 22 2008 @ 11:29 AM
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reply to post by Convex
 


Convex, I can only tell you that I go where the Spirit leads me. I have never been a Bible scholar or anything close to it; rather I skim the pages and when I find something that strikes me at that particular time, I read it. I just don't get my panties in a wad over ANY of it.

Matthew 18 >>
American Standard Version

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 In that hour came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven? 2 And he called to him a little child, and set him in the midst of them, 3 and said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye turn, and become as little children, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven. 4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus told us to become as children, which I interpret to mean not full of knowledge but rather just accepting, as a child. Lately I am thinking that non-believers are reading the Bible more than I do. Hey maybe there's hope after all!

[edit on 22-9-2008 by Bombeni]



posted on Sep, 22 2008 @ 11:53 AM
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Originally posted by Bombeni
Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.


what happened to the word "humble"? you changed it to acceptance somehow. your putting yourself as better than anyone who doesn't believe, isn't very humble is it? nothing you've posted on this thread could ever be mistaken as humble.



posted on Sep, 22 2008 @ 12:01 PM
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reply to post by Convex
 


Because it takes humility to go against the grain of our selfish flesh and admit to the need of a savior. That is what it means to humble oneself. And, yes, the context definitely shows 'acceptance.' We have to humble ourselves in order to accept Christ in the manner that we are to acknowledge we cannot do it alone or with our own power.



posted on Sep, 22 2008 @ 12:34 PM
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Originally posted by AshleyD
Because it takes humility to go against the grain of our selfish flesh and admit to the need of a savior.


so you're saying this is what children do? confused....



posted on Sep, 22 2008 @ 12:38 PM
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reply to post by Convex
 


Child-like. Jesus wants us to be child-like in our approach to Him. Not boastful, arrogant, 'proceeding with caution,' or anything else. But going to Him with trust just like a child would trust their parent.



posted on Sep, 22 2008 @ 12:47 PM
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reply to post by AshleyD
 


No offense, but isn't that what any invisible deity would want? For us to be like children and simply accept what we hear? If you lived by these laws and were born in China, you would be Buddhist. Are you supposed to live this way if you are born in other countries, or only ones with a biased towards Christianity? Just ask any child living in China what they believe.



posted on Sep, 22 2008 @ 01:01 PM
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reply to post by TruthParadox
 


First of all, I really don't agree with the whole 'religion is decided by geography' argument. This is a typical Dawkins-style canard. I'm not going to get derailed on this topic but many things will show this line of thinking to be erroneous for the most part. People (world wide) are constantly converting to religions they were not born into or leaving the faith of their parents.

Anyways, I explained this in another thread. There are two ways to approach Jesus:

The easy way: Asking and receiving (child like faith).
The more difficult way: Seeking and finding (investigation upon the evidence).

Both ways are possible but Jesus encourages us to do it the easy way. To trust Him. The best I can explain this would be like a spouse having faith in their spouse's fidelity. When a marriage (or relationship for that matter) is new, you take your significant other's fidelity much on faith. As time progresses and you know your partner more and more and you see that they are honorable, the more you will have faith in their fidelity.

Jesus is faithful. Always. The more intimate I become with Him, the more I realize exactly how faithful He is. He validates His faithfulness to me every single day. This is where the 'sheeple' accusation often comes in but so be it. I'm a sheep for Jesus and feel blessed to be because my shepherd is the good shepherd who laid down His life for this sheep.

We are Biblically encouraged to question, research, dig, review, compare, discern, reason, and come to our own conclusion. All of these concepts are 100% scriptural. But Jesus still says the easy way is child-like belief. And of course that is true and this has been proven to me by my own conversion route. I dug, researched, resisted, read, reviewed, tested, discerned before I took the leap. If I had trusted Jesus in the beginning, my road never would have been so long and hard.

And it had nothing to do with geography.



posted on Sep, 22 2008 @ 01:22 PM
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Originally posted by Convex

Originally posted by JaxonRoberts
Not so much the dating, but the authors of them. Among them; The Apostle Thomas (of doubting fame), Mary Magdeline & The Apostle Philip.


yes, but then that brings up the question of if it was really THEM as original authors. if we don't have surviving manuscripts that date to the period when they lived, and all of them having written nothing else, how can we know for sure it wasn't written in the 2nd century and their name tagged on to it to lend it more authenticity?


That's why scholars dispute them. But they could be used as possible evidence as to his existance.



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