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The Evidence For Jesus' Existence Is Nothing But Hearsay

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posted on Sep, 18 2008 @ 02:50 PM
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Originally posted by Bombeni
Now you've really lost me. Did you ever have a dog in this fight or what?


my "dog" is the truth, that's all.




posted on Sep, 18 2008 @ 03:04 PM
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Israel Archaeologists Find Rare 'Jesus Coins'

July 7, 1999

JERUSALEM - One-thousand-year-old coins found near the Sea of Galilee bear the likeness of Jesus and have Greek inscriptions praising him, Israeli archaeologists announced on Wednesday.

The coins were unearthed in October in archaeological excavations at the site of ancient Tiberias in northern Israel but only during a cleaning of the find last month did archaeologists discover the image of Jesus on 58 of the 82 coins.

Some coins also bore Greek inscriptions such as "Jesus the Messiah, the King of Kings," and "Jesus, the Messiah, the Victor."

"This is the largest collection of these types of coins. They are very rare," said archaeologist Yizhar Hirschfeld, who co-directed the excavations.

Archaeologists also found many types of bronze utensils dating from the 10th and 11th centuries, when the Islamic Fatimid ruled the region.

Hirschfeld said the coins were probably brought from Constantinople to Tiberias by Christian pilgrims.

"We know Tiberias was a mixed city, where Jews, Moslems and Christians all lived together. Tiberias was a pilgrimage site." Hirschfeld said.

Archaeologists found the coins and other objects in three large clay pots hidden under the floor of a structure. The Crusaders destroyed ancient Tiberias at the end of the 11th century but the invaders did not discover the coin hoard.
uts.cc.utexas.edu...


LiveScience's Image of the Day
The 'Jesus' Coin
Thursday July 28, 2005

(PICTURE AT LINK)
This "Jesus coin" was dug up during excavations of Tiberias, an ancient town located along the coast of the Sea of Galilee in present-day Israel.

The town was named in honor of the Roman Emperor Tiberius and was built by Herod Antipas, a son of Herod the Great, during a time when Jesus was still just a teenager.

Tiberias has been popular with tourists and pilgrims for more than 2,000 years. In Roman times, visitors arrived from all over the ancient world to enjoy its 17 natural mineral springs. The town is also close to the city where Mary Magdalene was believed to be born and the site where Jesus is supposed to have fed a crowd of thousands with just a couple of fish and a few loaves of bread.

This coin is believed to have been brought to Tiberias from Constantinople where it was minted by a Christian pilgrim around the 11th century. It's backside bears the inscription "Jesus Christ King of Kings."

More Jesus coins were found inside a row of shops, along with oil lamps, glass and stone vessels, jewelry and frescoes.
www.livescience.com...

[edit on 18-9-2008 by Simplynoone]



posted on Sep, 18 2008 @ 03:05 PM
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Originally posted by AshleyD
Nope. I do believe there are some problems/arguments concerning a world wide flood. However, the objections taken from those ex quotes were so silly and contained none of the 'tough' ones.


Silly enough for you to make silly arguments for which you have no evidence?


Originally posted by AshleyD

Yet somehow the dinasaur bones survived, huh? Your theory makes no sense. The flood then should have left no record of dinasaurs, especially since they were here far before the flood.


Many bones survived- not just dinosaur. How on earth does this contradict the flood account when many flood geologists even believe the massive fossils are actually evidence of a world wide catastrophe?


What I was saying is that we have dinosaur bones, but we do not have a record of a global flood. If dinosaur bones can be found, which are millions of years older than the supposed flood, then how much easier would it be to find evidence of a flood? There would be bones found of animals that had not yet gone through micro evolution, as you state. Then they would date it to 6000 years ago (I believe that is the supposed time of Noahs flood), and you would have a case.


Originally posted by AshleyD

I guess you couldn't come up with anything for this one. There is no answer because the flood did not happen.


LOL! Back at the 'you didn't answer because you didn't know' routine. No, it was because it was so silly. I simply don't see how short lived species would have posed any problem on the ark, especially the species you used as an example and the problem they faced- water. As if there was any shortage of water at this time.


How is it silly? Read it again.


How did short-lived species survive? Adult mayflies on the ark would have died in a few days, and the larvae of many mayflies require shallow fresh running water. Many other insects would face similar problems.


So they gather two of each animal on the ark. Noah takes up bug catching for a year, his doctor said it would be good for his heart. Great. So God said to bring a male and a female of each animal. Great. So he brings a male and female mayfly, and according to you (as this would have to be the case) he knows exactly how to care for each animal, even though this is a ridiculous claim, I will accept it for the sake of argument. So he brings a male and female mayfly on the ark. They die in a matter of days if they're lucky, hours if they're not lucky. Now it's likely that Mr. and Mrs. Mayfly had a little lovin' while Noah wasn't looking. So before they die, they have larvae.



Eggs are laid on the surface of lakes or streams, and sink to the bottom. Naiads moult 20 to 50 times over a period of a few months up to year, depending on the species.[2] The naiads live primarily in streams under rocks, decaying vegetation, or in the sediment.
...Most species feed on algae or diatoms, but there are a few predatory species.


Now, according to you, Noah would of had to get a container of some sort, fill it with the right type of water, recreate a habitat that was just perfect for the larvae to not die, find the algae for the little guy to eat and put the right amount in the container. And then go through a similar ritual to recreate a habitat for many other insects aswell.

Really?
You honestly think this to be a likely scenario?
... It just baffles me how someone could actually believe what would have been required in order for the story of Noah's Ark to be true.

Aside from this, do you realize how hard it would be to care for 5 animals, let alone thousands? A full team of zoologists who knew what they were doing could not pull this off, and you think it logical that an old man and 7 of his family members could? Seriously? If he did nothing else but care for the animals, and even if he knew exactly how to care for them, it would be impossible. If they did nothing else but empty the 'doo-doo' from the ark, they would be busy all day running back and forth (hey that's actually a rather amusing visual).


Originally posted by AshleyD

Again, the argument is not that all the fish survived, it is that if there WAS a flood, then many fish would NOT be here today, due to the mixing of fresh water and salt water as whole. You can not deny this fact, you can only dodge it.


Not going to deny or dodge. That all seems like adaptations to me but you claim 'ALL' micro takes 'millions of years' (scientifically false) so there is no answer you would accept.


So then you believe that these fish could survive in fresh water AND salt water before the flood, and then regressed to only being able to survive in fresh water? For such adaptation to occur, doesn't there have to be a need for it to occur? Would there be any need for a fish to take away it's previous tolerance to salt water? I'm not a scientist, but this all sounds fishy to me (pun intended).

Ok this is getting ridiculous. We have gotten way off topic. You believe what you want and I'll believe what I want. Agree to disagree?



posted on Sep, 18 2008 @ 03:07 PM
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Originally posted by Simplynoone
Israel Archaeologists Find Rare 'Jesus Coins'

July 7, 1999

JERUSALEM - One-thousand-year-old coins found near the Sea of Galilee bear the likeness of Jesus and have Greek inscriptions praising him, Israeli archaeologists announced on Wednesday.


nice find, too bad it dates to 1000 years after jesus died.



posted on Sep, 18 2008 @ 03:20 PM
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reply to post by Convex
 


Haha. As if Jesus would have been a symbol to put on a COIN during his lifetime. The same man who tore thru the steps of the Temple as the tax collectors and traders used holy ground to do their business. The same man who told hs disciples to sell all that they have and follow Him.

Yeah makes sense to me.


[edit on 18-9-2008 by Bombeni]



posted on Sep, 18 2008 @ 03:26 PM
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reply to post by Convex
 


www.abovetopsecret.com...

What are your opinions on that- I am truly interested in hearing them. Those look like inscriptions within 10-20 years of Jesus' life. The name of Jesus is too common? The cross inscription could have been the symbol for something else? The match of names to NT personalities is just a coincidence? All that shows is that people believe Jesus existed? Just curious. I won't argue too much- I'm just curious how you would dismiss that.


 



Originally posted by TruthParadox
Silly enough for you to make silly arguments for which you have no evidence?


Now that is pretty unfair and misleading. There is evidence to back up much of what I said and the rest was fighting conjecture with that website's skeptic's conjecture. So there IS evidence- I just didn't see the need for going into such massive detail for something that would never change and something that has already been discussed so many times previously with evidence and for objections that were mostly speculative to begin with. Most of those things have been asked so many times I know it off the top of my head. You're not the first person I have seen do that- assume there is no evidence just because it was not spoon fed to you along with a reply.

Also take a close look at what you originally posted in the ex quotes- much of it was not backed up with a single smidgen of evidence, relied on wild conjecture, and much of your rebuttal to my reply was not backed up with evidence. Some of it was also blatantly false like 'ALL' evidence for micro shows it takes millions of years when experiments have proven the exact opposite. So, please. If you want evidence, it does exist. Don't assume there is none just because I didn't feel like dragging it all out in a thread that isn't even pertaining to this off topic issue and to refute speculation.


Ok this is getting ridiculous. We have gotten way off topic. You believe what you want and I'll believe what I want. Agree to disagree?


lol ok.

[edit on 9/18/2008 by AshleyD]



posted on Sep, 18 2008 @ 03:30 PM
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What I was saying is that we have dinosaur bones, but we do not have a record of a global flood. If dinosaur bones can be found, which are millions of years older than the supposed flood, then how much easier would it be to find evidence of a flood?


There's a ton of evidence for the global flood. Do you actually think that tiny Colorado river formed the grand canyon? -ROFL- it's hilarious how scientists say the canyon on Mars was made by a massive flood but on earth its a tiny river over millions of years. That's called skewing the evidence to meet a preferred conclusion.

You also can't really prove that the dino bones are that old - they use layers of strata which could be the result of same flood instead of millions of years.

Reality Bender 05 3A - A Flood of Evidence" Geological



deny ignorance



posted on Sep, 18 2008 @ 03:30 PM
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Ok so you think that there should be some coins made with Jesus on them at about the same time they were MASS KILLING all of his disciples>
Who controlled the coin making ? Jesus disciples ?I am quite sure they did not have access to that at that time .
Besides you just asked for coins ...I gave you coins ..you didnt say when they had to have been made ..



posted on Sep, 18 2008 @ 03:38 PM
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reply to post by AshleyD
 


Lol, well I do not have evidence because I'm not the one saying that an old man and 7 of his family members made a ship and put thousands of animals in it
. If there is evidence that the continental drift happened in a few hundred or thousand years, then I would love to see it, though I believe this would completely change what we know about plate tectonics.



posted on Sep, 18 2008 @ 03:38 PM
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Originally posted by Bombeni
reply to post by Convex
 


Haha. As if Jesus would have been a symbol to put on a COIN during his lifetime.


not saying it has to be a coin, just that we do in fact have coins from nero. you keep creating these straw man arguments that lead nowhere, out of nothing. i never said i needed a coin as proof, simply that that is what we have as proof of nero.

nero was an emperor, we would expect his image on things. YOU chose nero as a comparison point, not me.

some sort of contemporary writing, inscription, image, document, something from the time of jesus' life would be good enough for me.



posted on Sep, 18 2008 @ 03:45 PM
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Originally posted by Simplynoone

Besides you just asked for coins ...I gave you coins ..you didnt say when they had to have been made ..



i used the coin example because the discussion was about nero, ane emperor and a person we would expect to find engraved on stuff. the coins with nero on them DATE FROM THE TIME OF HIS REIGN and not from, say, a decade ago. there are also CONTEMPORARY inscriptions with nero's name on them from military commanders, etc.

its the original point of this thread, which clearly you didn't bother to read. if we can't count 2nd century historians as evidence surely we can't count 1000 year-later coins.

did this REALLY need to be stated? i won't stoop to refuting these straw man arguments anymore.



posted on Sep, 18 2008 @ 03:52 PM
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Originally posted by AshleyD
ecret.com/forum/thread390563/pg1

What are your opinions on that- I am truly interested in hearing them. Those look like inscriptions within 10-20 years of Jesus' life. The name of Jesus is too common? The cross inscription could have been the symbol for something else? The match of names to NT personalities is just a coincidence? All that shows is that people believe Jesus existed?


i've seen documentaries about this. very exciting find.

i haven't looked into whether its truly christian and that time period or not, but if so then it would be evidence that christianity existed that early, yes. we already know from josephus and others at the time that christians believing jesus existed during that period.

edited - we also know that christians have a history of putting crosses on things they find.....


[edit on 18-9-2008 by Convex]



posted on Sep, 18 2008 @ 03:56 PM
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reply to post by Convex
 


Convex it wouldn't matter. You won't accept the shroud which I don't know either if it is Him, but what, from 2,000 years ago could possibly change the mind of a non-believer?? You are saying a coin, a picture, a paper maybe with the alleged signature of Jesus, any of these things would change you from a non-believer to a believer?? Hmm, somehow I don't think it would be that easy. But you've been quite civil and I for one have enjoyed debating with you. I wish everyone on the opposite side were as civil as you.



posted on Sep, 18 2008 @ 03:56 PM
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reply to post by Convex
 


Thanks for your reply. Again, I won't argue but was just curious.



posted on Sep, 18 2008 @ 04:01 PM
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Originally posted by Bombeni

Convex it wouldn't matter. You won't accept the shroud which I don't know either if it is Him, but what, from 2,000 years ago could possibly change the mind of a non-believer??


a shroud? no i don't accept that. it could be anyone, even if it is a person. and the dating of it has been debated.

but once again, i never said i didn't believe jesus existed. i actually do believe he existed. i just accept there is no evidence.

those things i mentioned i would consider EVIDENCE (which is the topic of this thread).

there is no direct evidence, still, 30 pages later - still no evidence presented. none.



posted on Sep, 18 2008 @ 04:03 PM
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reply to post by Convex
 


Er, except for Nero and Superman, and Hercules, was it? Ok. We'll go with that.




posted on Sep, 18 2008 @ 04:05 PM
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Originally posted by Bombeni
maybe with the alleged signature of Jesus


i never said it had to be a signature. some document mentioning jesus AT THE TIME HE LIVED would be good enough. pilate's letter if it wasn't fake would be evidence, for example.



posted on Sep, 18 2008 @ 04:06 PM
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Originally posted by Bombeni
Er, except for Nero and Superman, and Hercules, was it? Ok. We'll go with that.


i'm not sure what you're replying to unless you edit down the quotation.



posted on Sep, 18 2008 @ 04:11 PM
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Originally posted by Convex

Originally posted by Bombeni
maybe with the alleged signature of Jesus


i never said it had to be a signature. some document mentioning jesus AT THE TIME HE LIVED would be good enough. pilate's letter if it wasn't fake would be evidence, for example.


There are enough documents from His time, and documents written by people who actually KNEW Him on a personal level, to sink a battleship. But according to you we all just pick and choose what we want to believe that was written 2000 years ago. As for me, I'm taking high road.



posted on Sep, 18 2008 @ 04:17 PM
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Just want to add this before I have to go: Why is it, Jesus Christ is the only historical person that anyone, ANYONE, questions existing ?? People don't question Nero, Hitler, Pilate, Caesar, George Washington, Jack The Ripper --- just sweet, kind, merciful, loving, generous, Jesus.

Well it's been real.



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