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The Evidence For Jesus' Existence Is Nothing But Hearsay

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posted on Sep, 17 2008 @ 11:31 AM
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Originally posted by Boywonder13
There is no proof of that. thats just skeptics trying to explain away everything cuz it doesnt fit with their world view.

EVERYTHING ABOUT JESUS MUST BE FAKE, HEARSAY, UNRELIABLE, EVEN NON CHRISTIAN HISTORIANS ARE ALL FRAUDS TOO! is the basic motto it seems.

Don't just eat up the skeptics view, if ur really want to know things u have to look at both sides.


Then what about the similarities between Jesus and Horus? The story of Jesus is based on other myths which have obvious similarities which can not be denied.

What about the parallels between the story of Jesus and battles that the Romans had won over the Jews? There are several instances in the gospels which directly mimic Roman battles over the Jews. More over, they are written in the exact chronological order as happened in history.

Why are the gospels written as fairy tales?

They are written in an omnipotent view such as fairy tales are.
For example, there is a man that visited Jesus and asked him to heal his son (I believe it was his son, but it could have been another family member), then it goes on to say that when he made it back home days later that his son was healed at the exact hour that he had visited Jesus.
Now, is it possible that someone travelled and interviewed him and everyone else that is mentioned in the gospel? It's possible, but it's not probable. There are many instances written in the gospels which would most likely not be known.
Another example is when Jesus was alone on the mount of olives and was praying to God. He was alone, so no one could have known what he said in his prayers, yet his whole conversation is written in the Bible. Is it possible that someone asked him about this? It may be possible, but it wouldn't fit in the context of the story, as directly after this event, he is taken to be crucified. When would anyone have a chance to ask Jesus about this event, and further, when would it have come up in conversation? There are also times when the gospels state what someone is thinking. This is the trait of a story and not a factual account. There are several other things that I could bring up that would not have been written in the context they were if they were eyewitness accounts and not based on hearsay.
Don't get me wrong, this is not the only reason I believe Jesus did not exist, it is simply one of many. There are so many things that point to the story of Jesus being a fabrication.




posted on Sep, 17 2008 @ 11:35 AM
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Originally posted by Boywonder13
Ever heard that it was a "Local Flood"....DOIH

December 25th is a tradition. Whole Earth flood is a tradition.
it was most likely a Local Flood that occured, making it plausible.

Lack of research ftloose.



There could have been a local flood. What I am saying is that the Biblical account could not have been accurate, as the Biblical account states that it was NOT a local flood. It states very clearly that the water was over all the earth. Note that at this time people thought the Earth was flat and that such a scenario was plausible. You see, if the Earth is flat, then the water will eventually role off the sides and the Earth will be dry again. The Earth is not flat. It is not possible for the whole Earth to be flooded. Therefor, the Bible is incorrect, which was the point of my post.



posted on Sep, 17 2008 @ 12:10 PM
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Originally posted by TruthParadox

Then what about the similarities between Jesus and Horus? The story of Jesus is based on other myths which have obvious similarities which can not be denied.

What about the parallels between the story of Jesus and battles that the Romans had won over the Jews? There are several instances in the gospels which directly mimic Roman battles over the Jews. More over, they are written in the exact chronological order as happened in history.

Why are the gospels written as fairy tales?

They are written in an omnipotent view such as fairy tales are.
For example, there is a man that visited Jesus and asked him to heal his son (I believe it was his son, but it could have been another family member), then it goes on to say that when he made it back home days later that his son was healed at the exact hour that he had visited Jesus.
Now, is it possible that someone travelled and interviewed him and everyone else that is mentioned in the gospel? It's possible, but it's not probable. There are many instances written in the gospels which would most likely not be known.
Another example is when Jesus was alone on the mount of olives and was praying to God. He was alone, so no one could have known what he said in his prayers, yet his whole conversation is written in the Bible. Is it possible that someone asked him about this? It may be possible, but it wouldn't fit in the context of the story, as directly after this event, he is taken to be crucified. When would anyone have a chance to ask Jesus about this event, and further, when would it have come up in conversation? There are also times when the gospels state what someone is thinking. This is the trait of a story and not a factual account. There are several other things that I could bring up that would not have been written in the context they were if they were eyewitness accounts and not based on hearsay.
Don't get me wrong, this is not the only reason I believe Jesus did not exist, it is simply one of many. There are so many things that point to the story of Jesus being a fabrication.


#1 Post primary sources that show Jesus and Horus are similar. i would love to see them. Zeitgeist couldnt cough up any, neither has anyone. And many other similarties have been debunked.

#2 The way u explained how the Gospels are written showing many events happening is just like History is written

#3 Paul said he recieved a vision of Jesus, this event could have been revaled too. You pose a good question, i admit.



posted on Sep, 17 2008 @ 12:18 PM
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Originally posted by azureskys
reply to post by Bombeni
 


I think you might be wrong about the murderous statment.

The Only entity on this planet capable of tending the flocks and harvesting the seed,
Is so arrogant, as to assume, that We can define designate and be so audacious, as to know What or who GOD is!!
This entity(Man) Spends his existance, trying to prove or disprove the existance of what he construes to be a GOD.
He lies,steals,kills and worse,to prove his GODs
existance.
He lies,steals,kills and worse,to prove his GOD
is the only One True God.
He lies,steals,kills and worse,to prove that his GOD is, more powerful, more loving, more forgiving
and more Olympian, than the other guys GOD
All the while he destroys the very gift of being the caregivers of the Earth.
"Religon" Is the winner of most murderous


I don't disagree with you, as far as religion itself goes. In fact, Jesus Himself, who was God manifested in the flesh, challenged the "religious" men of His day. There are many references I could list that shows Jesus wasn't a "religious" man.

Jesus said (Matthew 6:5-6): “And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues, and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, they have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray unto thy Father ...”

Please consider that you are "throwing the baby out with the bath water." Jesus didn't come to save the righteous, but rather the lost. We can both reference men all day that professed to be one thing but proved to be something entirely different, since "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23). That is exactly why God provided a ransom for us, an escape. Do you think you are worthy to stand before God on your own? I certainly don't. I want a court-appointed lawyer when my docket is called, "Counselor" Jesus Christ.



posted on Sep, 17 2008 @ 12:48 PM
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reply to post by TruthParadox
 


Regarding Noah...

Looking at it from a volume of water issue, it appears that if ALL of the ice on both caps melted, and filled the seas, that we could expect the following:


If all the icecaps in the world were to melt, sea level would rise about 60-75 meters (200-250 feet).


www.johnstonsarchive.net...

With 250 ft of water, what countries would be gone, and who knows what else.

My Say on Hear Say...

Jesus said to Love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your soul, and that the next command is like it; That we love one another. I believe that to be the Truth. And whether or not, others believe he said it or not, does not take away from the spirit and testimony of those who wrote about him.

Ive come to understand, that we as a people, should practice Love one another in an altruistic nature. That we as a society and race, do what is best for all of us as a whole. In doing so, whether you realize it or not, you honor the teachings of Jesus Christ, and in doing so, perform the will of the Almighty God.

Its been said, that if you tell a lie long enough, that people believe it to be truth. A TruthParadox, which is really a lie. A lie is a lie, and the Truth is the Truth.

Many a good man died a gruesome death with their testimony of Jesus Christ. Not a one of them recanted. There is historical evidence to prove this, and at what point do you realize that men died teaching this. At what point do you realize this:

The Stone the builders rejected becomes the cornerstone.
Anyone who comes against it will be dashed to pieces like pottery,
and anyone on whom it falls will be crushed.

Jesus Christ is that stone. He was rejected, crucified, and his words, as he said will be with us forever. He is the chief cornerstone on which we build the church, and we live our lives.

What I'm telling you isn't hearsay. Its my say. I know this in my heart to be true, both directly, and inspired.

Peace


[edit on 17-9-2008 by HIFIGUY]



posted on Sep, 17 2008 @ 12:54 PM
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Originally posted by Boywonder13
#1 Post primary sources that show Jesus and Horus are similar. i would love to see them. Zeitgeist couldnt cough up any, neither has anyone. And many other similarties have been debunked.


You could have googled for the similarities, but here is a link which makes my point.
members.aol.com...


Originally posted by Boywonder13
#2 The way u explained how the Gospels are written showing many events happening is just like History is written


History is not written as an omnipotent view, but takes facts into account. The Gospels are written as all knowing. Things which the author could not have known and which have no other sources to verify. It is written very similar to stories and folk lore. Now, this alone does not mean that Jesus didn't exist, it's simply something to think about. It raises the question of just how accurate are the gospels, even if you believe in Jesus. Where is the author getting his information? Did he make up the words that Jesus said when he would have no way of knowing what Jesus said? If he did, then what else is fiction? In fact, is there any reason to believe that the whole story is not fiction? I believe there is much more reason to believe that the whole story is fiction rather than fact.


Originally posted by Boywonder13
#3 Paul said he recieved a vision of Jesus, this event could have been revaled too. You pose a good question, i admit.


A good enough explanation for a Christian, but not for an atheist. It still doesn't fit. It seems to me that to accept Jesus' existence, you must have faith. This is fine by me. The only point I am trying to make is that there is no evidence and that there is far more reason to believe that he did not exist. I can never take your faith away nor would I have any reason to do so.



posted on Sep, 17 2008 @ 01:14 PM
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Originally posted by HIFIGUY
reply to post by TruthParadox
 


Looking at it from a volume of water issue, it appears that if ALL of the ice on both caps melted, and filled the seas, that we could expect the following:


If all the icecaps in the world were to melt, sea level would rise about 60-75 meters (200-250 feet).


www.johnstonsarchive.net...

With 250 ft of water, who countries would be gone, and who knows what else.


The Bible states that no mountain was visible due to the water. Mount Ararat has an elevation of 16,946 ft. Sorry, it's just not possible.


Originally posted by HIFIGUY
Ive come to understand, that we as a people, should practice Love one another in an altruistic nature. That we as a society and race, do what is best for all of us as a whole. In doing so, whether you realize it or not, you honor the teachings of Jesus Christ, and in doing so, perform the will of the Almighty God.


I agree that we should love one another. I have never disagreed with that. I simply disagree that Jesus ever existed. There is no contemporary evidence that he did.


Originally posted by HIFIGUY
Its been said, that if you tell a lie long enough, that people believe it to be truth. A TruthParadox, which is really a lie. A lie is a lie, and the Truth is the Truth.


My name is derived from the fact that our universe is a paradox, and that whatever brought us here is based on a paradox according to our minds. We can not comprehend the nature of our universe or the nature of infinity. We try to put a name to that which we can not understand. A name such as God. Such complexities can not be described by humanistic means.
The truth IS a paradox as seen by the fact that we can not comprehend how our universe came to be.
Many religions claim to know, but they do not have facts. I don't claim to have the facts, just that I am open to the truth. Do not blame me simply because I require more than assumption for my beliefs.


Originally posted by HIFIGUY
Many a good man died a gruesome death with their testimony of Jesus Christ. Not a one of them recanted. There is historical evidence to prove this, and at what point do you realize that men died teaching this.


Many people have died for a number of beliefs. It does not make them true. There are too many flaws in the Bible for it to be the word of a perfect omnipotent God.



posted on Sep, 17 2008 @ 01:36 PM
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Originally posted by TruthParadox

You could have googled for the similarities, but here is a link which makes my point.
members.aol.com...



i want sources, this site gives NONE whatsoever.



posted on Sep, 17 2008 @ 02:12 PM
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Originally posted by Boywonder13

Originally posted by TruthParadox

You could have googled for the similarities, but here is a link which makes my point.
members.aol.com...



i want sources, this site gives NONE whatsoever.



Hmm... My bad...
After doing some research, it seems that there really isn't any evidence for these claims. I've read so many sites which list the similarities and act as though it is fact that I never questioned the validity of the information. Just goes to show that misinformation can spread like wildfire on the internet. I don't want to be part of that wildfire though, so I recant my previous statements about Horus.

However, I still believe this to be a likely scenario. If it IS a coincidence, then it's one Hell of a coincidence. Not to mention that it makes sense of many questions concerning the gospels.



posted on Sep, 17 2008 @ 02:50 PM
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Originally posted by TruthParadox

Hmm... My bad...
After doing some research, it seems that there really isn't any evidence for these claims. I've read so many sites which list the similarities and act as though it is fact that I never questioned the validity of the information. Just goes to show that misinformation can spread like wildfire on the internet. I don't want to be part of that wildfire though, so I recant my previous statements about Horus.

However, I still believe this to be a likely scenario. If it IS a coincidence, then it's one Hell of a coincidence. Not to mention that it makes sense of many questions concerning the gospels.


I appluad your correction

and to have made mistakes.

and i did a google search and found a refuation/review of the book here:

www.tektonics.org...

A qoute from it says,"This is the sort of thing peer-reviewed periodicals like the Journal of Romans Studies would never put up with, but it gets in print anyway"

Skeptics have a billion different views on early christianity/Jesus. but most historians do agree that Jesus lived, read books such as "Historical Jesus" EP Sanders, or Jesus Outside the New Testament etc.

Its interesting that skeptics move from theory to theory, after each one is debunked, as ive noticed in your case.

It is obvious that there is a movement to discredit christianity (Zeitgeist, Lost Tomb of Jesus) but even atheist scholars dont take these seriously.

Truth Paradox im just wondering if youre sure Jesus didnt exist? what is your view on him


im really interested bro.

[edit on 17-9-2008 by Boywonder13

[edit on 17-9-2008 by Boywonder13]



posted on Sep, 17 2008 @ 05:08 PM
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Originally posted by TruthParadox
The Bible states that no mountain was visible due to the water. Mount Ararat has an elevation of 16,946 ft. Sorry, it's just not possible.


Truth Paradox- didn't you admit to being an ex Christian? Then how could you possibly not know what the Bible also says about this? It is clearly written that the earth went through MASSIVE upheaval and the 'mountains were raised' during/after the flood. Not to mention the wording of the passage infers tectonic plate shifting. The earth did not have the same elevation levels in antediluvian times. 100% Biblical.



posted on Sep, 17 2008 @ 05:26 PM
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Originally posted by shearder

Originally posted by MorningStar8741
Really? where is this ark? I have seen it claimed to be found in 4 different places and yet there is no actual piece of the ark or any scietific agreement of ANY ark. Care to provide the proof of that? And again, it would not prove Jesus exsisted though would it?


Simply put - No - i won't provide proof. In terms of Jesus, it just, once again, enforces what is mentioned in the bible is backed up by archaeological evidence. But again, Noah may not have existed. It may have been Long John Silver's boat!


There is enough proof of one location being correct.


Yay!!!!! You can prove a place exsists now that used to exsist a long time ago. Congratulations. Now if only someone could prove Jesus as well, now that would really be something.



posted on Sep, 17 2008 @ 05:31 PM
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Originally posted by shearder

Originally posted by azureskys
Church,Religion,Faith, Belief, the Bible, (or any other written Religious script), IS NOT criteria for the truth !!!!


Cool. Point taken.

Glad that's now out of the way.

Any thing else?


Wow, you sure get snippy when people prove you wrong. These short snarky posts telling people that what they have added to this thread is worthless and off topic seems rather funny considering how many posts you wasted telling us that proof of jesus was to come, only to change the subject to not proving that Noah ever exsisted either. You stray off topic when cornered and get rude when corrected. You should be happy people are taking the time to add anything to this pointless thread anyway.

Can you prove Jesus archeologically?

Jesus, not a guy who wrote about Jesus. My neighbor writes about Jesus. He has also written about my street. Guess what, the street really is there, so Jesus must be true too? Anyway, can you?

Can you provide the proof of Noahs boat, since you went off topic to bring it up, I am greatly interested. If there is proof of Noah's boat, wel that changes lots of things. I will wait here.



posted on Sep, 17 2008 @ 05:34 PM
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Originally posted by Bombeni


MY REPLY:
Hercules, or Superman, another "figure" referenced earlier, doesn't speak to my heart. Most importantly they didn't suffer and die for me,. God so loved us that He manifested Himself in the flesh and suffered that His children would not perish but have eternal life with Him. And many people spit on that gift today just as many did in the days that He walked the earth. But not a one of you who pretends to have it all figured out, has anything on the Bible. Jesus, His Disciples and the Prophets of old, through the Divine Inspiration of God, recorded it ALL before it happened, including the blasphemy being written here today.

[edit on 17-9-2008 by Bombeni]


That is insane logic. To say Jesus is more real because the fake stories about him say that he died for your sins? So the fiction about the fake people must be more compelling for it to be credible?

By the way, I believe superman has offered his life for all of us numerous times but could not die. As well, eventually they found a way to do that too and did eventually kill him off. Has he come back? You betcha. Hell he came back as 4 different supermen at first. Jesus only came back as 3. Superman and Jesus, both died and returned all out of love for Earthlings. That confirms it all for me.



posted on Sep, 17 2008 @ 05:38 PM
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Originally posted by Boywonder13

Ever heard that it was a "Local Flood"....DOIH

December 25th is a tradition. Whole Earth flood is a tradition.
it was most likely a Local Flood that occured, making it plausible.

Lack of research ftloose.



Hmmm, then I guess that would mean that the story in the Bible saying that the entire world was covered to wipe out humanity and that Noah did gather every species (no evolution, what we have is what we had) and then his 3 sons went out to repopulate the world is all a lie then huh? Well I wonder what else this book has lied about?

P.S. Also explain how 3 single men repopulate anything.

[edit on 17-9-2008 by MorningStar8741]



posted on Sep, 17 2008 @ 05:38 PM
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reply to post by MorningStar8741
 


If you can't tell the difference between Superman and Jesus, then I don't think there is much hope for you on an IQ test, if you know what I'm saying.



posted on Sep, 17 2008 @ 05:41 PM
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Originally posted by Boywonder13


Skeptics have a billion different views on early christianity/Jesus. but most historians do agree that Jesus lived, read books such as "Historical Jesus" EP Sanders, or Jesus Outside the New Testament etc.



Most? really most? Can you first back that up, and can you also clarify how many of these people ALSO believed this Jesus was the son of God and performed miracles. I cannot help but think you are Foxisizing up the facts here.



posted on Sep, 17 2008 @ 05:45 PM
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reply to post by MorningStar8741
 


There were more people than Noah and his sons on the ark, 8 in all.
Their WIVES as well!



posted on Sep, 17 2008 @ 05:45 PM
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Originally posted by MorningStar8741
Most? really most? Can you first back that up, and can you also clarify how many of these people ALSO believed this Jesus was the son of God and performed miracles. I cannot help but think you are Foxisizing up the facts here.


He's not 'foxisizing' up the facts. He is actually correct. Someone once asked me the same thing and I posted statistics. MOST scholars and historians acknowledge Jesus as a historical figure. The Christians accept Him for who He claimed to be and the secular historians and scholars differentiate between what is referred to as 'The Historical Jesus' and 'The Jesus of Faith.'

I'm too lazy to look it all up again but I've posted the information on ATS before along with a sample of names of secular scholars who acknowledge Jesus historicity but not His divine claims.



posted on Sep, 17 2008 @ 05:45 PM
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Originally posted by AshleyD
reply to post by MorningStar8741
 


If you can't tell the difference between Superman and Jesus, then I don't think there is much hope for you on an IQ test, if you know what I'm saying.


I am sorry, do you really think that I do not know the difference? One is an imaginary figure that lots of people spend money worshipping because of the good things he represents. One is an imaginary figure that people spend money worshipping for fear of everlasting punishment. Close enough?

Look, I was just rebutting the simple statement that the difference between Hercules, Superman, and Jesus is that Jesus died for us. I was just pointing out that there is just as credible a story that Superman did the same. There seems to be as much actual evidence for both. The difference is that when you call superman fake and then prove he is, it does not completely shake the foundation of his fans. They know it and accept it. They do not lash out in defensive fear like so many here have.



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