The Evidence For Jesus' Existence Is Nothing But Hearsay

Originally posted by mhc_70Flavius, Philo, the New Testament, and the New Testament Apocrypha, Thats all that we have of Pilate, did the man even exist?

en.wikipedia.org...

Proof that there was a Pontius Pilate. Archealogical proof, There is NO dispute over the "Pilate Stone" or the existence of Pilate.

Though these "writings" are most likely forgeries. Pilate was a real man.

Originally posted by Iasion

NOW - I would like YOU to explain what stops there being records of Jesus in Jerusalem or Alexandria or Tyre or Bethlehem or Galilee or Nazareth or Jaffa or Acre ?

Iasion

- "As far as the historians of the day were concerned, he was just a "blip" on the screen. Jesus was not considered to be historically significant by historians of his time. He did not address the Roman Senate, or write extensive Greek philosophical treatises; He never travelled outside of the regions of Palestine, and was not a member of any known political party. It is only because Christians later made Jesus a "celebrity" that He became known. Sanders, comparing Jesus to Alexander, notes that the latter "so greatly altered the political situation in a large part of the world that the main outline of his public life is very well known indeed. Jesus did not change the social, political and economic circumstances in Palestine (Note: It was left for His followers to do that!) ..the superiority of evidence for Jesus is seen when we ask what he thought." [Sand.HistF, 3] Harris adds that "Roman writers could hardly be expected to have foreseen the subsequent influence of Christianity on the Roman Empire and therefore to have carefully documented" Christian origins. How were they to know that this minor Nazarene prophet would cause such a fuss? "

- "Jesus was executed as a criminal, providing him with the ultimate marginality. This was one reason why historians would have ignored Jesus. He suffered the ultimate humiliation, both in the eyes of Jews (Deut. 21:23 - Anyone hung on a tree is cursed!) and the Romans (He died the death of slaves and rebels.). On the other hand, Jesus was a minimal threat compared to other proclaimed "Messiahs" of the time. Rome had to call out troops to quell the disturbances caused by the unnamed Egyptian referenced in the Book of Acts [Sand.HistF, 51] . In contrast, no troops were required to suppress Jesus' followers. To the Romans, the primary gatekeepers of written history at the time, Jesus during His own life would have been no different than thousands of other everyday criminals that were crucified. "

----
" I should point out that most of the records of the past - millins and millions of records, of every period of the past--no longer survive but remain lost to posterity. This includes the records of Jesus' life and his followers." - Bart D. Ehrman (Agnostic New Testament Scholar) Truth adn Fiction in the Da Vinci Cdoe, pg. xxii (intro).

Originally posted by shearder
I will humour you some more Iasion:
I said:

Originally posted by shearder
the evidence found at archaeological digs supports, ACCURATELY, information in the bible. Or, possibly those archaeologists were also smoking something? Same stuff as the guys writing the bible?

And YOU responded with:

Originally posted by Iasion
There is NO archeological evidence for Jesus or the Gospels events.
None.
It's you with the smoking problem, methinks.
Iasion

I guess I will put you out of your misery as you obviously have not looked closely enough!! Can i just confirm what you said before i go further?

Iasion said:

"There is NO archeological evidence for Jesus or the Gospels events. None."

And then I can play this hand:

In John 5:1-15 Jesus heals a man at the Pool of Bethesda. John gave the precise location and a description of the pool as having 5 porticoes (pillars):

John 5:1 --- After this there was a feast of the Jews, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. Now there is a pool at the Sheep Gate at Jerusalem, which is called in Hebrew Bethesda, having five porches. In these lay a great multitude of those who were sick, of blind, lame, withered, waiting for the moving of the water. For an angel went down at a certain time into the pool and troubled the water. Then whoever first stepped in after the troubling of the water was made whole of whatever disease he had. And a certain man was there, who had an infirmity thirty-eight years. When Jesus saw him lying, and knowing that he had spent much time, He said to him, Do you desire to be made whole? The infirm man answered Him, Sir, when the water is troubled, I have no one to put me into the pool. But while I am coming, another steps down before me. Jesus says to him, Rise, take up your bed and walk.

For a long time, skeptics cited this as an example of John being inaccurate because no such place had been found....

The fact is, John did not need to describe the details of the pool (with its 5 pillars) in his gospel, and the fact that he did, made his account vulnerable to contest.

But archaeology has recently vindicated John's testimony and accuracy

You may want to also see it? Yes?

Also, why in the gospels do they speak the prophesy of the destruction of Jerusalem, but not the fulfillment of this prophecy.

Must be beacuse they were written prior to 70AD when that prophesy was fulfilled.

Originally posted by Boywonder13

Originally posted by mhc_70Flavius, Philo, the New Testament, and the New Testament Apocrypha, Thats all that we have of Pilate, did the man even exist?

en.wikipedia.org...

Proof that there was a Pontius Pilate. Archealogical proof, There is NO dispute over the "Pilate Stone" or the existence of Pilate.

Though these "writings" are most likely forgeries. Pilate was a real man.

Thankyou, we now agree that Pilate did in fact exist.

Can you direct me to an ancient text, that has information about Pilate, by an author not labeled a forgerer in this thread?

Originally posted by mhc_70
Thankyou, we now agree that Pilate did in fact exist.

Can you direct me to an ancient text, that has information about Pilate, by an author not labeled a forgerer in this thread?

"On one occasion, when the soldiers under his command came to Jerusalem, he made them bring their ensigns with them, upon which were the usual images of the emperor. Roman battle standards were considered idolatrous by the Jews. The ensigns were brought in secretly by night, but their presence was soon discovered. Immediately multitudes of excited Jews rushed to Caesarea to petition him for the removal of the obnoxious ensigns. He ignored them for five days, but the next day he admitted the Jews to hear their complaint. He had them surrounded with soldiers and threatened them with instant death unless they ceased to trouble him with the matter. The Jews then threw themselves to the ground and bared their necks, declaring that they preferred death to the violation of their laws. Pilate, unwilling to kill so many, succumbed and removed the ensigns."

Josephus, Wars of the Jews2.9.2-3; Antiquities of the Jews 18.55-59 (Combined Summary)

Originally posted by Boywonder13

Originally posted by mhc_70
Thankyou, we now agree that Pilate did in fact exist.

Can you direct me to an ancient text, that has information about Pilate, by an author not labeled a forgerer in this thread?

"On one occasion, when the soldiers under his command came to Jerusalem, he made them bring their ensigns with them, upon which were the usual images of the emperor. Roman battle standards were considered idolatrous by the Jews. The ensigns were brought in secretly by night, but their presence was soon discovered. Immediately multitudes of excited Jews rushed to Caesarea to petition him for the removal of the obnoxious ensigns. He ignored them for five days, but the next day he admitted the Jews to hear their complaint. He had them surrounded with soldiers and threatened them with instant death unless they ceased to trouble him with the matter. The Jews then threw themselves to the ground and bared their necks, declaring that they preferred death to the violation of their laws. Pilate, unwilling to kill so many, succumbed and removed the ensigns."

Josephus, Wars of the Jews2.9.2-3; Antiquities of the Jews 18.55-59 (Combined Summary)

Josephus Flavius? According to Iasion, he is a forgery.

Originally posted by Iasion
There is NO archeological evidence for Jesus or the Gospels events.
None.
It's you with the smoking problem, methinks.
Iasion

Mr. Iason i am intersted in what archaelogical evidence, you would like?

Originally posted by mhc_70

Originally posted by Boywonder13

Originally posted by mhc_70
Thankyou, we now agree that Pilate did in fact exist.

Can you direct me to an ancient text, that has information about Pilate, by an author not labeled a forgerer in this thread?

"On one occasion, when the soldiers under his command came to Jerusalem, he made them bring their ensigns with them, upon which were the usual images of the emperor. Roman battle standards were considered idolatrous by the Jews. The ensigns were brought in secretly by night, but their presence was soon discovered. Immediately multitudes of excited Jews rushed to Caesarea to petition him for the removal of the obnoxious ensigns. He ignored them for five days, but the next day he admitted the Jews to hear their complaint. He had them surrounded with soldiers and threatened them with instant death unless they ceased to trouble him with the matter. The Jews then threw themselves to the ground and bared their necks, declaring that they preferred death to the violation of their laws. Pilate, unwilling to kill so many, succumbed and removed the ensigns."

Josephus, Wars of the Jews2.9.2-3; Antiquities of the Jews 18.55-59 (Combined Summary)

Josephus Flavius? According to Iasion, he is a forgery.

Josephus!?? Iason said that

His writings gave us a wealth of info into 1st century jews. He was a Jewish/Roman historian.

The only dispute was over a passage that mentions Jesus,... This passage is not disputed neither is Pilate's existence.

en.wikipedia.org...



[edit on 15-9-2008 by Boywonder13]

[edit on 15-9-2008 by Boywonder13]

[edit on 15-9-2008 by Boywonder13]

Originally posted by Boywonder13

Josephus, Wars of the Jews2.9.2-3; Antiquities of the Jews 18.55-59

It is interesting to note that when those words are copy n pasted into a google search only 2 links are found. 1 no longer exists, the other starts out like this...

"Pilate" redirects here. For other uses, see Pilate (disambiguation). Ecce Homo ("Behold the Man"), Antonio Ciseri's depiction of Pontius Pilate presenting a scourged Jesus to the people of Jerusalem. Pontius Pilate (pronounced /ˈpɔnʧəs ˈpaɪlət/; Latin: Pontius Pilatus, Greek: Πόντιος Πιλᾶτος) was the Procurator (governor) of the Roman Iudaea province from 26 until 36. He is typically known as the sixth Procurator of Iudea, but some sources cite him as the fifth.[citation needed] In modern times he is best known as the man who presided over the trial of Jesus and supposedly ordered his crucifixion. Pilate appears in all four canonical Christian Gospels. Mark, demonstrating Jesus to be innocent of plotting against Rome, portrays Pilate as extremely reluctant to execute Jesus, blaming the Jewish hierarchy for his death.[1] In Matthew, Pilate washes his hands of Jesus and reluctantly sends him to his death.[1] In Luke, Pilate not only agrees that Jesus did not conspire against Rome but King Herod also finds nothing treasonous in Jesus' actions.[1] In John, Jesus makes no claim to be the Son of Man or the Messiah to Pilate or to the Sanhedrin.[1] Pilate's biographical details before and after his appointment to Iudaea are unknown, but have been supplied by tradition, which include the detail that his wife's name was Claudia (she is canonized as a saint in the Greek Orthodox Church) and competing legends of his birthplace. Pilate's term serves as a reliable historical benchmark for Jesus' death.[citation needed] Contents 1 Birthplace 2 Titles and duties 3 Pilate according to early Jewish accounts 4 The "Pilate Inscription" or "Pilate Stone" from Caesarea 5 Pilate in the canonical Gospel accounts 5.1 Responsibility for Jesus' death 6 Pilate in the Apocrypha 6.1 Gospel of Peter 6.2 Acts of Pilate 6.3 Minor Pilate literature 7 Veneration 8 Pilate in later fiction 9 In Music 10 References 11 External links // Pilate's date and place of birth are unknown. Fortingall in Perthshire, Scotland[2]; Tarraco (now Tarragona) in Spain, and Forchheim and its suburb Hausen in Germany have all developed local legends.[citation needed] The author of the Encyclopaedia Britannica 1911 article noted that Pontius suggested a Samnite origin—among the Pontii—and his cognomen Pileatus, if it derived from the pileus or cap of liberty, descent from a freedman. He is commonly believed to be descended from Gaius Pontius, a Samnite General. Pontius Pilate's title was traditionally thought to have been procurator, since Tacitus speaks of him as such. However, an inscription on a limestone block known as Pilate Stone — apparently a dedication to Tiberius Caesar Augustus — that was discovered in 1961 in the ruins of an amphitheater at Caesarea Maritima refers to Pilate as "Prefect of Iudaea". Archaeologists believe it to be genuine and settles the argument about the historical accuracy of Pontius Pilate's existence. The title used by the governors of the region varied over the period of the New Testament. When Samaria, Judea proper and Idumea were first amalgamated into the Roman Iudaea Province[3], from 6 to the outbreak of the First Jewish Revolt in 66, officials of the Equestrian order (the lower rank of governors) governed. They held the Roman title of prefect until Herod Agrippa I was named King of the Jews by Claudius. After Herod Agrippa's death in 44, when Iudaea reverted to direct Roman rule, the governor held the title procurator

Also the writings of Pilates wife Claudia verify the story told in the gospels.

Originally posted by Boywonder13

Originally posted by mhc_70

Originally posted by Boywonder13

Originally posted by mhc_70
Thankyou, we now agree that Pilate did in fact exist.

Can you direct me to an ancient text, that has information about Pilate, by an author not labeled a forgerer in this thread?

"On one occasion, when the soldiers under his command came to Jerusalem, he made them bring their ensigns with them, upon which were the usual images of the emperor. Roman battle standards were considered idolatrous by the Jews. The ensigns were brought in secretly by night, but their presence was soon discovered. Immediately multitudes of excited Jews rushed to Caesarea to petition him for the removal of the obnoxious ensigns. He ignored them for five days, but the next day he admitted the Jews to hear their complaint. He had them surrounded with soldiers and threatened them with instant death unless they ceased to trouble him with the matter. The Jews then threw themselves to the ground and bared their necks, declaring that they preferred death to the violation of their laws. Pilate, unwilling to kill so many, succumbed and removed the ensigns."

Josephus, Wars of the Jews2.9.2-3; Antiquities of the Jews 18.55-59 (Combined Summary)

Josephus Flavius? According to Iasion, he is a forgery.

Josephus!?? Iason said that

His writings gave us a wealth of info into 1st century jews. He was a Jewish/Roman historian.

The only dispute was over a passage that mentions Jesus,... This passage is not disputed neither is Pilate's existence.

en.wikipedia.org...

The absurdity of the skeptics in this thread is similar to those in mainstream historical society. The only basis for the disputes is because the disputed texts authenticate the life of Jesus, so in the skeptics eyes they must be fake.

If the author is not speaking of Jesus then it is accepted as history by the skeptics.

Originally posted by mhc_70

Originally posted by Boywonder13

Josephus, Wars of the Jews2.9.2-3; Antiquities of the Jews 18.55-59

It is interesting to note that when those words are copy n pasted into a google search only 2 links are found. 1 no longer exists, the other starts out like this...

If u noticed i said that that was a combined summary of two passages. Heres both passages seperate:

www.earlyjewishwritings.com...

"On the next day Pilate sat upon his tribunal, in the open market-place, and called to him the multitude, as desirous to give them an answer; and then gave a signal to the soldiers, that they should all by agreement at once encompass the Jews with their weapons; so the band of soldiers stood round about the Jews in three ranks. The Jews were under the utmost consternation at that unexpected sight. Pilate also said to them that they should be cut in pieces, unless they would admit of Caesar's images, and gave intimation to the soldiers to draw their naked swords. Hereupon the Jews, as it were at one signal, fell down in vast numbers together, and exposed their necks bare, and cried out that they were sooner ready to be slain, than that their law should be transgressed. Hereupon Pilate was greatly surprised at their prodigious superstition, and gave order that the ensigns should be presently carried out of Jerusalem. " War, Book 2, Chapter 9, #3

www.perseus.tufts.edu...

"BUT now Pilate, the procurator of Judea, removed the army from Cesarea to Jerusalem, to take their winter quarters there, in order to abolish the Jewish laws. So he introduced Caesar's effigies, which were upon the ensigns, and brought them into the city; whereas our law forbids us the very making of images; on which account the former procurators were wont to make their entry into the city with such ensigns as had not those ornaments. Pilate was the first who brought those images to Jerusalem, and set them up there; which was done without the knowledge of the people, because it was done in the night time; but as soon as they knew it, they came in multitudes to Cesarea, and interceded with Pilate many days that he would remove the images; and when he would not grant their requests, because it would tend to the injury of Caesar, while yet they persevered in their request, on the sixth day he ordered his soldiers to have their weapons privately, while he came and sat upon his judgment-seat, which seat was so prepared in the open place of the city, that it concealed the army that lay ready to oppress them; and when the Jews petitioned him again, he gave a signal to the soldiers to encompass them routed, and threatened that their punishment should be no less than immediate death, unless they would leave off disturbing him, and go their ways home. But they threw themselves upon the ground, and laid their necks bare, and said they would take their death very willingly, rather than the wisdom of their laws should be transgressed; upon which Pilate was deeply affected with their firm resolution to keep their laws inviolable, and presently commanded the images to be carried back from Jerusalem to Cesarea....(there is more to passage, but wont paste, as it wont fit in post)

Originally posted by mhc_70

The absurdity of the skeptics in this thread is similar to those in mainstream historical society. The only basis for the disputes is because the disputed texts authenticate the life of Jesus, so in the skeptics eyes they must be fake.

If the author is not speaking of Jesus then it is accepted as history by the skeptics.

Seriously, its as if they want a Non-Christian to report that Jesus is the Son of God, which ofcourse is absurd, for the writer would most likely have become a christian if they indeed have believed and perceived it, and seen what Jesus is said to have done.

Muhammed was an Arab man, who lived 1400 years ago.

To realize his desire to rule over people, and satisfy his above-average sexual desires, he lied to everyone that he was receiving revelations from God.

Comparing to his surrounding people who were immoral enough to bury their infant daughers, he was a relatively clever guy, intelligent, but evil to the core. Studying Islam almost makes one think Mohammed was the devil himself which he kept talking of.

From a muslim perspective, Mohammed was a kind truthful man, and the true last prophet of God.
Read the Quran and Hadith and decide for yourself.

This is all there is to him. He was an evil liar and a violent man with a larger than usual sexual appetite. He was a pedophile, because when he was 54 years old, he married a 9 year old little girl. He was old enough to be her grandfather.

If Mohammed was truelly a prophet, he would have set better examples.
If Allah was a true god, he would know that Mohammed would be called a pedophile in the future. How could Allah allow his last messenger to be called a pedophile in the future? Was it necessary for Mohammed to have married a 9 year old little girl and result in being called a pedophile later on?

Character defects like these and many other factors, such as the absence of miracles in Quran disqualify Mohammed as being the last messenger of God.

www.apostatesofislam.com...

Good read. You really expect us to believe satan, er, I mean "Allah" wanted a pedophile as his holy prophet????



[edit on 15-9-2008 by NOTurTypical]

Originally posted by Boywonder13

Mr. Iason i am intersted in what archaelogical evidence, you would like?

That, Boywonder, is a very good question. I could pull bits of evidence out all day and still not know what will suffice. In fact, i think, quite possiby, ANY sort of evidence will not make the grade.

Originally posted by Boywonder13

Originally posted by mhc_70

Originally posted by Boywonder13

Josephus, Wars of the Jews2.9.2-3; Antiquities of the Jews 18.55-59

It is interesting to note that when those words are copy n pasted into a google search only 2 links are found. 1 no longer exists, the other starts out like this...

If u noticed i said that that was a combined summary of two passages. Heres both passages seperate:

www.earlyjewishwritings.com...

"On the next day Pilate sat upon his tribunal, in the open market-place, and called to him the multitude, as desirous to give them an answer; and then gave a signal to the soldiers, that they should all by agreement at once encompass the Jews with their weapons; so the band of soldiers stood round about the Jews in three ranks. The Jews were under the utmost consternation at that unexpected sight. Pilate also said to them that they should be cut in pieces, unless they would admit of Caesar's images, and gave intimation to the soldiers to draw their naked swords. Hereupon the Jews, as it were at one signal, fell down in vast numbers together, and exposed their necks bare, and cried out that they were sooner ready to be slain, than that their law should be transgressed. Hereupon Pilate was greatly surprised at their prodigious superstition, and gave order that the ensigns should be presently carried out of Jerusalem. " War, Book 2, Chapter 9, #3

www.perseus.tufts.edu...

"BUT now Pilate, the procurator of Judea, removed the army from Cesarea to Jerusalem, to take their winter quarters there, in order to abolish the Jewish laws. So he introduced Caesar's effigies, which were upon the ensigns, and brought them into the city; whereas our law forbids us the very making of images; on which account the former procurators were wont to make their entry into the city with such ensigns as had not those ornaments. Pilate was the first who brought those images to Jerusalem, and set them up there; which was done without the knowledge of the people, because it was done in the night time; but as soon as they knew it, they came in multitudes to Cesarea, and interceded with Pilate many days that he would remove the images; and when he would not grant their requests, because it would tend to the injury of Caesar, while yet they persevered in their request, on the sixth day he ordered his soldiers to have their weapons privately, while he came and sat upon his judgment-seat, which seat was so prepared in the open place of the city, that it concealed the army that lay ready to oppress them; and when the Jews petitioned him again, he gave a signal to the soldiers to encompass them routed, and threatened that their punishment should be no less than immediate death, unless they would leave off disturbing him, and go their ways home. But they threw themselves upon the ground, and laid their necks bare, and said they would take their death very willingly, rather than the wisdom of their laws should be transgressed; upon which Pilate was deeply affected with their firm resolution to keep their laws inviolable, and presently commanded the images to be carried back from Jerusalem to Cesarea....(there is more to passage, but wont paste, as it wont fit in post)

Thanks for clarifying that for me.

I guess because they contain text like this...

[63] Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

...they are forgeries.

I wonder if Iasion is expecting us to take the whole book as a forgery or just the statements about Jesus?

Originally posted by phineasJwhoopie
I respect all those stars you have. But who asked you to be in charge of the research? I mean no disrespect. I am glad you looked into this matter and found an answer you could live with.

Personally I believe he was more than likely real. But I believe him to have been a prophet. Even though there is not one word, other than the Bible, written about him. King Herod was a pretty big dude (power wise) in his day. If he had knocked off the leader of a Jewish uprising, I bet he would have written something about him and would have notified Rome.

If you want to research something for me, find out if St. Nick is real. My mom said he wasn't. She also said the Easter Bunny was dead, but I saw him.

What is this guy talking about? He says there was nothing written about Jesus? That makes my head spin.

reply to post by phineasJwhoopie


St Nicholas was most definitely real! He no longer lives, obviously, but he sure did. He lived in the 3rd century. Has nothing to do with Jesus NOT existing LOL

But:
he lived to help others and lived by Obeying Jesus' words to "sell what you own and give the money to the poor,"

Originally posted by shearder
In fact, i think, quite possiby, ANY sort of evidence will not make the grade.

its very simple, and actually is in the OP original post if you cared to go back and check: contemporary evidence or first hand written accounts. there are no records, no first hand accounts, no names on any slab.

so far you're provided some proof of pontius pilate, the fact that the pool of bethesda might have existed, etc but still nothing about jesus himself.

the pilate letter to claudius would have been evidence enough if 1) we had a sample of it earlier than hundreds of years after jesus died and 2) (and most important) it wasn't a known forgery.

edit - no doubt there could be lots of reasons for there being none of these things. but the fact remains there isn't any.

[edit on 15-9-2008 by Convex]

Originally posted by mhc_70
Josephus Flavius? According to Iasion, he is a forgery.

this is another straw man argument. no one said josephus was a forgery. he was writing about jesus after talking to contemporary christians long after jesus died and so only proves that christians (followers of jesus) did exist at the time he talked to them. he was not alive when jesus live and could not have talked to or seen jesus directly.

what scholars do say is a small part of one of his documents was probably added much later.

Originally posted by Convex

its very simple, and actually is in the OP original post if you cared to go back and check: contemporary evidence or first hand written accounts. there are no records, no first hand accounts, no names on any slab.

so far you're provided some proof of pontius pilate, the fact that the pool of bethesda might have existed, etc but still nothing about jesus himself.

[edit on 15-9-2008 by Convex]

I understand your post, im just want to ask specifically what evidence you would like again...

though im glad you understand why their might not be any, considering we're living 2,000 years later. thats somethign some skeptics dont accept.