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The Evidence For Jesus' Existence Is Nothing But Hearsay

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posted on Sep, 12 2008 @ 06:16 PM
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Hi all,


Originally posted by mhc_70
Pseudepigrapha does not automatically mean a document is a forgery.


Thats what the word MEANS !
"Pseudo-graph" = FALSE-writing.
Written by someone OTHER than the named author.



Originally posted by mhc_70
Also the letter from P Pilate I linked to earlier in the thread is not among the Pseudepigrapha.com collections, interesting.


So.
The letter of Pilate is a KNOWN forgery.
But you keep on citing it, whithout ever ever going to check it !!



Originally posted by mhc_70
There are also several characteristics about this document that make it an exception to the hearsay rule.


WTF?
This has NOTHING to do with any silly "hearsay rule".
It's a KNOWN FORGERY.
Are you completely uncapable of checking the facts?



Iasion


[edit on 12-9-2008 by Iasion]

[edit on 12-9-2008 by Iasion]




posted on Sep, 12 2008 @ 06:19 PM
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Hi all,


Originally posted by mhc_70
Are you really serious? Just because they got the events exact date wrong does not mean it didn't happened. Poppycock? Pot/kettle?


So,
does the month of June prove the Goddess Juno existed?

Does the day Thursday prove the God Thor existed?

We can confidently predict that neither mhc, nor chancealot, will ever address this issue.


Iasion



posted on Sep, 12 2008 @ 08:20 PM
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reply to post by Iasion
 


Dude I was just wondering,what is the point to this thread ?

If a person with no experience of religion whatsoever came here, after they are told by a christian that he or she should believe the same as them or would be consigned to hell, for more info then fair enough.


I myself have (I hope) an open and enquiring mind, (if sometimes a little sarcastic) I will thouroughly look at both sides of an argument if I want to get to the bottom of things.

The picture I've been getting so far, is that christian appologists in general (I could be mistaken) will never check out source material that is alledged will refute their claims.

When I am asked to check out info that would alledgedly back up the claims of appologists , this I do endevour to do, for the sake of getting a whole picture, I wouldn't want to go to hell now would I? So it seems a smart idea to check out all the facts no?

But herein lays the problem, I still haven't found any facts, I have found an abundance of alledged facts but they mostly rely upon what the gospels say so this is obviously not going to supply me with facts because of all the problems that have previously been discussed, if it would then I would obviously accept the facts.

Time and again I'm pointed toward the alledged Josephus , tacitus and others, as proof.
But when I check up on these, I inevitably find more or less what you have quoted, ie fabrication misrepresentation etc.

Consequently, I have to come to the conclusion that, so far I have not seen any evidence to secure the claim of the apologists, however should they present other evidence allbeit potentiall, I would gladly consider it.

The apologists must consider at all times that the burden of proof is upon them and not the other way around.

From a personal point of view, it makes no difference to me what people choose to believe as long as they dont try to influence the world that my children are to live in, in any way.
Unfortuantely religion has a history of trying to influence other peoples lives which is unacceptable to me as it has the potential to harm my children.

So if someone would try and influence my life or that of my children they had better have a good reason, so far their reason is totally unfounded and unacceptable.

When AlexG first posted this thread, would'nt the apologists have held a better position and not even bother taking up the challenge?
They had nothing to prove to themselves or each other, and have failed misreably to prove their case to non religious.

If the case was proven then the discussion would end, if the reply is "Well nothing will persuade you anyway" well so what ?

We've had the same so called evidence over and over for years, there is no new evidence nor will there ever be (unless of course there is) so why bother presenting old evidence (or lack of) over and over as it's simply not working nobody is telling you not to believe what you accept as evidence.


If the question is asked "Well what will it take to persuade you " (I have been asked this ) personally i'm not persuaded of anything, I come to conclusions and I will know if the right evidence makes itself available.

If i died tomorrow (god forbid lol) and I met up with the jesusgod for judgement , and he asked why i wouldn't belive. I could put my hand on my heart and reply that the evidence I was given simply wasn't good enough or i would have believed.

Now if the jesusgod was uspet about my response, then there's nothing I can do about that and the jesus god could then define himself by what action he would take with me. simple really.



posted on Sep, 12 2008 @ 10:00 PM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by TruthParadox
About 2000 years from the time that a fable became popular, and the ignorant masses took it as fact, as they had no resources to check for themselves.
What's your point?


Popular?

That would have been after the Roman Emperors were killing anyone they could find who accepted Jesus Christ.

A couple CENTURIES after 33 A.D.



Obviously popular enough to survive through the ages, which was my point in the first place now wasn't it?




posted on Sep, 12 2008 @ 11:18 PM
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Originally posted by TruthParadox

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by TruthParadox
About 2000 years from the time that a fable became popular, and the ignorant masses took it as fact, as they had no resources to check for themselves.
What's your point?


Popular?

That would have been after the Roman Emperors were killing anyone they could find who accepted Jesus Christ.

A couple CENTURIES after 33 A.D.



Obviously popular enough to survive through the ages, which was my point in the first place now wasn't it?

You actually said 'the fable became popular 2,000 years ago.' (Paraphrase) It didn't, in fact, it never became popular or accepted until Rome fell. Until that point one was murdered for professing Jesus Christ, it was an immediate death sentence. Both by the Jews and the Romans.

Hardly "popular".

Again, what was the "event" that brought us from BC to AD? Or if you will, from BCE to CE?



posted on Sep, 13 2008 @ 01:49 PM
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Originally posted by Iasion
Hi all,


Originally posted by mhc_70
Pseudepigrapha does not automatically mean a document is a forgery.


Thats what the word MEANS !
"Pseudo-graph" = FALSE-writing.
Written by someone OTHER than the named author.


I provided you a plausible example how unforged documents could be grouped in with forged ones, you just ignored it.



Originally posted by mhc_70
Also the letter from P Pilate I linked to earlier in the thread is not among the Pseudepigrapha.com collections, interesting.

Originally posted by Iasion
So.
The letter of Pilate is a KNOWN forgery.
But you keep on citing it, whithout ever ever going to check it !!

Are you going to continue to expect us to just take your word for it, or are you going to back it up with something?

I have checked it and given sources, you, on the other hand, have only attempted to twist an opinion, again, state it as fact, to align with your religious perception by claiming it is a "known" forgery.

You are being intellectually dishonest.



Originally posted by mhc_70
There are also several characteristics about this document that make it an exception to the hearsay rule.



WTF?
This has NOTHING to do with any silly "hearsay rule".
It's a KNOWN FORGERY.
Are you completely uncapable of checking the facts?


Hearsay is relevant to this thread.

I am still waiting for evidence of this letter being a known forgery.



posted on Sep, 13 2008 @ 01:58 PM
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Originally posted by Iasion
Hi all,


Originally posted by mhc_70
Are you really serious? Just because they got the events exact date wrong does not mean it didn't happened. Poppycock? Pot/kettle?


So,
does the month of June prove the Goddess Juno existed?

Does the day Thursday prove the God Thor existed?

We can confidently predict that neither mhc, nor chancealot, will ever address this issue.



Ofcourse they don't prove anything, by themself.

It is, however, important data that can be used with other data to form a logical theory.

I am surprised I really have to put this in laymans terms for you, afterall, you called me the idiot.



posted on Sep, 13 2008 @ 03:15 PM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
You actually said 'the fable became popular 2,000 years ago.' (Paraphrase) It didn't, in fact, it never became popular or accepted until Rome fell.


I said "about 2,000 years". There's no way for me to know the exact year. But I do believe it was somewhat popular during the time the gospels were written.


Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Until that point one was murdered for professing Jesus Christ, it was an immediate death sentence. Both by the Jews and the Romans.


Why would they kill people for believing in Jesus if that belief was not at least somewhat popular? In fact, how could they KNOW about that belief to begin with unless the story of Jesus was popular? I'm sorry, but your words contradict themselves.



Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Again, what was the "event" that brought us from BC to AD? Or if you will, from BCE to CE?


As I and others have stated, we have no evidence that any 'event' happened at that time. Only a supposed event. And just like the days and months were named after fables, our years (BC/AD) were too.



posted on Sep, 13 2008 @ 06:09 PM
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Originally posted by mhc_70
Are you going to continue to expect us to just take your word for it, or are you going to back it up with something?


No.
It's a known fact that it's forgery.

But if you are too ignorant to know this, and too incompetent to look it up, then read this :
altreligion.about.com...



Originally posted by mhc_70
I have checked it and given sources,


Checked what?
You source is a WEBSITE of FORGERIES.


Iasion



posted on Sep, 13 2008 @ 06:36 PM
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Originally posted by mhc_70
Are you going to continue to expect us to just take your word for it, or are you going to back it up with something?

...

I am still waiting for evidence of this letter being a known forgery.

will you accept the catholic encyclopedia's word for it?


We are forced to admit that it is of later origin, and scholars agree in assigning it to the middle of the fourth century.



sorry, but you should at least do a little homework before you make these types of claims.

in fact, since you probably won't even follow the link, i'll paste what the encyc. has to say about thes pilate writings.



(2) Pilate Literature and Other Apocrypha Concerning Christ

While Christianity was struggling against the forces of Roman paganism, there was a natural tendency to dwell upon the part which a representative of the Roman Empire played in the supreme events of Our Lord's life, and to shape the testimony of Pontius Pilate, the procurator of Judea, even at the cost of exaggeration and amplification, into a weapon of apologetic defense, making that official bear witness to the miracles, Crucifixion, and Resurrection of Christ. Hence arose a considerable apocryphal Pilate literature, of which the Gospel of Gamaliel really forms a part, and like this latter apocryphon, it is characterized by exaggerating Pilate's weak defense of Jesus into strong sympathy and practical belief in His divinity. Report of Pilate to the Emperor. In the apocryphal Acts of Peter and Paul there is embodied a letter purporting to have been sent by Pontius Pilate to the Emperor Claudius. This briefly relates the fatuous crime of the Jews in persecuting the Holy One promised to them by their God; enumerates His miracles and states that the Jews accused Jesus of being a magician. Pilate at the time believing this, delivered Him to them. After the Resurrection the soldiers whom the governor had placed at the tomb were bribed by the leaders to be silent, but nevertheless divulged the fact. The missive concludes with a warning against the mendacity of the Jews. This composition is clearly apocryphal though unexpectedly brief and restrained."



that saves you the trouble of following the link.



posted on Sep, 13 2008 @ 06:45 PM
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here is some conclusive evidence
www.abovetopsecret.com...



posted on Sep, 13 2008 @ 07:14 PM
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Iason

I checked out that guy who wrote that on your link .

And this pretty much says it all about where his info came from ..
And I have read plenty of the Nicene and Anti Nicene records and I dont even agree with alot of what they said either ...
[Wheless relied primarily upon the Catholic Encyclopedia, and upon the Ante-Nicene, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers collection. These are now online, and the task of checking his statements is therefore relatively easy. ]
Since when is the Catholic version (or ideas)for anything been the truth ?


I believe alot of those books he was talking about were forgeries (The Lost Books of the bible I DONT AGREE WITH EITHER) ..
But that still does not negate the 66 Books that are in the bible ..


And if we are gonna play that game of so and so says this that and the other ..then here is a link DISPUTING him ...
www.tertullian.net...

Summary

Of 25 citations:

1. Reference: 2 not given, 18 correct, 2 false, 3 not quite right.
2. Verbal accuracy: 3 not given, 18 correct, 2 false, 2 not quite right
3. Fair representation: 1 not available, 6 correct, 14 false, 4 mixed or dubious

For a man intent on documentary proof of fraud, there is a significant level of error at even the basic level of accurate citation. 28% of the references are wrong or unavailable; 28% are inaccurate or can't be checked; and only 24% of the quotes correctly represent the author's views! Of course these figures are only a guide. Much real information is included, although heavily slanted. Nevertheless we have seen a significant level of misinformation in Wheless' account, and in some cases deliberate misrepresentation would seem to be a possibility.



posted on Sep, 13 2008 @ 07:43 PM
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Originally posted by Iasion

Originally posted by mhc_70
Are you going to continue to expect us to just take your word for it, or are you going to back it up with something?


No.
It's a known fact that it's forgery.

But if you are too ignorant to know this, and too incompetent to look it up, then read this :
altreligion.about.com...



Originally posted by mhc_70
I have checked it and given sources,


Checked what?
You source is a WEBSITE of FORGERIES.


Dude, put the shovel down while you can still get out.

You have a strange definition of "known fact" if Joseph Wheless is the author your going to use as proof. LOL, I mean really, do you know anything about the guy? He was a known militant atheist and so serious about being factual did not even seek the help of Hebrew, Greek or Latin translator. He also claimed, in the same book, that just about the whole New Testament is a forgery.

Nevertheless, If you had read your link, before you assumed, you would not have found Pilates letter to Claudius...cause its not there.

The book of Nicodemius is listed by Wheless as a forgery, but in the second link I provided, this letter is listed in the appendix in the book of Nicodemius in an attempt to lend it credibility, because of the letters authenticity.



posted on Sep, 13 2008 @ 07:51 PM
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Originally posted by Convex

Originally posted by mhc_70
Are you going to continue to expect us to just take your word for it, or are you going to back it up with something?

...

I am still waiting for evidence of this letter being a known forgery.

will you accept the catholic encyclopedia's word for it?


We are forced to admit that it is of later origin, and scholars agree in assigning it to the middle of the fourth century.



sorry, but you should at least do a little homework before you make these types of claims.

in fact, since you probably won't even follow the link, i'll paste what the encyc. has to say about thes pilate writings.



(2) Pilate Literature and Other Apocrypha Concerning Christ

While Christianity was struggling against the forces of Roman paganism, there was a natural tendency to dwell upon the part which a representative of the Roman Empire played in the supreme events of Our Lord's life, and to shape the testimony of Pontius Pilate, the procurator of Judea, even at the cost of exaggeration and amplification, into a weapon of apologetic defense, making that official bear witness to the miracles, Crucifixion, and Resurrection of Christ. Hence arose a considerable apocryphal Pilate literature, of which the Gospel of Gamaliel really forms a part, and like this latter apocryphon, it is characterized by exaggerating Pilate's weak defense of Jesus into strong sympathy and practical belief in His divinity. Report of Pilate to the Emperor. In the apocryphal Acts of Peter and Paul there is embodied a letter purporting to have been sent by Pontius Pilate to the Emperor Claudius. This briefly relates the fatuous crime of the Jews in persecuting the Holy One promised to them by their God; enumerates His miracles and states that the Jews accused Jesus of being a magician. Pilate at the time believing this, delivered Him to them. After the Resurrection the soldiers whom the governor had placed at the tomb were bribed by the leaders to be silent, but nevertheless divulged the fact. The missive concludes with a warning against the mendacity of the Jews. This composition is clearly apocryphal though unexpectedly brief and restrained."



that saves you the trouble of following the link.


You missed one small detail, the letter from Pilate to Claudius is listed in the appendix of the gospel of Nicodemus.

Often, forgers will attach authentic documents to the forgery in order to lend credibility to the forgery.



posted on Sep, 13 2008 @ 08:23 PM
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Originally posted by OldMedic
The vast majority of the people that have lived in this world have left no record, no house, no books, nothing. Nevertheless, they have indeed existed.

That's true. Ordinary people usually don't leave much record.



While true that the primary source for data on Jesus is the Bible, it is not the only record. But, two of the Gosphels were written by men that walked with Jesus, ate with him and knew him well. Matthew and John were both original apostles, and they write about their experience with Jesus.

There are a very few references to Jesus in archeological records, dating from the first century.

But you would think that with a person stirring up trouble, especially in Roman empire, causing problems and becoming well known throughout the area, more people would write about him, right? After all, the bible claims that Jesus' name was well known throughout the "world."



Now, the fact that there is no execution record means nothing, because there are very few extant records of executions in Palestine (as the Romans called it). They rarely bothered to document their prisoners in that "province".

If they executed a "famous" person, they might have recorded that.



But the bottom line is, that no, we can not prove that Jesus existed with any form of "outside" record. But, the fact that 200 years later, millions upon millions of people believe in him goes a long way.

Millions upon millions believe in Muhammad and Allah. Does that make them right?



But yes, ultimately it does indeed boil down to faith.

I know for you "intellectual types" faith is a terrible word. You can't and won't believe in anything you can't see, taste, feel, etc. That's your loss, not mine.

Is it your loss that muslims have faith in Allah and Muhammad and you don't?



posted on Sep, 13 2008 @ 08:35 PM
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Originally posted by mhc_70
Dude, put the shovel down while you can still get out.

You have a strange definition of "known fact" if Joseph Wheless is the author your going to use as proof. LOL, I mean really, do you know anything about the guy? He was a known militant atheist and so serious about being factual did not even seek the help of Hebrew, Greek or Latin translator. He also claimed, in the same book, that just about the whole New Testament is a forgery.


I don't use Wheless (although he is correct on this point.)
I posted a linked hurriedly, yes.

Anyway -
I refer you to the solid consensus of modern scholarship.
It's a forgery.
A KNOWN forgery.

Any research will show this.
You STILL haven't done any.
Incredible.
en.wikipedia.org...


Iasion





[edit on 13-9-2008 by Iasion]



posted on Sep, 13 2008 @ 08:45 PM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical



Because there's nothing substantial that supports his existence.


Are you serious? How about CHRISTIANITY???? It has over 1.6 Billion adherents, 2 major holidays, and you expect me to believe that all started because 11 men were liars???

So, by that standard, do you believe that Muhammad was telling the truth? Islam has 1.2 billion adherents. It has major holidays.



David Koresh had more than 11 disciples. Where is his massive religion? Alexander the Great claimed to be a deity, do we celebrate his birthday every year? Are there Billions of people who are Alexandriacs?

How about Charles Taze Russell? Joseph Smith, Jr?



That's absurd, how do we have Christianity today if Jesus never walked the Earth? You mean to tell me 11 men lied about him, (unto death), for a MYTH????

So you mean that Islam is also the truth? Buddhism?



Do you know a single person that would maintain Bigfoot is real with a gun to their head?

People do give their lives for false beliefs. It's a shame really. Besides, who would die for a bigfoot? Unless the bigfood is his best friend, maybe.



posted on Sep, 13 2008 @ 08:55 PM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Jesus didn't tell his disciples "Write about me". he said "Follow me..."

Secondly, virtually all Jews were illeterate.


Source?

Reading the Torah was a very important part of their education. Generally, the jews were more educated and literate than the surrounding people, excluding the Romans.

Jewish Education in Ancient Times



posted on Sep, 13 2008 @ 08:58 PM
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We have the evidence of the Scripture to prove the existence of
all creation--especially Our Lord--who suffered the passion and
died on the Cross so that we may have a chance to win
salvation.
The Scripture covers a span of 1200 years-each book is in harmony
with all the other books.
St. Paul stated in his readings--the Bible was written in a way that
those who believe and desire to learn--their minds will open.
Those who have a mind set to attack and defy the word of
the Lord,--their mind will be blinded.



posted on Sep, 13 2008 @ 09:05 PM
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Originally posted by OldThinker
You know I've found the intensity of the opposition is often an indicator you are on to something ... I wonder why there aren't threads like 'the existence of buddha is a lie' or 'dyanetics is a farse' or the dali-lama is a hypocrite'

hmmm, I wonder?

Could it Be LIGHT HAS COME INTO THE WORLD AND THE WORLD DID NOT COMPREHEND IT??????

OT just comtemplating.....


Uhhh, maybe it is because no buddhist or scientologist have ever created a thread promoting his or her belief as the TRUTH and tell us to believe him or else?

Oh yeah, by your standard, the people who started the GFL threads might be on to something since we tore them apart. Hmm, maybe I'll start believing in GFL.

[edit] Just remembered - yes there have been threads bashing dala lama and scientology.

[edit on 13-9-2008 by Deaf Alien]



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