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The Evidence For Jesus' Existence Is Nothing But Hearsay

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posted on Sep, 8 2008 @ 05:59 PM
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Originally posted by mhc_70
Did you not call this a forgery?



Originally posted by Iasion
Idiot.
Yes,
the report to Pilate IS a forgery.
Anyone who has studied the subject at all knows that.
Unlike you.


Please enlighten me, oh wise one.



Originally posted by mhc_70
YOU ignored my arguments showing how Tacitus was not using Roman records, merely repeating later 2nd century Christian beliefs, and brought up a red herring about forgery in a completely UNRELATED document.


I think you should re-read the thread, your just regurgitating what your mind has been using to comfort your weary soul, regardless of the facts.




posted on Sep, 8 2008 @ 06:46 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


I said that I looked at every page. I read the titles of the individual articles. When I saw something interesting, I would read into the article. The most interesting thing I got out of this exercise was a list of lost books that the old testament was based on. I guess you could do the same thing by reading the whole Bible and write down all the references to other books. But that would be a lot more tedious than what I did.
Anyway I ended up with references to these interesting people. I am just telling a story. I am not saying this is proof, but I had enough respect of this Rabbi to not pursue that thread of investigation, further.
I can tell you what he did say about Jesus, based on all his study. He said there was not one person who the Gospel is based on. The story of Jesus was created from a composite of several different people.
Again, I am not saying he was right but just telling a story. My personal opinion is to not look to the Jews for any confirmation of Jesus. If there was such a thing, I would know about it. Not because I am any kind of expert but because I have known people who are experts.



posted on Sep, 8 2008 @ 07:03 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 



So? All that proves is he said "It's not Jesus". That doesn't even prove that he doesn't think it's not Jesus. Many rabbis have to state certain things. Heck, look at all the Christian pastors throughout history who have spread false doctrine just to keep butts in pews to keep the money flowing in.

It was not like that. He had an office in the temple and had office hours. I would show up when I knew he would be there and talk to him a little and he would recommend a book for me to read and sometimes loan me one. When I had that particular conversation, we were the only people in the building. Being a gentile, I was not buddies with anyone else in the congregation, who I might talk about the Rabbi with. So I am sure he was being perfectly honest with me. I could have been more honest with him, but was not, because I did not want to get the same reaction from him that I got from you. He looked at my lists and acted shocked and asked me where I got it from. I never said how I came up with it because he did not push the issue.
I need to get it together and find the reference I was quoting in an earlier post on this thread. I think it is the Jewish Wars, book 19, by Josephus.
BTW my description of this conversation, that I gave in that earlier post was a little overly brief. He actually gave me little synopsis of each of them and told me why they were not Jesus. So, he actually had available to call up from memory, convincing arguments. He did not really just say "no". That is just how I can explain it, 20 something years later.


[edit on 8-9-2008 by jmdewey60]



posted on Sep, 8 2008 @ 08:49 PM
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You know I've found the intensity of the opposition is often an indicator you are on to something ... I wonder why there aren't threads like 'the existence of buddha is a lie' or 'dyanetics is a farse' or the dali-lama is a hypocrite'

hmmm, I wonder?

Could it Be LIGHT HAS COME INTO THE WORLD AND THE WORLD DID NOT COMPREHEND IT??????

OT just comtemplating.....



posted on Sep, 8 2008 @ 09:12 PM
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reply to post by TruthParadox
 



There's evidence now? Where?



The perfect harmony of nature. That's evidence it was created by intelligence. There is evidence in my life, it has changed permanently, where for years I had tried to make it work by my own efforts and failed miserably. My prayers are answered, I can personally see that things I pray for are answered.

That's evidence, PERSONAL evidence, you'll notice I said 'in order for a PERSON (singular) to state "God exists", "THEY" (that person) needs only TRACE evidence.'

I have experience that 'trace evidence'.




Wrong. There are so many contradictions with God it's not funny. Let's start with the contradiction of a perfect omnipotent being creating a flawed world.


But that is a straw man, God didn't create the world 'flawed', he created it PERFECT. Satan jacked that plan all to Hell (no pun intended). God's idea was far superior (free choice between good and evil) than had he just created us and installed "Microsoft God" into our brain. God didn't want robots, he wanted creatures that had the ability to either love Him or reject Him. What satisfaction is there in a creature loving you that you created it to do that only? The true satisfaction God gets is when we choose to love Him. I mean how boring would it be if your creation loved you and that is the only thing they were wired to do??

Which creation would you expect from an omnipotent, omniscient being? Robots of creatures with free choice? Everyone wants to blame God for the evils of the world, why the HELL doesn't anyone ever want to blame Satan??? I sure do, I hate what that egomaniac did to the perfect plan God had created.




Don't see the obvious contradiction?


Absolutely not, I see the perfect love God had for humans, not only did He create us with choice as opposed to robots, He also chose to make Himself a man to sacrifice for us to redeem us, so we weren't all condemned forever. THAT IS LOVE. He chose to give up His rightful place in heaven to come here to Earth to live a poor life, to be beaten, spit upon, and nailed to a cross out of LOVE for us. Sorry, I see no contradiction there, I see a LOVE that I could never give myself. All I can do is be utterly amazed that God would do that for me.



posted on Sep, 8 2008 @ 09:19 PM
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Originally posted by Iasion

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
You're my friend, but on this statement I have to call "B.S."


I QUOTED the actual Talmud words.
You ignored them.
Like you repeatedly ignored my comments about what it says.

YOU keep claiming the Talmud refers to Jesus.
Then put up or shut up.

Address the issue of what the Talmud says.
Or go away.


Iasion


????????????????

Are you 'jmdewey60'????

That post where I called "B.S." to was what HE STATED.

That he read the entire Jewish Encyclopedia, page by page, in 1 day.



posted on Sep, 8 2008 @ 09:20 PM
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Originally posted by OldThinker
You know I've found the intensity of the opposition is often an indicator you are on to something ... I wonder why there aren't threads like 'the existence of buddha is a lie' or 'dyanetics is a farse' or the dali-lama is a hypocrite'

hmmm, I wonder?

Could it Be LIGHT HAS COME INTO THE WORLD AND THE WORLD DID NOT COMPREHEND IT??????


If you lived in a country where everyone thought something was true, and you disagreed, and they tried to force it down your throat, what would you do? The reason the topic is intense is because it brings out of humans the need to fight for their belief. Because when you have so many people telling you that you are wrong, even though you know you are most likely right, then it makes you fight even harder. It's basic psychology. I've seen Christians bring this up time and time again. It's nothing personal, it's just that there really isn't evidence for Jesus. I admit that there is a small chance that he did exist, and if so, was most likely a compilation of stories put together. That's my take on it anyway. I've had people say that I'm run by Satan. Does Satan seak the truth? Because that is what I seak. The problem is that Christianity implys many times that there will be people that disagree because they have demons. My intent is not driven by evil, I'm actually a pretty nice guy. I'm just interested in the truth, and when the truth is supressed, I like to point out the whole story. There are so many people that think that there is actual evidence for Jesus' existence. There simply isn't.



posted on Sep, 8 2008 @ 09:25 PM
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I dont blame God for anything ..I do blame satan for his part.
But I blame mankind more than anyone ..Because he has a choice ..satan doesnt drag men to do wickedness ...he just tempts them into it and the word says it is really because of the LUST in mankind that makes him fall .I mean even satan has to have permission and cannot go over our free will .He whispers for you to do it ..you just give in and go do it ..knowing full well the consequences ..as in if you mess with fire you will get burned .

Its MY FAULT MY LIFE WAS A MESS ..not satans and not Gods.And not my next door neighbors ..not anyones fault but me .I always had choices ..do it or dont.



posted on Sep, 8 2008 @ 09:30 PM
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reply to post by Iasion
 





Wrong. You just don't understand it.


Of course I don't understand it, it's not based in sound logic. If one biased sample is not allowed to be used as evidence, then the other side's biased sample shouldn't be allowed either.




But,
when we EXAMINE this evidence, we find it is simply late beliefs, weak or ambiguous, or sometimes even FORGED.

Thus this evidence is very poor, essentially useless evidence.


Precisely why true believers hate the modern translations and the trash Greek manuscripts they come from. (Westcott and Hort, two Satanists).

Just because the Modern translations are garbage, and just because their common Greek manuscript is garbage, doesn't make the true Greek manuscript garbage, nor the only authorized version garbage.




We see you continue to ignore my point about what the Talmud actually SAYS about Jesus.


I didn't ignore ANYTHING, you missed my counterpoint. Your failure to read doesn't mean I 'ignored' something. I.E.:

"… He[Jesus] is referred to in the Talmud as Otho Isch- "That man," i.e. the one who is known to all. In the tract Abhodah Zarah, 6a, we read: "He is called a Christian who follows the false teachings of that man, who taught them to celebrate the feast on the first day of the Sabbath, that is, to worship on the first day after Sabbath…Talui, -"The one who was hanged"…"

And:

Jewish sources avoid the Greek name "Jesus", meaning 'savior', and abbreviate Jeschua to "Jeshu' which means "may his name be blotted out!"

"…name in Hebrew would be Jeschua Hanotsri--Jesus the Nazarene. He is called Notsri from the city of Nazareth… In the Talmud Christians are also called Notsrim. (Amongst other things). 'Since the word Jeschua means 'Savior,' the name Jesus rarely occurs in the Jewish books. It is almost always abbreviated to Jeschu… as if it were composed of the initial letters of the three words Immach SCHemo Vezikro-- (meaning)- -'May his name be blotted out.'"

HERE!!! (A 2nd time) Read it this time bro....

I never said what they slandered Jesus Christ with is the actual truth about him, I said those slanders prove that a source other than the Bible admits that Jesus existed, even if they lied about what his life was.

Read a link or 2 sometime.



posted on Sep, 8 2008 @ 09:35 PM
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Originally posted by OldThinker
You know I've found the intensity of the opposition is often an indicator you are on to something ... I wonder why there aren't threads like 'the existence of buddha is a lie' or 'dyanetics is a farse' or the dali-lama is a hypocrite'

hmmm, I wonder?

Could it Be LIGHT HAS COME INTO THE WORLD AND THE WORLD DID NOT COMPREHEND IT??????

OT just comtemplating.....
Odd you bring this up.

There is an old saying and it goes something like this:

"The probability that someone is right increases proportionately to the level at which people are speaking out against it."

For instance, I bet I could start a thread right now stating that for a FACT the Milky Way is actually made of Skittles and I bet it wouldn't even receive 5 posts in rebuttal.



posted on Sep, 8 2008 @ 09:38 PM
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Truth ..your seeking answers in all the wrong places in all the wrong ways .
God is not at our beckon command He is GOD .he does not just give us what we want when we want it .You cannot demand he answer you .If I was your father I wouldnt answer you either .Until you calmed down enough to reasonably be able to speak to you .Your out for blood and he isnt gonna fight ya ..he wants you to find him but not in this way >>you may find him this way but it sure looks to be the hard way my friend.
If he were the big bad ugly OT God you think he was then why are you still alive and standing and able to say the things you have said about him and even deny his existance .If he didnt love you I believe you would not be here at all right now .I pray that you will humble yourself someday enough to actually find him before your time is up .Humble is what he wants from you THATS ALL >its that simple.he never left you .You left him .



posted on Sep, 8 2008 @ 09:44 PM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by TruthParadox
 



There's evidence now? Where?



The perfect harmony of nature. That's evidence it was created by intelligence.


I'm sorry, but that's not evidence. The perfect harmony of nature seems perfect to us because it supports life. Our eyes decieve us. A woman looks attractive if she is healthy and can support life. A lush tree looks better than a dead tree because it supports life. It's in our genetics. It can also be explained by evolution and other scientific theories which require logic and not assumption.


Originally posted by NOTurTypical
There is evidence in my life, it has changed permanently, where for years I had tried to make it work by my own efforts and failed miserably. My prayers are answered, I can personally see that things I pray for are answered.


Again, that's not evidence. That's like looking at a cloud and seeing a bunny. You accept it as evidence, but it could just as easily be chance.


Originally posted by NOTurTypical
That's evidence, PERSONAL evidence, you'll notice I said 'in order for a PERSON (singular) to state "God exists", "THEY" (that person) needs only TRACE evidence.'

I have experience that 'trace evidence'.


You can accept it as evidence, but it's not evidence. Evidence is tangable. Evidence can be measured in some way.


Originally posted by NOTurTypical


Wrong. There are so many contradictions with God it's not funny. Let's start with the contradiction of a perfect omnipotent being creating a flawed world.


But that is a straw man, God didn't create the world 'flawed', he created it PERFECT. Satan jacked that plan all to Hell (no pun intended).


You don't understand. If God is perfect AND omnipotent, then his plan would never have gone all to Hell (literally, because according to you and other Christians, a majority of his creation is burning in Hell right now as I type this). If God was perfect AND omnipotent, he wouldn't need the satisfaction of us loving him. If God was perfect AND omnipotent, he wouldn't have created a being (satan) that would later thrust the world into turmoil, as he would have known this before hand. If God was infinite, he wouldn't create anything, as he would contradict himself being infinite in doing so.


Originally posted by NOTurTypical
God's idea was far superior (free choice between good and evil) than had he just created us and installed "Microsoft God" into our brain. God didn't want robots, he wanted creatures that had the ability to either love Him or reject Him. What satisfaction is there in a creature loving you that you created it to do that only? The true satisfaction God gets is when we choose to love Him. I mean how boring would it be if your creation loved you and that is the only thing they were wired to do??


He wouldn't have to take away our free will, he could simply make himself not be INVISIBLE. You see, if God was here for us to KNOW that he was here, then there would be no atheist. How many people would reject him? We would still have free will, but what your saying is that he gave us free will and then made himself invisible, thus increasing our odds of making the wrong choice based on insufficient data. A perfect AND omnipotent God would not do this.


Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Which creation would you expect from an omnipotent, omniscient being? Robots of creatures with free choice? Everyone wants to blame God for the evils of the world, why the HELL doesn't anyone ever want to blame Satan??? I sure do, I hate what that egomaniac did to the perfect plan God had created.


God created Satan, knowing what he would do (omnipotent), therefor God created Satan to be evil. How can you not see this? Omnipotent means all knowing. He would have known before hand. The fact that he knew and created him anyway also suggests that he created him to be evil, as he couldn't have not known. It's really very simple. How is it you can't see this?


Originally posted by NOTurTypical


Don't see the obvious contradiction?


Absolutely not, I see the perfect love God had for humans, not only did He create us with choice as opposed to robots, He also chose to make Himself a man to sacrifice for us to redeem us, so we weren't all condemned forever. THAT IS LOVE. He chose to give up His rightful place in heaven to come here to Earth to live a poor life, to be beaten, spit upon, and nailed to a cross out of LOVE for us. Sorry, I see no contradiction there, I see a LOVE that I could never give myself. All I can do is be utterly amazed that God would do that for me.


If God had perfect love for us, then it never would of had to come to that point. My God man, just use your head. If He had perfect love then he would not send a majority of his creation to Hell simply for not believing in an invisible Hitler. Do you honestly think that all those people burning in Hell deserved that? What did they do that was so evil? We are an equation. If God created us, then he created us the way we are, knowing the outcome. Yet he sends people in Hell just for playing out the equation they were instilled with. Wow.

Future warning. Do not argue with me about the contradictions of God. There have not, can not, and never will be answers for the questions I have, nor will there be a right for all the wrong that has happened.



posted on Sep, 8 2008 @ 09:50 PM
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reply to post by TruthParadox
 


You aren't listening to me.

I said this and I paraphrase:

"All a PERSON needs to believe in God is trace evidence..."

It is EVIDENCE to ME. To ME. I'm the one that has to choose to believe or NOT. You are looking at MY evidence zand tryint to attribute it to the WORLD.

It's evidence to ME. I'm the one that believes God exists based on this evidence.

I don't care if the world believes that evidence or not, I do not care if the next guy wants a signed 8 X 10 photograph of Jesus Christ or not.

It's the EVIDENCE I use. You're responsible for yourself.



posted on Sep, 8 2008 @ 09:55 PM
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Another thing...

Do you ever consider God created it this was because it was His plan from the start?

Could you also admit that possibly just because it seems illogical to you is because you are not omniscient yourself? That the ultimate plan transcends your human comprehension?

Hey, I have an idea, U2U coming.



posted on Sep, 8 2008 @ 10:02 PM
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[if they tried to force it down your throat]

How is anyone forcing anything down your throat.I dont get that this thread is pretty clearly about this subject is it not ?The world is moving farther away from the Lord anyway so it wont be long there will be no one discussing God ..so just wait ...its comeing ..you sure you wanna be here then ?
Is God haunting your spirit so bad that you see him around every street corner and under every bed .Why are you afraid of him ?He is not mad at you obviously.Your the one mad .



posted on Sep, 8 2008 @ 10:04 PM
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Quote[It can also be explained by evolution and other scientific theories which require logic and not assumption. ]

Truth did you really just say that it requires logic to believe in Scientific THEORIES?
are you hearing yourself at all ?



posted on Sep, 8 2008 @ 10:11 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


You know this reminds me of what Jobs problem may have been .
God put him right in his place when he said "Were you there when I created the stars etc" ..He talked to Job like Job may have been like Truth here where he thinks he knows whats up and why and how maybe things should have been done differently than what God did ..
PLEASE TRUTH dont be Job ...he went through hell to learn that he didnt create anything and his way is not even close to the way things should be ..God created it he sure as heck knew what he was doing ..and how dare us mere men who can only destroy not create ..tell him how he should have done his job..
We only see a small bit of whats happening and why ....we dont have a whole picture ...And most of the time thats only because we have a ITS ALL ABOUT ME attitude .



posted on Sep, 8 2008 @ 10:25 PM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Another thing...

Do you ever consider God created it this was because it was His plan from the start?


I've thought of this before. The problem with thinking that it was all his plan from the start is that why would he plan for so many people to go to Hell? Just think about it, they didn't do anything wrong except to be themselves. If the way they are is not living up to God's standards, then the blood is on HIS hands, as he is omnipotent and could have seen that comming. Why should anyone have to suffer eternity in Hell simply because God created them in such a way that it would be inevitable that they would reject him?


Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Could you also admit that possibly just because it seems illogical to you is because you are not omniscient yourself? That the ultimate plan transcends your human comprehension?


I've thought of this before to. The problem is that it's up to those with knowledge to look out for those without. Unless he WANTED a majority of people to suffer in Hell, then he would have made himself more visible, especially to people like me who base decisions on pure logic. If I spent eternity in Hell, what is my crime? What evil have I done? I am genuinly seeking the truth, and my logic states that God does not exist. Is that evil? Is that worth torturing someone for eternity? Eternity is a long time. Just think about it.

Also, stating that God works in strange and mysterious ways (which is pretty much what you're stating) is a cop out. If God gave us our brains, then he expects us to use it. I do exactly that, and my brain tells me he doesn't exist. So if he created my brain to be flawed, then why should I have to suffer for it? I'm doing the best I can. I realize that I'm pretty much repeating myself, but I just don't see how people can't understand what I'm saying. It just doesn't add up ANY way you slice it.



Originally posted by NOTurTypical
"All a PERSON needs to believe in God is trace evidence..."

It is EVIDENCE to ME. To ME. I'm the one that has to choose to believe or NOT. You are looking at MY evidence zand tryint to attribute it to the WORLD.


No no, I get what you're saying. I'm sorry if what I said implied that you should not choose what's evidence and what's not. I'm simply saying that it's not evidence. You can choose to accept anything as evidence, but it's not evidence. There's a fine line. An example is if someone sees a UFO, he could accept that as evidence that aliens exist. But it's not evidence. If I see a dog running across the street, I can CHOOSE to accept that as evidence that a cyclops was chasing the dog and scared it across the street. Get where I'm going with this? The reason it's evidence to you but not evidence is because it could also be attributed to other things.

[edit on 8-9-2008 by TruthParadox]



posted on Sep, 8 2008 @ 10:38 PM
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Truth .
I dont think you even read that bible at all .
No one is going to HELL because they didnt do anything THEY ARE CHOOSING their own WAY ...their way is leading to death and destruction (And Yes they know it too) .....we all have a choice ....



posted on Sep, 9 2008 @ 02:00 AM
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Did anyone ever consider that the current interpretation of ''god'' may be tweaked for control over the masses?

I believe that people need to wake up to the reality of duality.

For every action, there is an equal or opposite reaction.

The yin and the yang

positive and negative

There has to be a balance.

Jesus, if he was real, was not a God on Earth. He was not the son of God. We are all, metaphorically the sons of God. This entire universe/multiverse is God. Everything is connected, and as my ancestors say, everything is related.


Just because the dominant religions may be quite off, doesn't mean one should lose all spirituality. It doesn't mean that a higher ineffable tetragrammaton doesn't exist.

You have a soul and you know it.

there is no hell.

Earth is composed of the lowest vibrations. We experience physical reality, so that means solid/rigid things vibrate super #ing slow.
Ascension means realizing your higher self and having your higher self live through you, it doesn't mean you really rise from the dead. Rising from the dead is a metaphorical term.

Earth is the real hell.

Ripe are those who soften what is rigid, inside and out; they shall be open to receive strength and power -- their natural inheritance -- from nature.---Aramaic translation of the Beatitudes.

Im no bible thumper, but I don't believe the bible was meant to be taken literally. Its all a story to help one grow spiritually. When one takes into account other ways of thinking and belief from around the world, one begins to open ones eyes to the divine truth that needn't be spoken of, for the divine truth is ineffable.



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