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The Evidence For Jesus' Existence Is Nothing But Hearsay

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posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 10:19 AM
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Originally posted by AlexG141989

Originally posted by OldThinker
reply to post by AlexG141989
 


AlexG141989,

Woosaaa!!!!

Let's all slow down...I did read your post...and I understand your are passionate....BUT....WHY?

Help OT out, please....what is the motivation to DEBUNK us Christians? Have one of us pissed you off...really...OT wants to know...

Really, please let down the guard...and share with me...or U2U me, ok?

I can understand ZEAL from us Christians...we see this debate as eternal damnation for those who reject....but what are you 'protecting me from? Since we all become fertilizer at the end...and live in survival-of-the-fitest-during life????

Give OT some insight, ok?


[edit on 3-9-2008 by OldThinker]


Don't go off topic, like the mods say, discuss the topic, not the member.


Whoah, hold your horses little buddy.
He's not OT mate, you are. Answer his question or cease to debate.

Until that day this topic/tread is won by OT and the Christians as far as I can see


[edit on 6-9-2008 by WatchRider]




posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 10:24 AM
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Who are you talking to WR?

(nevermind) ty

[edit on 6-9-2008 by NOTurTypical]



posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 10:26 AM
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See above edited post

[edit on 6-9-2008 by WatchRider]



posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 10:30 AM
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[Lot's of people check the box labeled "Christian" on forms, that doesn't mean they worship Jesus Christ. That just means they think they are Christians.]

Thats right .In fact most who say they are Christians are not .
In my opinion Catholics (Not all but most) are not Christians at all .Or they would not be serving so many gods (saints,Mary etc) as they do .They are as heavy into idolatry as most pagans are .
The same goes for many mainline supposed Christian churchs ..
If you ask me there are definately ATHIESTS running the show in most of our Churchs or they would not be doing what they are doing .If they truly did believe in God they would be walking softer and should be very worried about what God thinks about what they are doing IN HIS SONS NAME >>>>

Alot of people I know right now in my own neighborhood say they are Christian while they go out and curse their neighbors while drunk and drugged on PRESCRIPTION meds that the DR gives them ...And they have no clue what the bible says because THEY DONT READ IT >
Do you really consider that someone who is a real Christian ?



posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 10:38 AM
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Exactly! There is rampant Churchianity in America, but practicing, Bible-believing Christianity is less than 10% of the population.



posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 10:41 AM
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Originally posted by Parabolic
To say that my premise is neither reasonable nor plausible is logically fallacious, as we'd have to first accept your unsubstantiated appraisal that Roman record keeping was indeed advanced, and that Romans were the definitive record keepers of the time. My premise was more general and hardly exclusive to the Romans.


Unsubstantiated? Wrong sir. I provided a couple of links showing that Romans did indeed have sophisticated writing and record keeping. Here again (note it says during the "early Roman Empire" which would be around the time of Jesus):

carlos.emory.edu...
www.crystalinks.com...


During the early Roman Empire, a revolutionary change in the form of books and other written records was taking place. Though it does not seem at first glance to be such an important innovation, the changeover from books in the form of a rolled manuscript to a book that was bound along one edge was nothing short of earthshaking.

For the first time in history, a reader could flip through the pages of a book instead of laboriously rolling a scroll from one hardwood stick onto the other in order to find the particular place in the text he or she was looking for. This saved the reader hours when it came to looking up information.

It also made it easier to keep written financial and legal records as well as account books of all kinds. This new format for the printed word was also more portable.


So far, although I have asked twice, you have provided not an iota of proof or source for your statement that the Romans did not write. Here is your statement:


Originally posted by Parabolic
There were no sophisticated means of recording anything save for by mouth.


So, please substantiate your claim. I'm interested to see your sources.



posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 10:55 AM
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LMAO

Please man, more than half the world agrees that Jesus did walk the earth, and that muhammed did and all the other 'prophets'. I am catholic but Im not a stupid cathlic, i know whats going on.

But anyway Jesus did in fact live, and the claims you just put up sound like ridiculous atheist claims trying to convince stupid people to become atheist. PEOPLE ARE HAPPY BELIEVING IN A GOD, ANY GOD!!!



No one has the slightest physical evidence to support a historical Jesus; no artifacts, dwelling, works of carpentry, or self-written manuscripts. All claims about Jesus derive from writings of other people. There occurs no contemporary Roman record that shows Pontius Pilate executing a man named Jesus. Devastating to historians, there occurs not a single contemporary writing that mentions Jesus. All documents about Jesus got written well after the life of the alleged Jesus from either: unknown authors, people who had never met an earthly Jesus, or from fraudulent, mythical or allegorical writings.


Yeah right, your gonna tell me that you actually expect to find a library of records of a man that lived 2000 years ago. But wait Jesus was very popular why didn't he have a lot of info. Look this is pure atheist misinformation, you try and come up with points but you can't prove them or just look stupid because its not logical. Jesus was despised among Jews and most everyone, but there were many people he touched and that loved him. Would you expect to find a record of yourself after you die, if you are despised among catholics?? Yeah Jesus had a myspace too.



Hearsay means information derived from other people rather than on a witness' own knowledge.


Are you kidding, the information was written by his apostles who SAW his death SAW his resurrection and LIVED WITH THE MAN from the time he started his ministry to the of his DEATH. Then they wrote the bible books, of course the church has selected what they like and what they dont but that is besides the point. ITS just a STUPID claim that people like you love to hear!

I just read through all the other 'claims' you posted. Honestly I am not gonna waste my time, the logic is ill founded and you and the author act as if 2008 years ago looked just like today, and pilate was driving a Ferrari.

And a perfect example...


If you do not understand this, imagine yourself confronted with a charge for a crime which you know you did not commit. You feel confident that no one can prove guilt because you know that there exists no evidence whatsoever for the charge against you. Now imagine that you stand present in a court of law that allows hearsay as evidence. When the prosecution presents its case, everyone who takes the stand against you claims that you committed the crime, not as a witness themselves, but solely because other people said so. None of these other people, mind you, ever show up in court, nor can anyone find them.


And that entire statement pisses me off to no end, this man died, he put up absolutely no fight, was tortured to the edge of death and then nailed to a cross and left to suffacate to death on HIS own BLOOD three hours later.

THIS ALSO PROVES THE FACT!!, that the author knows nothing about the history of Jesus, its ignorance! Jesus was charged with the crime of saying he was the King of the Jews, the Jewish public wanted him DEAD, they had no king except God. Pilate did not want to execute him but when he questioned Jesus and asked him "Are you the King of the Jews", Jesus said I am. HE SAID THAT KNOWING THAT IT WOULD BE HIS AGONIZING DEATH, IF HE WOULD HAVE SAID NO THEY WOULD HAVE LET HIM GO. At this point I just can't understand, do you really belive there was an actual court system that was not incredibly biased by the Jewish church.

And I KNOW you wouldn't say I AM if you knew it would lead to your AGONIZING DEATH!

Your disgusting



posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 11:09 AM
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Now, Jesus was wanted killed because he said he was the "Son of God", making Him God in the flesh.

They considered that statement to be blasphemy.



posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 11:11 AM
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reply to post by whatsup
 

Well I'll give you one thing.I don't live in the south so I can say for sure. I live on the east coast in NY to be exact and the reality is that I have absolutely no rights as an American/Christian. Every religion such as Sikh,Muslim,Jew and any other religion you can think of play the religion card just as much as the race card.

I could personally care less about persecution , acceptance or anything else which may come from society. I don't care if anyone accepts my God or rejects him. I'm not asking for sympathy and I'm just stating what I see.Your perception may be clouded or just blind, but according to what I see and hear in life and on tv, it seems just the opposite of what you state.


REGARDLESS, all religion does is keep us seperated as people and this is why regardless of what religion we may practice,EVERY single one of us are nothing more than hypocrites.There will never be world peace. Races, religions, dmocrat,republican. These are the problems w/society. We all want to belong to a little special group who shares our values. There's no such group as every single one of us have entirely different views and interests. Some similarities, but that's about it.

So technically not a single one of us should even be opening our mouth about any subject accept American rights as citizens and keep our practices amongst our families.Again,I could care less about sympathy and persecution of any religion including my own. My beliefs are what they are and I don't push them or my agenda on anyone. I deal w/whatever life throws at me. Trials tribulation and persecution and will overcome them all. I know what I've seen felt and what i've been through. I know what's real.



posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 11:21 AM
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There will never be world peace.


That's not what scripture says. During the Earthly reign of Christ we will "turn swords into plowshares".



posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 11:23 AM
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Originally posted by TruthParadox
Do you deny the history of Hercules to deny the belief in Zeus? The story of Hercules is intertwined with supernatural elements, just as the Bible is. Is it possible that Hercules existed but was simply exagerated about? I suppose it's possible, but is it really probable? This is exactly how I feel about Jesus. I'm sure you can relate as you probably don't believe that Hercules existed.


Well, this might surprise you but... it is possible. I do believe there is some truth in all mythology and much of the 'facts' occurred in antediluvian times but were later exaggerated and embellished or turned into what we know as myths. You should talk to the member Undo. She has taught me a LOT about it. Before I would have had to concede your point but I can't find it possible to do so after speaking with her.



posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 01:27 PM
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[I do believe there is some truth in all mythology and much of the 'facts' occurred in antediluvian times but were later exaggerated and embellished or turned into what we know as myths.]

I agree ..in fact I have read every single ancient text I could find
(Babylonian,Vedic etc ) texts that I have actually come to the conclusion that it is very possible that they could have been the fallen angels .....and that much of what they said and did ,...could have happened actually ..if not in this dimension then maybe the otherworld (spiritual realm) and they told it to men and men wrote it down as their book (their bible of sorts)..
Also I decided that another possibility is that man may have created other beings (Like they are doing now with the Humanism stuff) ..at some point in time ..and a Hercules of old could very well have been a real being..........
Even the bible says what has been before will be again ..nothing new under the sun ...so maybe they were actual beings and maybe some of that stuff really did happen ......

I dont discount anything as being a possible explanation of everything and anything that is written or said or done etc ............
I believe that there is nothing that cant be explained .
God could not be some idiot who would do things,allow things etc that did not have a reasonable explanation for it ..
He is LOGICAL just like we are ..because well ..we are in his image ...



posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 03:40 PM
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Hercules did exist.

I think his Christian name was "Sampson".



posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 03:58 PM
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Oooo nice one Noturtypical .
I havent even considered that as an explanation ...but sure could have been .



posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 05:01 PM
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Originally posted by Azrael75
I am not trying to argue with you here, I am just calling into question Google as the definitive source of this information.


Google isn't the definitive source. It's a seach engine which helps me find sources.


Originally posted by Azrael75
What is the ratio of Catholic churches to Christian chrurches in the country? How many Catholics consider themselves to be Christian? How many Christians consider Catholics all Satanic on a carriage straight to hell being driven by the anti-christ a.k.a. the Pope. See, it is a bit too complicated for that poll to even be remotely accurate.


The poll reflects one thing. Do you believe that Jesus Christ was the son of the living God. It doesn't matter if you are Catholic, protestant, or anything inbetween.


Originally posted by Azrael75
I do not believe these polls are even remotely accurate. For one thing, they never asked me, did they ask you? Who did they ask?


I believe they get their information from if you go to church or not. If you go to a church that considers Jesus to be the Son of God, then you fall into the 80% of America that label themselves as such.


Originally posted by Azrael75
So if I routinely rape and murder toddlers, yet I believe I am a Christian and the phone rings and they ask, I am going to say I am a Christian.

I'm sure they did not poll every single American. They probable get their information from church recrords. Anyone attending a Christian church is numbered. Then they simply gather the information from all the churches and add the numbers up.


Is it really that hard to believe that 80% of America is Christian? Why the hell do you think all politicians claim to be Christian? Because that's where the majority of America is. It doesn't matter if someone is a drunk, and you think because of that they should not be considered a Christian, because THEY consider themselves a Christian by the fact that they believe that Jesus Christ was the son of the living God.



posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 05:03 PM
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I think one could apply a similar argument to the one about Shakespeare - if he didn't exist then someone like him must have done as who came up with all these sayings for example, dozens of which are prevalent today. What inspired all the documents and the believers? Who was behind it all if not a Jesus character?



posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 05:05 PM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Possibly he means to refer to the figure that 80% believe in God? I dunno. But, believing in God doesn't make one a Christian, that's circular reasoning.

Lot's of people check the box labeled "Christian" on forms, that doesn't mean they worship Jesus Christ. That just means they think they are Christians.


You think you are a Christian as well. I'm sure many denominations would say "no, you're not a Christian because you do not believe the way we do". That's besides the point. Of course their are more denominations than hairs on my head. The fact is, if you believe that Jesus Christ was the son of God, then you are put in the category of Christian. Catholics and Protestants disagree on some issues, but believe in the same core principles. This is relative to this discussion because we are discussing Jesus Christ and the belief of Jesus Christ, not denominations.

Of course every single denomination likes to think that they are the few who are correct. If someone claims to believe in Jesus Christ as the son of God, then who are you to question if they are a Christian or not?


Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Exactly! There is rampant Churchianity in America, but practicing, Bible-believing Christianity is less than 10% of the population.


I would say that people that practice what they preach is far less than 10%, but that is not the poll in question. The statistics state that 80% of Americans BELIEVE that Jesus Christ is Lord.



posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 05:11 PM
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Originally posted by Simplynoone
QUOTE[Imagine being looked down at on a daily bases because you are a 'sinner'. Not because of any sin that you committed, you may actually be a very nice person, but simply because you do not believe in Hercules. Imagine having these same people (which you are positive are incorrect) say that they will pray for you because you can't make heads or tails of the Universe, even though you do your best to try. Imagine all of this while simultaneously knowing (or at least believing) that they are the ones that choose to ignore reality, and that the claims they make have absolutely no bases.
Welcome to an atheist's life in America.]

Dear Truth SEE YOUR POST ABOVE ...and tell me who is complaining ?
I posted what I did in regards to your complaints of always being picked on as you say you are.


sigh...

I was only posting that as a response to your post. You asked why Atheists fight for what they believe in. I stated why.
I have determined that 80% of people on ATS don't read my posts. Sorry if that's harsh, but it's just the damn truth.



posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 05:13 PM
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reply to post by rhombus24
 



Originally posted by rhombus24
LMAO

Please man, more than half the world agrees that Jesus did walk the earth, and that muhammed did and all the other 'prophets'. I am catholic but Im not a stupid cathlic, i know whats going on.


More than half the world agreed that the earth was flat when they didn't have the information to prove otherwise. I guess they were right though, huh?

You state that Jesus was despised and therefor would not have been written about. This makes no sense. Some of the most hated people in history have more written about them than the nice guys. If Jesus really was hated among Jews, then it would have sparked a controversy which would be viewable today. People would have written letters to other Churches saying "Do not follow this Jesus guy, he's a false prophet. He claims to be the son of God. What blasphemy. He also contradicts the sabath". People would write about him MORE, not less, if they hated him.



posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 05:21 PM
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reply to post by TruthParadox
 






You think you are a Christian as well. I'm sure many denominations would say "no, you're not a Christian because you do not believe the way we do". That's besides the point. Of course their are more denominations than hairs on my head. The fact is, if you believe that Jesus Christ was the son of God, then you are put in the category of Christian. Catholics and Protestants disagree on some issues, but believe in the same core principles. This is relative to this discussion because we are discussing Jesus Christ and the belief of Jesus Christ, not denominations.

Of course every single denomination likes to think that they are the few who are correct. If someone claims to believe in Jesus Christ as the son of God, then who are you to question if they are a Christian or not?




You shouldn't assume. I'm non-denominational. My walk with Jesus Christ is a personal one. All I need is Him and the Word. The modern church today is in great Apostasy compared to the Church at Philadelphia, today's Church generation is the Lacodian Church is Revelation.

And I wholeheartedly disagree that 'Catholics and Christians agree on the same core principles'. That has NEVER been the case, remember the crusades and the inquisitions? The Christians amongst others, were murdered for centuries by the Catholic church. In fact, the Pope has recently stated that there are other ways to heaven besides Jesus Christ. But we can have this debate in a fresh thread if you wish...




I would say that people that practice what they preach is far less than 10%, but that is not the poll in question. The statistics state that 80% of Americans BELIEVE that Jesus Christ is Lord.


And what is this supposed to prove? Satan also admits that Jesus Christ is Lord. What separates Christians from all other groups on the face of the Earth is whom they worship. You must realize something, anyone can claim they are this and that, but the Bible tells us plainly how we can tell if a person truly is a follow of Jesus Christ or not.



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