The Evidence For Jesus' Existence Is Nothing But Hearsay

I totally get what you're saying but that is also a point I am trying to get across. Many secular scholars who acknowledge Jesus' existence even separate between the two with the terms 'The Historical Jesus' and 'The Jesus of Faith.' It is very possible to accept His existence without accepting the divine claims. And many scholars, most in fact, acknowledge His existence on a historical level. They simply dismiss and disbelieve the extraordinary claims- like we mentioned earlier with Alexander the Great. Or how they did with Socrates, also mentioned above with the Socratic problem. However, I do not see skeptics like on this thread doing such a thing. They wipe out history to justify their skepticism of the divine.

But you then mention this which surprised me:

Originally posted by TruthParadox
If there was another source that stated that existed but did not perform miracles, then the probabilty would be likely and no one would question it.

But there are. Several, in fact. Some that were even mentioned in this very thread. There were many early authors who documented Jesus' existence and historical facts without ever touching on the 'extraordinary stuff.' The thing is, they were not contemporaries and that seems to be the issue at hand with the skeptics in this thread.

[edit on 9/6/2008 by AshleyD]

Originally posted by AshleyD

Originally posted by TruthParadox
If there was another source that stated that existed but did not perform miracles, then the probabilty would be likely and no one would question it.

But there are. Several, in fact. Some that were even mentioned in this very thread. There were many early authors who documented Jesus' existence and historical facts without ever touching on the 'extraordinary stuff.' The thing is, they were not contemporaries and that seems to be the issue at hand with the skeptics in this thread.

[edit on 9/5/2008 by AshleyD]

I think you're missing the point I was making. The main article to BELEIVE Jesus existed claims miracles. Of course there were people who wrote about the possibility of Jesus' existence without mentioning the miracles, but it doesn't matter because their bases was off the writtings which DID support the miracles.

To give an example, Hercules was written with extraordinary events surrounding him, just as Jesus was. If someone today wrote that Hercules did infact exist but that he was a mere mortal, does that make the claim of Hercules existence more plausible? No, because it is based on the source which states otherwise.

Now of course their is also the idea that Jesus existed but that the gospel was full of exagerations and tall tails. The problem with this is that we have no idea what is true or false. Stating that Jesus died on the cross could be just as false as stating that Jesus rose from the dead for all we know.


Edit to add: To sum it up, the only "eye witness" account of Jesus is portrayed as him doing miracles, therefor this is the source that we have to look at. The fact that there are no miracles today (as seen in the NT), proves to me that at the very least, the miracles were false. And, as I stated above, if the miracles are false, then what else is? How much trust can we put in it as a historical document?

[edit on 6-9-2008 by TruthParadox]

Dear Athiests
Why do you have a problem with someone named Jesus if he didnt exist ?
If it is just a fairy tale to you then why do you care ?And spend so much time on it ?
Dont you have other big bangs and lab rats etc ...and other stuff that may be more important ?
I know you have some math problems to figure out dont ya ?
I just dont get it .



[edit on 6-9-2008 by Simplynoone]

reply to post by TruthParadox


So basically you're saying that if there were never any divine claims concerning Jesus, His historicity would most likely not be under so much fire as it is today?

Edit to clarify: As in, He was just an ordinary man, teacher, or philosopher but not necessarily a religious/spiritual/supernatural founder/claimant, what have you. In essence we might be faced with something like the Socratic problem but not necessarily the 'Jesus didn't exist crowd.' Is that correct?

Because that is pretty much what I have been saying since first entering this thread. It's not necessarily the historicity that people are uncomfortable with- it's the ultimate claims of spirituality. They deny the history to deny the spirituality. That is my honest belief.

[edit on 9/6/2008 by AshleyD]

Originally posted by AshleyD
So basically you're saying that if there were never any divine claims concerning Jesus, His historicity would most likely not be under so much fire as it is today?

For the most part. Of course, if there were never any divine claims, then none of us would know who Jesus was anyway, so that's a given.

Originally posted by Simplynoone
Dear Athiests
Why do you have a problem with someone named Jesus if he didnt exist ?
If it is just a fairy tale to you then why do you care ?And spend so much time on it ?
Dont you have other big bangs and lab rats etc ...and other stuff that may be more important ?
I know you have some math problems to figure out dont ya ?
I just dont get it .

Imagine living in a country where 90% of the population believed in Zeus, and Hercules was the son of Zeus. Imagine being looked down at on a daily bases because you are a 'sinner'. Not because of any sin that you committed, you may actually be a very nice person, but simply because you do not believe in Hercules. Imagine having these same people (which you are positive are incorrect) say that they will pray for you because you can't make heads or tails of the Universe, even though you do your best to try. Imagine all of this while simultaneously knowing (or at least believing) that they are the ones that choose to ignore reality, and that the claims they make have absolutely no bases.
Welcome to an atheist's life in America.

What would you do? Ignore it? For how long?

reply to post by AshleyD

Originally posted by AshleyD
Edit to clarify: As in, He was just an ordinary man, teacher, or philosopher but not necessarily a religious/spiritual/supernatural founder/claimant, what have you. In essence we might be faced with something like the Socratic problem but not necessarily the 'Jesus didn't exist crowd.' Is that correct?

Because that is pretty much what I have been saying since first entering this thread. It's not necessarily the historicity that people are uncomfortable with- it's the ultimate claims of spirituality. They deny the history to deny the spirituality. That is my honest belief.
[edit on 9/6/2008 by AshleyD]

Do you deny the history of Hercules to deny the belief in Zeus? The story of Hercules is intertwined with supernatural elements, just as the Bible is. Is it possible that Hercules existed but was simply exagerated about? I suppose it's possible, but is it really probable? This is exactly how I feel about Jesus. I'm sure you can relate as you probably don't believe that Hercules existed.

Dear Truth
I am a Christian I would like to ask you the same ...what kind of torment anger,despising do we get ?Do you think it bothers me in the least ?It doesnt ..for real .

And you know what it doesnt bother me if you want to believe in Aliens .
Or some peetry (I cant spell) dish monsters,So why does it bother you if a Christian wants to believe in some guy named Jesus who said he was God ?
And why do you spend so much time on it ? seriously I devote most of my time doing things I enjoy and reading stuff I believe in (at least most of the time) .
Do you argue fuss and fight with the NEW AGERS too ?They say yall will go off in space crafts and get reprogrammed.Shouldnt that bother you too ?
Do you try to get Christians to think scientific ?(Dont lie to me ) ..Because yes you do ..you say we tell you stuff you dont like to hear (thats pretty much what you said) ...well do you think we enjoy hearing that we will soon be half man and half animal with fake blood and hooked up to some computer that will do my thinking for me >...Thats what yall have in mind for us (the world in general) .
How is that any less gruesome than the End Times Tribulation Events.
In all likely hood if those creepy creatures in Rev are literal then I bet yall are the ones who made them ....
Check it out
Pictures of Insect Men: A Retrospective Analysis of the “Mimic” Trilogy
www.poppolitics.com...

What about this
Reinventing The Ancient Past: Universities Prepare Students For GM Super-Humans / Nephilim
www.raidersnewsnetwork.com...

This is what you scientific minds have in store for ALL OF US .
Maybe you could be right ..
Maybe it wont be God after all who destroys the wicked ones during the trib.
Maybe they destroy themselves with these technological advances that may turn against you ...And maybe even the mark (Digital Angel) and all the creepy things yall are doing to the human bodies may be the reason why those sores come upon men who are marked (Not only a physical mark like digital angel) but knowing the number of his name (Your Math And Scientific stuff that invented all that creepy stuff) And your serving the beast (The creature who is man and satan) ...by altering your own dna and doing all these creepy things to yourselves and to the population *in their foods,water,inviting all to take part in your evil deeds against this fleshly body ...

Check this out all of the creepy crawly things that Scientists will more than likely add human dna to and possibly come up with those Demon Locusts that sound really eerily human but also machine ..I bet yall made those or will make those.
www.raidersnewsnetwork.com...

Yes I believe that Revelation may be comeing clearer now in my mind .
And you know what ..it could be very literal ...I never thought it could be that literal until now .

This is what your promising man ? This is what your saying we dont need a saviour from ? this is what yall are trying to get us to believe in other than our Lord ?

Seriously think about that for a minute .

I think what yall have planned is WAY WORSE and way more wicked and evil than what the Lord had planned for you .

Wait there is more
I am now wondering if that number of his name 666 isnt mans equations he uses to do Scientific creepy stuff by messing with dna .and Humanism stuff.

Also what about the fact they will pray to die but cannot die >(Do you suppose thats because yall did figure out how to keep your bodies alive indefinately with your creepy experiments) ....

Seriously I think you may all be bringing on all of that happens in Rev ..bringing it all on yourselves .

Apologies for not reading the last 10 pages so far, but I have my own research summary to inject here regardless of what has been said:

- the solid evidence for the existence of Jesus is definitely weak. However, some conjecture that this simply means that the Vatican at some later date, used its extensive resources to locate all solid references and evidence of 'Jesus' and remove them, so that it could monopolise what information would become 'truth'.

- there are a dozen older religions than Christianity, that specifically describe a 'saviour', born of a virgin, on December 25th, who ran foul of the local authorities, was killed/crucified on a hill, in between two other criminals.

Either there is some weird recurring saviour that visits mankind on a regular basis, who is born on 25th December etc etc, or some form of secret priest conspiracy group, going back thousands of years, is doing a lot of manipulation. I mean, why rock the boat? If you want to assimilate/secretly control whole nations and cultures, put your sacred building on their sacred sites, take their sacred dates and make them your own, and take their sacred stories and work them into your new brand of religion. If you control the religion, you control the people - this has been true for some time. (These days - it is if you control the food you control the people, and folks, this is just around the corner)

When the priests of the day went to the failing Roman empire and offered them the deal of 'the divine right of kings' - things changed and ever since then the Church has helped run the state in many countries.

All state-sanctioned religions, Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, and Hinduism - are tools used to control the masses. It is as simple as that. They have no more claim on the 'truth' about life than the fenceposts in my backyard.

Duncan

Originally posted by Simplynoone
Dear Truth
I am a Christian I would like to ask you the same ...what kind of torment anger,despising do we get ?Do you think it bothers me in the least ?It doesnt ..for real .

That's because 80% of America is Christian (assuming you live in America). And apparently it does bother you or else you would not be posting this.

Originally posted by Simplynoone
And you know what it doesnt bother me if you want to believe in Aliens .
Or some peetry (I cant spell) dish monsters,So why does it bother you if a Christian wants to believe in some guy named Jesus who said he was God ?

Why does it bother you that it bothers me? And also, for the record, it doesn't bother me that you believe in God. I'm simply posting on a forum stating what I believe in, as are you. What's the problem with this?

Originally posted by Simplynoone
Do you argue fuss and fight with the NEW AGERS too ?They say yall will go off in space crafts and get reprogrammed.Shouldnt that bother you too ?

No, because 80% of America are not New Agers. This means that they are not pushing their beliefs on me like Christians are.

Originally posted by Simplynoone
...well do you think we enjoy hearing that we will soon be half man and half animal with fake blood and hooked up to some computer that will do my thinking for me >...Thats what yall have in mind for us (the world in general) .

What in God's name are you talking about?

Human psychology dictates that we fight for our beliefs. Because of this, I post my beliefs, just as you do. Do you not think that I should fight for what I believe in? I'm sure you would be more satisfied if I simply let ignorance thrive to appease those that don't use reason as a bases for their beliefs. If you don't like what I say, then don't read it. If you're 100% sure that God exists, then you should have nothing to fear from my or any other atheist's arguments.
I love the fact that Christians think they are being attacked more than anyone else when 80% of Americans are Christians.


Let's please simply discuss the topic at hand.

reply to post by TruthParadox


Can you please back up your statement that America is 80% Christian. Please, post your source for this. I am eager to see how they came to this number. I sympathize that it may seem that way, and they are loud enough to be 99% of the population, but please lets not make the christians feel artificially bolstered by letting them think they truly have a standing arm of 80% of the people in this country. I understand how it can seem this way but I really need to see whatever poll or study produced that number.



[edit on 6-9-2008 by Azrael75]

Originally posted by Azrael75
reply to post by TruthParadox

 

Can you please back up your statement that America is 80% Christian. Please, post your source for this. I am eager to see how they came to this number. I sympathize that it may seem that way, and they are loud enough to be 99% of the population, but please lets not make the christians feel artificially bolstered by letting them think they truly have a standing arm of 80% of the people in this country. I understand how it can seem this way but I really need to see whatever poll or study produced that number.

[edit on 6-9-2008 by Azrael75]

I did not simply pull this number out of a hat.

www.adherents.com...

That actually states 85%, but I believe that to be too high.
I've read other surveys that state anywhere from 75%-85% or around that number. Also note that Christianity has been dropping lately, and actually used to be in the 90%.

edit to add: I just realized that the source I gave was from 1997, which would account for the high number. Recent surveys seem to be in the 75%-80% range. Just google it .

[edit on 6-9-2008 by TruthParadox]

reply to post by TruthParadox


Jesus had something to say about those survey poll numbers, and he was the "Chief Statistician"

He said...
"Enter in by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter in by it." Matt 7:13

Just for info..to balance the discussion...

OT out!

Originally posted by TruthParadox

Originally posted by Azrael75
reply to post by TruthParadox

 

Can you please back up your statement that America is 80% Christian. Please, post your source for this. I am eager to see how they came to this number. I sympathize that it may seem that way, and they are loud enough to be 99% of the population, but please lets not make the christians feel artificially bolstered by letting them think they truly have a standing arm of 80% of the people in this country. I understand how it can seem this way but I really need to see whatever poll or study produced that number.

[edit on 6-9-2008 by Azrael75]

I did not simply pull this number out of a hat.

www.adherents.com...

That actually states 85%, but I believe that to be too high.
I've read other surveys that state anywhere from 75%-85% or around that number. Also note that Christianity has been dropping lately, and actually used to be in the 90%.

edit to add: I just realized that the source I gave was from 1997, which would account for the high number. Recent surveys seem to be in the 75%-80% range. Just google it

.

[edit on 6-9-2008 by TruthParadox]

I am not trying to argue with you here, I am just calling into question Google as the definitive source of this information. What is the ratio of Catholic churches to Christian chrurches in the country? How many Catholics consider themselves to be Christian? How many Christians consider Catholics all Satanic on a carriage straight to hell being driven by the anti-christ a.k.a. the Pope. See, it is a bit too complicated for that poll to even be remotely accurate.
Don't get me wrong. I am not arguing with you. I believe there are polls that reflect this. I believe google helps you find them. I do not believe these polls are even remotely accurate. For one thing, they never asked me, did they ask you? Who did they ask? If I go to church Sunday and ask everyone there if they believe in God, I bet I can publish a poll showing 100% of the people in the US believe in God. In fact, let's try a little experiment. Post the poll in question and let's see if anyone on this board at all remembers being polled for that one.
Look at it this way, this is America, one of the most sinful countries around and we revel in it. Underage girls are sold as sex items as prostitutes in the streets and whores on the Disney channel. We divorce and cheat and murder and commit suicide and steal and lie and cheat and on and on and on and on. How about you spend the entire day asking every single person you pass by if they are a Christian. I would love to see the results of that poll. More to the point, I also have no problem beleiving that many of the people that were polled, were liars. I know several "Christians" that would have answered as such in said poll, yet not one other aspect of their life reflects christianity.
So if I routinely rape and murder toddlers, yet I believe I am a Christian and the phone rings and they ask, I am going to say I am a Christian. I will even mean it sincerely, unfortunately, I am apparently a misguided sinner who has lost his way. Now let's just say that everyone in the country was doing such horrible things but then said they were Christian when asked because, after all, they feel guilty in church on Sunday. Would that really mean that 100% of the population was Christian? No, that would mean that 100% of the people asked in a particular poll claimed to be Christian. I need more proof than some poll from '97 that the real number is anywhere near so high as 75%-80%.

reply to post by OldThinker
Hey OldThinker,

Isn't it wonderful how providence works? God knew that the very existence of Jesus would be called into question. How do you get around that? A defamatory record against the person of Jesus left by his enemies in the Talmud.

Surely if he were a work of fiction, there would be no record of railing accusations against him by those who put him to death, huh?

A story about a man named Yeshu can be found in the Talmud. There is debate whether this Yeshu in the Talmud is the same Jesus who later became a Christian divinity.

According to the Talmud, Yeshu was the son of a Jewish woman named Miriam who was betrothed to a carpenter. "Betrothed" means she was legally married to him, but she was not yet living with him or having sexual relations with him. The story says that Miriam was either raped by or voluntarily slept with Pandeira, a Greek or Roman soldier. Miriam than gave birth to Yeshu, who was considered a "mamzer" (bastard), a product of an adulterous relationship. The Talmud describes Yeshu as a heretic who dabbled in sorcery and lead the people astray. Later, the Sanhedrin (the Jewish "Supreme Court") ordered Yeshu stoned to death and his dead body was hung from a tree until nightfall after his death, in accordance with the ancient Jewish punishment for heretics.

So much for hearsay

QUOTE[Imagine being looked down at on a daily bases because you are a 'sinner'. Not because of any sin that you committed, you may actually be a very nice person, but simply because you do not believe in Hercules. Imagine having these same people (which you are positive are incorrect) say that they will pray for you because you can't make heads or tails of the Universe, even though you do your best to try. Imagine all of this while simultaneously knowing (or at least believing) that they are the ones that choose to ignore reality, and that the claims they make have absolutely no bases.
Welcome to an atheist's life in America.]

Dear Truth SEE YOUR POST ABOVE ...and tell me who is complaining ?
I posted what I did in regards to your complaints of always being picked on as you say you are.

Ok so lets just pretend that Jesus didnt really exist ...and that the bible wasnt written by divine inspiration by God .

What does that leave us then ?
That what is written in the book of Rev is what man has in store for us then in the near future .And If that is the case ..then it is you Scientists and Athiests because lately it seems to be yall who really running things lately (all the weird stuff your creating with dna etc) Maybe it was people like you who wrote it .

Thats what I was getting at in my post and it is on topic ...

reply to post by nexusmagazine

All state-sanctioned religions, Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, and Hinduism - are tools used to control the masses. It is as simple as that. They have no more claim on the 'truth' about life than the fenceposts in my backyard.

Where is Christianity state sanctioned?

Don't you mean Catholicism?

Originally posted by Azrael75
reply to post by TruthParadox

 

Can you please back up your statement that America is 80% Christian. Please, post your source for this. I am eager to see how they came to this number. I sympathize that it may seem that way, and they are loud enough to be 99% of the population, but please lets not make the christians feel artificially bolstered by letting them think they truly have a standing arm of 80% of the people in this country. I understand how it can seem this way but I really need to see whatever poll or study produced that number.

I actually think 10% are practicing Christians. Heck, Catholics have more numbers than Christians do by far.

Possibly he means to refer to the figure that 80% believe in God? I dunno. But, believing in God doesn't make one a Christian, that's circular reasoning.

Lot's of people check the box labeled "Christian" on forms, that doesn't mean they worship Jesus Christ. That just means they think they are Christians.

I also find it quite troubling that the Christians are the "delusional" ones, the ones who are the biggest "threat" normal to life on Earth as we know it.

Yet, the atheists don't care the LEAST bit about the Illuminati who worship satan, have all the nukes, and are trying their darnedest to institute their New World Order.

No, those guys get a pass because they don't worship Jesus. LOL!!!!!!

God's 10 Commandments plainly sate "Thou shalt not murder".

Illuminati's FIRST commandment on the Georgia Guidestones is:

"Maintain the Earth's population at 500,000,000."