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Round 2: Sublime620 v semperfortis: The Sky Is Falling

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posted on Sep, 2 2008 @ 10:46 PM
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The topic for this debate is The ‘ChemTrail Plot’ To Spray The Population With Chemicals Is Real.

Sublime620 will be arguing the pro position and will open the debate.
semperfortis will argue the con position.

Each debater will have one opening statement each. This will be followed by 3 alternating replies each. There will then be one closing statement each and no rebuttal.

There is a 10,000 character limit per post.

Any character count in excess of 10,000 will be deleted prior to the judging process.

Editing is strictly forbidden. For reasons of time, mod edits should not be expected except in critical situations.

Opening and closing statements must not contain any images and must have no more than 3 references.

Excluding both the opening and closing statements, only two images and no more than 5 references can be included for each post. Each individual post may contain up to 10 sentences of external source material, totaled from all external sources.

Links to multiple pages within a single domain count as 1 reference but there is a maximum of 3 individual links per reference, then further links from that domain count as a new reference. Excess quotes and excess links will be removed before judging.

The Socratic Debate Rule is in effect. Each debater may ask up to 5 questions in each post, except for in closing statements- no questions are permitted in closing statements. These questions should be clearly labeled as "Question 1, Question 2, etc.

When asked a question, a debater must give a straight forward answer in his next post. Explanations and qualifications to an answer are acceptable, but must be preceded by a direct answer.

This Is The Time Limit Policy

Each debate must post within 24 hours of the timestamp on the last post. If your opponent is late, you may post immediately without waiting for an announcement of turn forfeiture. If you are late, you may post late, unless your opponent has already posted.

Each debater is entitled to one extension of 24 hours. The request should be posted in this thread and is automatically granted- the 24 hour extension begins at the expiration of the previous deadline, not at the time of the extension request.

In the unlikely event that tardiness results in simultaneous posting by both debaters, the late post will be deleted unless it appears in its proper order in the thread.

Judging will be done by a panel of anonymous judges. After each debate is completed it will be locked and the judges will begin making their decision. One of the debate forum moderators will then make a final post announcing the winner.




posted on Sep, 3 2008 @ 09:55 PM
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Opening Statement

I apologize for the delay.

The topic on hand is chemtrails. We all know that chemtrails are the spraying of a chemical from an aircraft in the atmosphere above the Earth.

I want to come right and and remove any idea that chemtrails are completely made up by nutty conspiracy theorists. While the media has not picked up much on the idea of chemtrails, the word has been dropped in Congress. In the resolution H. R. 2977, presented in front of the US House of Representatives in October 2001, the word chemtrail was used to describe an exotic weapon system.

The bill was presented by Representative Kucinich and it refered to the banning of space-based weapons. It did, however, drop this interesting line:

1

(B) Such terms include exotic weapons systems such as--

(i) electronic, psychotronic, or information weapons;

(ii) chemtrails;


Predictably, after revision in the next year, the word chemtrail was audited out.

It's also important to note that spraying chemicals from aircraft is well known. Many nations participate in cloud seeding. Obviously China has been in the news for it's attempts at weather control, but the US is also heavily involved in this activity.

2

China isn't the only place that has attempted these control strategies; several drought-plagued western U.S. states have explored cloud seeding as a way to boost winter snow pack, an important water source. Wyoming launched an $8.8 million cloud-seeding project in 2005 with this aim.


Does anyone still doubt that our government is willing to spray chemicals?

I do not plan to argue much over pictures, and whether or not this picture is a chemtrail and that picture is a contrail. It's a winless situation. Neither side can really prove which is which. However, I can point to evidence that there are planes spraying chemicals, potentially dangerous, in the skies over our very heads.

Not only do we know chemicals are sprayed, many believe the country is already feeling the effects.

3

According to one source, who requested anonymity, one sample taken supposedly contained elements of JP-8 -- jet fuel -- and Ethel Dibromide (EDB), a pesticide which was banned years ago because research showed prolonged exposure caused carcinogenic effects on humans. The source also said that another reportedly contained non-specific bacterial groups, but neither of these could be confirmed independently by WorldNetDaily


This article talks of a spray that contained a banned pesticide. It also mentions some of the effects that many are claiming to have:


Some people have respiratory problems. Others have mouth blisters. Still others are chronically tired. Many people are suffering from a combination of these illnesses, coupled with weight loss, burning mouths and noses, hoarseness, dizziness and disorientation. And they say their symptoms can last for days and even weeks.


So we have:

  • Mention of chemtrails in a US Government document.
  • Possible side-effects and tests confirming illegal spraying.
  • Known spraying done by various governments in the effort to "cloud seed"


This is what I plan to discuss during this debate. For now, I will pass the floor onto semperfortis.



posted on Sep, 4 2008 @ 12:49 AM
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Sublime620 vs. Semperfortis

“The ‘ChemTrail Plot’ To Spray The Population With Chemicals Is Real.”

Debate Tournament: Round 2

Acknowledgments:

I want to thank MemoryShock for his amazing dedication to this Forum of ideas and intellectual battles. The readers and judges and of course my esteemed opponent deserve a round of applause as well. Now on with the debate!

Proposal:

The Semperfortis stance on the debate topic:

To substantiate that : “The ‘ChemTrail Plot’ To Spray The Population With Chemicals Is NOT Real.”

Opening Statement:

Upon examination of the debate topic, it is immediately apparent that my opponent must validate that there is a plot to spray the population with chemicals. Now following the debate lines to a logical conclusion, what the chemicals are is not relevant to the debate, nor is the identity of whoever is spraying them. As such I will not spend undo time on these non-issues. Yet will address them as they are indeed interesting.

So be it the Government, the Masons, the KKK or the International Association of Kindergarten Teachers, is there a Plot in place to spray us with chemicals?

Valid Questions::

Why?

As this debate progresses I will spend some time on this subject for certain. “Why”; a rather small, three letter word that stands out in this debate in a huge way. In order to accept that anyone, even the Kindergarten Teachers, are spraying the population with chemicals, one can not help but ask the question why? We will examine this as we go I promise.

Aside:


Plot:

1. a secret plan or scheme to accomplish some purpose, esp. a hostile, unlawful, or evil purpose: a plot to overthrow the government.

Online Dictionary
I am positive that this will become important later on.

How?

As we walk through this debate looking at the various elements, we will also examine how it is that anyone is supposed to be spraying the population with chemicals. Currently we are a world of over six billion people and one must admit that spraying six billion people with anything is a daunting task if not impossible. (Which I will gladly prove)

What?

We can not possible appropriately examine this subject without asking ourselves exactly what it is that we are supposed to believe we are being sprayed with. Mind Control Substance? Science Fiction; but we will look at it anyway. Population Control Chemicals? If so it is certainly a failure. Happy Drugs? What????

Either way we will look at all of the speculation and the supposition and the hyperbole in order to come to an intellectual determination on Chem-Trails once and for all.

The topic:

I have debated many topics while a member here at ATS and I must confess that I am as excited as I have ever been to have drawn this topic. I have recently been reading the current threads on the topic and I find them fascinating. Not in their scope or their content, but in the idea that intellectuals can so disregard scientific evidence and common sense in order to fulfill what has become a conspiracy in their minds. This I will present to you in more detail as the debate goes on.



Rebuttal:

Let us take a look at some of the things my esteemed opponent has presented to us in his opening post.


Mr. KUCINICH introduced the following bill

the word has been dropped in Congress.



Representative Kucinich? Do you seriously wish to use Kucinich as support in this debate? The man who during a run for the Presidency admitted in public to an encounter with a UFO? While I personally believe in UFO’s, I certainly did not bring it up when applying for my current position.

Guess what else has been “Dropped In Congress” as you put it?



introduced a resolution in protest of the downgrading of Pluto from planetary status. My favorite findings:

"Whereas, downgrading Pluto's status will cause psychological harm to some Californians who question their place in the universe and worry about the instability of universal constants;

Source

So let’s face it, silly legislation is nothing new to the hallowed halls.


It's also important to note that spraying chemicals from aircraft is well known.


Exactly..

Crop Dusting
Cloud Seeding
NASA Experiments to Study the Ionosphere
Firefighting
Etc.

No need for you to spend time proving that man does indeed spray chemicals from aircraft, we can concede that point, yet none are what one would consider a “plot” and therefore not relevant to the debate.

Not much left in my opponents post to rebut, except for this and I only present it to show you, the readers, how it is easy to get off track in a debate.



* Mention of chemtrails in a US Government document.
* Possible side-effects and tests confirming illegal spraying.
* Known spraying done by various governments in the effort to "cloud seed"


None of which shows a “Plot” in any way, shape or form. Perhaps my opponent will enlighten us as we progress.




Socratic Question #1

“How would you, if it was your job, design and implement a spray system capable of spraying 6 billion people?”

Socratic Question #2

“If you were the designer of a plot to spray chemicals on the population, how would you prevent yourself from being effected as well?”

Socratic Question #3

Assuming that you actually believe in a Chem-Trail plot; following the debate topic, what is the motivation for such a plot?”

Socratic Question #4

“Who is it that you think is responsible for any plot to spray the population with chemicals?”


As we progress with this most interesting of debates, let us not forget that my opponent must show you a PLOT, not simply that people spray things into the air. If that were the case I am guilty of Chem-Trails as I have sprayed Wasp and Hornet spray into the air on numerous occasions.

I have read in the threads that many believe that commercial airliners are doing the spraying. This would make sense as they are the only means that would allow a good solid blanketing of an area of the sky; except for several key issues.

Takeoff weight
Flight Paths
And Proof

We will look at each of these as our debate moves forward. They are all fascinating and many experts have spoken out on each subject extensively.

I do not believe that there is a Chem-Trail plot and if you read what I will present to you, I may change your mind as well. I at least hope to entertain you as we go along.

Topics we will cover not listed above, include but are not limited to:

Water Vapor
Off Color Vapor Trails
Conspiracy Angle
Spraying Methods
And
The Anatomy of a Conspiracy

All of which I promise to touch on and I sincerely hope it fascinates you as much as it has me.

By the end of the debate, I will leave you with no choice but to conclude that:

“The ‘ChemTrail Plot’ To Spray The Population With Chemicals Is NOT Real.”

Thank you

Semper



posted on Sep, 4 2008 @ 07:30 PM
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First Rebuttal


    It seems my opponent has jumped the gun a bit on me.


    Originally posted by semperfortis
    Not much left in my opponents post to rebut, except for this and I only present it to show you, the readers, how it is easy to get off track in a debate.


    I was merely laying the ground work for my argument. No need to get too in depth in the introduction. I wanted to dispel any idea that spraying chemicals, even hazardous ones, from planes is not unheard of. It even gets some press occasionally.

    It also appears my opponent is going to try to pick apart every statement I make in regards to whether it fits into some sort of "plot". Don't let that fool you. Most bad "plots" aren't run by some cabal of men smoking cigars in a dark room. It's never that simple.

    Other than that, there is not much to rebut in my opponents opening statement. He did say that we don't need to identify the "who", which is fine with me, but I will be pointing in our government's direction.

    He also said:

    Originally posted by semperfortis
    Currently we are a world of over six billion people and one must admit that spraying six billion people with anything is a daunting task if not impossible. (Which I will gladly prove)


    I am not aware of where he got the figure 6 billion, or why be believes that I am arguing that the entire world is being sprayed.

    Response to Socratic Questions

    Question 1: “How would you, if it was your job, design and implement a spray system capable of spraying 6 billion people?”

    I am not aware of ever stating that 6 billion people are getting sprayed. I don't even know where you are getting this information. 6 billion people getting sprayed how often? Why are you trying to control the terms of my argument?

    Question 2: “If you were the designer of a plot to spray chemicals on the population, how would you prevent yourself from being effected as well?”

    I suppose I would start by not living in an area that was sprayed. I don't suppose that would be to hard.

    Question 3: "Assuming that you actually believe in a Chem-Trail plot; following the debate topic, what is the motivation for such a plot?”

    I believe, in a nut shell, population control. Any scientist will tell you that the greatest problem we face as humans right now is... ourselves. There are too many of us, and we are growing at an exponential rate.

    Another just as likely reason is weapons testing. The military is no stranger to unethical means of testing and spraying our skies is a perfect way to gain knowledge of potential future weapons. It also parallels population control.

    Question 4: “Who is it that you think is responsible for any plot to spray the population with chemicals?”

    Why of course, it's the ever protective, ever perfect, United States government.

    To the Issues

    Now that I have answered my opponent's questions, I'd like to get back on track and focus on the topic. I have shown that chemtrails - the spraying of chemicals from an airplane - is possible. I have shown that it has been done in the past. Now we will examine what is being sprayed, why, and what the effects of the spraying are.

    [1]
    In this article, a foremost researcher of chemtrails, Clifford Carnicom, met with a friend of his in the military. This details what his informant relayed to him:


    1. The operation is a joint project between the Pentagon and the pharmaceutical industry.

    2. The Pentagon wishes to test biological diseases for war purposes on unsuspecting populations.

    4. The bacteria and viruses are freeze-dried and then placed on fine filaments for release.

    5. The metals released along with the diseases heat up from the sun, creating a perfect environment for the bacteria and viruses to thrive in the air supply.


    Now, this is a second hand story from an “expert” on the subject. It is obviously not the most reliable source of information. But is the story not believable? Would it really be that hard to believe that biological weapons were tested on citizens, both for weaponry and population control?

    Of course you might say, “But sub1ime, wouldn’t all of this spraying leave some sort of trail? Wouldn’t there be changes in the atmosphere?" With that, I present my second piece of evidence:

    2

    In a recent study published… document for the first time that air around clouds that was previously considered clear is actually filled with particles that are neither cloud droplets nor typical dry aerosols such as dust and air pollution. Worldwide, up to 60 percent of the atmosphere labeled as cloud-free in satellite observations is actually filled with this twilight zone of in-between particles, according to the study.


    So to sum it up, scientists are puzzled by the finding of these new particles in the upper atmosphere that they have not noticed in the past. Did NASA, perhaps, just discover the evidence chemtrails leave behind? More evidence:

    3

    According to CBC Newsworld (Aug 29, 1999), 'Many in the community have reported respiratory problems and strange aches and pains. Town council heard that some believe military jets are dropping material over the town as part of a weather experiment' - after laboratory tests confirmed the presence of aluminum in rainwater falling through chemtrails over Espanola five-times higher than provincial health safety limits.

    The Ministry of Defense eventually replied, 'It's not us.'

    If that isn’t compelling enough:


    Photographs of heavy aerial gridding over Santa Fe, New Mexico and B.C.'s Sunshine Coast also contradict official weather data showing high altitude humidity at the same times and locations to be less than one third the moisture needed for contrails to form.



    In Houston, Texas, Mark Steadham conducted a 62 day survey of jet traffic over that busy hub. Using a computer program called Flight Explorer, Steadham identified commercial and military aircraft sharing the same sky. The contrails from commercial jets dissipated within 22 seconds. The plumes left behind at the same time by big military jets persisted for four to eight hours.


    This details studies that have been done to differentiate normal contrails from chemtrails. I think it is important to point out that people aren’t just saying, “Hey look, that plane is making a cloud behind it. It must be a chemtrail!” There is valid research behind these claims.

    More first-hand accounts of chemtrails:


    The 'specifics' came in March the following year, when Maine radio reporter S. T. Brendt called a senior Air Traffic Control manager after she, her news director and staff counted 370 plumes filling skies normally devoid of commercial aircraft… As they flew north into Canada, he said, the planes were spraying a substance that showed up as a 'haze' on Air Traffic Control radar screens.

    This characteristic signature of radar beams reflecting off fine aluminum particles confirmed the Espanola lab tests. It also matched a patent issued to Hughes Aircraft Corp. in 1994. This practical blueprint described spraying reflective aluminum particles into Earth's greenhouse atmosphere, 'For the Reduction of Global Warming'.


    The spraying left a haze on radar screens. I can’t continue to quote this entire article, but I do suggest reading it in spare time. It talks about lab tests done on potential spraying of aluminum in the atmosphere to slow down global warming. It has numerous first-hand accounts of chemtrails. One last bit that I found interesting:


    According to a New York Times feature, 'Tiny Bits of Soot Tied to Illnesses' (April 21, 2001), numerous health studies show that 'microscopic motes - composed of metals, carbon and other ingredients - are able to infiltrate the tiniest compartments in the lungs and pass readily into the bloodstream and have been most strongly tied to illness and early death, particularly in people who are already susceptible to respiratory problems.'


    It's basically an NY Times article about the infiltration of the lungs by tiny metals and carbons (IN THE AIR) that are closely related to illness and death. That's about as on target as I can get. While the tiny soots of metal are mostly blamed on coal burning and industry in general, I don't believe "chemtrails" were on the checklist for scientists to consider blaming.

    And hey, it's the perfect cover up for population reduction. That way, when everyone gets lung cancer, they can just continue to blame smoking. It's win-win. People die, they tax more, and continue spraying the skies.

    Socratic Questions

    Socratic Question #1: The global population is the number one problem facing humanity in the 21st century, especially in countries like India, China, and the US. Knowing this, would you put it above any government to take matters into their own hands in trying to reduce population?

    Socratic Question #2: Assuming our government wanted to covertly reduce population significantly, how do you suppose they would do it?

    Socratic Question #3: Do you believe the American government is incapable of committing atrocities against its own people?

    The floor is again yours, semperfortis.



posted on Sep, 5 2008 @ 01:48 AM
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Sublime620 vs. Semperfortis

“The ‘ChemTrail Plot’ To Spray The Population With Chemicals Is Real.”

Debate Tournament: Round 2

Reply #1

Proposition:

I am going to spend some time here showing you the flaws in my opponent’s proposition, but first I want to take a little of your time and discuss Conspiracies.

There are so very many things happening in this world, both covert and overt, that we should be more aware of. Global Warming, Oil, War, etc; Unusual Creatures, Mysterious Places and the Ocean Depths; all to name a few. Yet we look to the sky and we see the perfectly normal contrails left by passing aircraft and all of a sudden our minds are filled with fairy tale ideas that the big bad government is again perpetrating some conspiracy to either kill us off, take our first born children or use us as laboratory rats.

Remember that Sigmund Freud said that sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar.

Rebuttal:


that spraying chemicals, even hazardous ones, from planes is not unheard of.


Crop Dusting is very common.


my opponent is going to try to pick apart every statement I make in regards to whether it fits into some sort of "plot"


Correct. It’s called a debate my friend.


I am not aware of where he got the figure 6 billion


Current Population of the Earth, give or take a few hundred million.


Semper aksed:
Question 1: “How would you, if it was your job, design and implement a spray system capable of spraying 6 billion people?”

Sublime620 replied:
I am not aware of ever stating that 6 billion people are getting sprayed. I don't even know where you are getting this information. 6 billion people getting sprayed how often? Why are you trying to control the terms of my argument?


As per the debate rules, I again request an answer to the above stated question. Remember my valued opponent; the answer needs to be a “Straight Forward Answer” as per the rules. You may feel free to deflect my statements that you are not comfortable with, but alas, you must answer my Socratic Questions.


Semper Asked:
Question 2: “If you were the designer of a plot to spray chemicals on the population, how would you prevent yourself from being effected as well?”

Sublime620 Replied:
I suppose I would start by not living in an area that was sprayed. I don't suppose that would be to hard.


And yet as we will see in more detail later; your proposition that this is being done for the purpose of population control would presume that vast areas of at least the North American Continent would need to be sprayed with massive amounts of chemicals to even begin to affect a significant portion of the population.

Socratic Question #1

“If you were part of some mystical plot to spray and as you have stated, wanted to live in a different area; please answer directly how you would determine where to live that would be safe: taking into account such things as wind drift, pressure regions and the Jet Stream?”


Semper Asked:
Question 3: "Assuming that you actually believe in a Chem-Trail plot; following the debate topic, what is the motivation for such a plot?”

Sublime620 Replied:
I believe, in a nut shell, population control. Any scientist will tell you that the greatest problem we face as humans right now is... ourselves. There are too many of us, and we are growing at an exponential rate.

Another just as likely reason is weapons testing. The military is no stranger to unethical means of testing and spraying our skies is a perfect way to gain knowledge of potential future weapons. It also parallels population control.


As you can clearly see from your own words above, you have conceded to my argument. You state that you believe we are being sprayed for population control, yet you also believe that we are growing at an “exponential rate”. How is this possible? For your own theory to work, one or the other must be false. I will let you pick which one.

For weapons testing to be effective, there must be results and those results must be conclusive and recordable. Please show us where your chemtrail theory produces such determinative results.


Semper Asked:
Question 4: “Who is it that you think is responsible for any plot to spray the population with chemicals?”

Sublime620 Replied:
Why of course, it's the ever protective, ever perfect, United States government.


Silly me, of course the U.S. Government is to blame; they are after all to blame for almost everything we can imagine. Why would this be any different?

So, let’s see real quick what it is my opponent is proposing.

Population Control:

So the U.S. Government that regularly places men and women into space, splits the atom and is developing a Quantum Computer, is using chem-trails for population control and yet as stated by my opponent the population is growing exponentially. (And “I” thought the government was incompetent)

Weapons Testing:

Now that is a leap of gigantic proportions. I for one have not heard of massive numbers of people dropping dead under the flight paths of aircraft. Now what kind of a weapon system could the government be developing? Perhaps a subtle poison that makes people die from old age?


In this article, a foremost researcher of chemtrails, Clifford Carnicom


Your “Foremost Researcher” my good and valued opponent has made the front page of;


Quintessence of the Loon

Loon

I would question his research if I were you. I would also be more careful in presenting source material as your link is a blog with absolutely no scientific references whatsoever. Simply opinions of a radio show host with an agenda against Bush. (And apparently against Jews as well) He states that Bush (Senior) is one of the main players.


7. Most of the "players" are old friends and business partners of the senior Bush.

Your Link

Socratic Question #2

“Exactly how long do “YOU” think that the Chem-Trail theory has been happening?”



It is obviously not the most reliable source of information.


You think?


Would it really be that hard to believe that biological weapons were tested on citizens


It’s not “that” hard to believe there is a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow, but most of us have accepted that there is not.


So to sum it up, scientists are puzzled by the finding of these new particles in the upper atmosphere that they have not noticed in the past. Did NASA, perhaps, just discover the evidence chemtrails leave behind?


Probably not….

From your own link:


What we think we're seeing is a transitional zone where clouds are beginning to form or are dying away, and where humidity causes dry particles to absorb water and get bigger."



If that isn’t compelling enough:


Did you really read and research your “link #3”?

From your own link


altnews provides the wherewithal for visitors to
join in the discussion on forums others might wish to suppress.


Another Blog. Zero scientific data.


There is valid research behind these claims.


Please provide some.

Not personal opinions, or blogs, but please provide substantial and creditable research material.

I for one would love to see it.


It's basically an NY Times article about the infiltration of the lungs by tiny metals and carbons (IN THE AIR)


Better. The New York Times at least.

In order to address this reference of my opponents, I will present this.


Volcanos Can Impact Air Quality

Volcanic ash can travel hundreds to thousands of miles downwind from a volcano. Fresh volcanic ash is gritty, abrasive, sometimes corrosive, and always unpleasant. Although ash is not highly toxic, it can trouble infants, the elderly and those with respiratory ailments.

Air Now

A scientific study, not a Blog or personal horror story. And a valid explanation as well.

(Also not Chem-Trails)


That way, when everyone gets lung cancer, they can just continue to blame smoking.


Are you saying that smoking does not in fact cause respiratory ailments?


Socratic Questions

Socratic Question #1: The global population is the number one problem facing humanity in the 21st century, especially in countries like India, China, and the US. Knowing this, would you put it above any government to take matters into their own hands in trying to reduce population?


Answer:
1. I don’t believe that “global population” is even near the number one problem facing humanity.
2. And “NOT” knowing this, my answer is (Not above such, but not without oversight or discovery)


Socratic Question #2: Assuming our government wanted to covertly reduce population significantly, how do you suppose they would do it?


Answer:

The simplest and most effect way is of course drinking water. However one could also consider that most children in the U.S. are now born in hospitals, so prenatal care and subsequent birth medications could be altered to effective “neuter” the population. Glad you asked this question as it clearly illustrates the absolute ridiculous nature of Chem-Trails as their suspected use. There are far more “testable” and “effective” methods to achieve far more reliable results. Common sense.


Socratic Question #3: Do you believe the American government is incapable of committing atrocities against its own people?


Not incapable, but I think they would use far more effective methods.

Running short on character count my friends, so I will address the difference in Military and Civilian aircraft and their engine emissions, as well has the weather aspect of proposed Chem-Trails.

Yet so far it has become more and more apparent that:

“The ‘ChemTrail Plot’ To Spray The Population With Chemicals Is NOT Real.”

Thank you

Semper



posted on Sep, 5 2008 @ 05:55 PM
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Second Rebuttal


Originally posted by semperfortis
Remember that Sigmund Freud said that sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar.


Yes, and he also said that I am jealous of my father because he gets to sleep with my mother. I'll take it with a grain of salt.

But even if a cigar is sometimes just a cigar, then sometimes it isn't. Perhaps sometimes a cigar is a device of such when inhaled (like chemtrails) can cause lung problems and even cancer... oh wait.

But enough of the tomfoolery. It appears my opponent thinks this debate is a joke. With comments, such as the ones below, it because hard to really take anything he says seriously:


Crop Dusting is very common.



Correct. It’s called a debate my friend.



Current Population of the Earth, give or take a few hundred million.


I do not prefer arguing with sarcasm, but we can go that route if need be.

Yes, crop dusting is common. But is that even relevant to this issue?

And while he's correct, this is a debate, I hope my opponent was not offended that I called him out on putting words in my mouth and jumping the gun.

Lastly, I think it's important to note again, that yes, I am not sure where he got the 6 billion figure from. While I am impressed that he was able to gather that whole number statistic about the planet, I am not sure where he got the idea (AGAIN) that I ever stated the entire world was getting sprayed.

I had to go off on this tangent to point out the extents my opponent will go to get us off topic. He also seems to like to control the issue and tell you what I believe.

Please, when reading this debate, do not let my opponent tell you what my opinions on the matter are.

 



As per the debate rules, I again request an answer to the above stated question. Remember my valued opponent; the answer needs to be a “Straight Forward Answer” as per the rules. You may feel free to deflect my statements that you are not comfortable with, but alas, you must answer my Socratic Questions.


I don't even know what my opponent wants me to answer. How to spray 6 billion people?

I suppose I would design it much like I would if I wanted to spray 6 million people, except on a global scale. Does that answer your question? Let's not get too off topic, though. Again, the only person talking about 6 billion people is my opponent.


your proposition that this is being done for the purpose of population control would presume that vast areas of at least the North American Continent would need to be sprayed with massive amounts of chemicals to even begin to affect a significant portion of the population.


Again, my opponent attempts to form my own thesis. Impressive, I suppose.

Is my opponent really suggesting that the entire country would have to be sprayed to reduce population? Yeah, that's a great idea. Let's spray everyone, that way when everyone dies, we'll have no one left.

That's not called population reduction, that's called extermination.


As you can clearly see from your own words above, you have conceded to my argument. You state that you believe we are being sprayed for population control, yet you also believe that we are growing at an “exponential rate”. How is this possible? For your own theory to work, one or the other must be false. I will let you pick which one.


Again, my opponent is not understanding the situation. Firstly, populations in general grow exponentially.

1

Exponential Growth

If a population has a constant birth rate through time and is never limited by food or disease, it has what is known as exponential growth. With exponential growth the birth rate alone controls how fast (or slow) the population grows.


Make sense? As long as a population has a steady birth rate, and does not run into lack of food, lack of water, or a major plague of sorts, it's growth is known as exponential.

For instance, had the bird flu taken out 1/4 of the country, our growth would have ceased to be exponential for that time period.

The United States current exponential growth rate is currently 0.883%. That's a good .4% below the global average. The slowing growth rate can be traced back to a few of key reasons:

1) We are more advanced than much of the rest of the world. Children are not considered nearly as much of an asset here in America as much of the rest of the world.

2) Education lowers birth rates. Women often forgo having children so that they may further their careers.

3) Disease

The third, disease, is enough to lower our exponential growth, but it has not yet reversed it.

2
3


"We have seen a gradual drop in lung cancer, especially in men, as smoking rates have gone down in this country. But there is no such downtrend in people who have never smoked.



Nation-wide statistics indicate that while some types of cancer are occurring less frequently, the rates of others are still surging upward.


Yes, it appears a yet to be identified source is causing cancer to be on the rise.


What the lung association and other experts are telling people about the risk to never-smokers are their best guesses — that it may be caused by yet unproven toxic exposures



Did you really read and research your “link #3”?


While I appreciate your snobbishness on the issue, I must ask, did you even read it? Perhaps if you did, you might have noticed that while it was a blog, each individual source of information was not. None of that was even written by the blogger, it was taken from other sources. If you are going to critique my sources, please take the time to read them.

My opponent then asked me to provide him with more scientific data (as if he wouldn't just dismiss it with sarcasm and no real rebuttal like he has on the previous posts). But hey, I'm a man of the people, and here is some more examples of chemtrail testing:

4

KSLA News 12 had the sample tested at a lab. The results: A high level of barium, 6.8 parts per million, (ppm). That's more than three times the toxic level set by the Environmental Protection Agency, or EPA.

Armed with these lab results about the high levels of barium found in our sample, we decided to contact the Louisiana Department of Environmental Quality. They told us that, 'yes,' these levels are very unusual.


Answer to Socratic Questions:

Question #1: “If you were part of some mystical plot to spray and as you have stated, wanted to live in a different area; please answer directly how you would determine where to live that would be safe: taking into account such things as wind drift, pressure regions and the Jet Stream?”

Honestly, I'm not a meteorologist. That's why I'm not arguing about what a contrail v chemtrail looks like. I'm not going to argue over jet streams, or pressure regions.

I will say that I believe it would be fairly easy to spray and still not be affected. Stay inside as much as possible during times when the region is toxic. Have an unaffected water source.

After all, the people who are spraying would have access to the necessary data, would they not?

Question #2:“Exactly how long do “YOU” think that the Chem-Trail theory has been happening?”

From most of the reading I can gather, it appears that people began to start noticing things within the past decade. I would tend to agree with that. It also fits with the idea of population reduction since much of the effects would not be noticed yet.



posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 03:22 PM
link   
Sublime620 vs. Semperfortis

“The ‘ChemTrail Plot’ To Spray The Population With Chemicals Is Real.”

Debate Tournament: Round 2

Reply #2

Ladies and Gentlemen; what happens when a debater can’t adequately address the subject matter? Why they address the opponent.


It appears my opponent thinks this debate is a joke. With comments, such as the ones below, it because hard to really take anything he says seriously:

I do not prefer arguing with sarcasm

called him out on putting words in my mouth and jumping the gun.

I had to go off on this tangent to point

He also seems to like to control the issue and tell you what I believe.


It goes like that all through the post.

The good thing for us, is that I now have little to rebut and so will be addressing some of the really interesting concepts surrounding the debate topic.

But first some necessary minor rebuttal:


Firstly, populations in general grow exponentially.


Thus again defeating your own postulation of Chem-Trail population control. Think of the millions that must be expended each year, perhaps billions, on a project with remarkably negative results.


The slowing growth rate can be traced back to a few of key reasons:


Funny that Chem-Trails was not listed.. hmmm


Yes, it appears a yet to be identified source is causing cancer to be on the rise.


Yet your own source says this.


that it may be caused by yet unproven toxic exposures, such as asbestos, radon, arsenic, air pollution, and certainly secondhand smoke. Studies now blame at least 3,000 lung cancer deaths every year on exposure to secondhand smoke.

But she did grow up in a town with an active copper smelter, and well remembers the years when smelter smoke filled the neighborhood.


It would appear that you are doing a fine job of dispelling the Chem-Trail myth all by yourself; yet I shall stumble on.


and here is some more examples of chemtrail testing:


Really?

From your own source:


But he's still a bit skeptical about chemtrails at the moment, especially considering that his Poison Control Center has seen no calls about barium exposure.


Perhaps we should all be a “bit more skeptical” until the CDC or Poison Control receives at least one call.


After all, the people who are spraying would have access to the necessary data, would they not?


I don’t know. Until you tell us who is responsible for this insidious plot, we can not begin to surmise this information.


It also fits with the idea of population reduction since much of the effects would not be noticed yet.


Socratic Question #1

“Exactly how long are the suspects in this alleged plot supposed to live, if the “plot” takes decades?”

Enough fun; now on with the debate:

Proposition:

Contrails


A contrail is the condensation trail that is left behind by a passing jet plane. Contrails form when hot humid air from jet exhaust mixes with environmental air of low vapor pressure and low temperature. Vapor pressure is just a fancy term for the amount of pressure that is exerted by water vapor itself (as opposed to atmospheric, or barometric, pressure which is due to the weight of the entire atmosphere above you). The mixing occurs directly behind the plane due to the turbulence generated by the engine.


Especially:


Persistence of contrails is neither an indication that they contain some kind of chemical, nor that it is some kind of spray. As a matter of fact, sailors have known for some time to look specifically at the patterns and persistence of jet contrails for weather forecasting. On days where the contrails disappear quickly or don't even form, they can expect continuing good weather, while on days where they persist, a change in the weather pattern may be expected.

National Weather Service

As we can see here, “Contrails” have a perfectly logical and scientific explanation. The link provides some very interesting reading regarding the subject that for the sake of brevity I could not include.

Remember that part of the anatomy of a conspiracy is the “need” to believe in that conspiracy. That “belief” is diametrically opposed to any possibility of accepting a logical explanation.

Commercial Aircraft Contrails:

While I was going to post some pertinent “ex” material for all of us to examine on this subject, the more I read the more and more ridiculous the idea of using commercial airlines to “dump” anything on the public became. In light of commercial payloads, passenger weights and the “Maximum Takeoff Weight” of Commercial Airliners, the idea that a Commercial Jet could even carry a significant amount of anything other than cargo and passengers is ludicrous. Want to know what the contrails are behind commercial aircraft? See the link above.

Military Delivery Systems:

When I first started reading on this topic, a thought kept nagging at the back of my mind. Manpower.

Skeptics would have you believe that the United States Military is stretched thin in our engagement in Iraq and our commitments to maintain troops all over the world. Yet they also want you to believe that there is some world wide plot to spray the population with chemicals for some unknown nefarious reason.

While there is a lot of information on the “why” they may be doing it, even the “Yes” they are doing it; there is remarkably little on “How” they are doing it and more importantly, “How they are getting away with it.”

It is simple to understand why the contrails of Military Aircraft will be different than those of their closely related cousins, commercial aircraft. The Federal regulations controlling the manufacture and use of jet engines does not apply to military aircraft.


In the United States, since aviation noise became a public issue in the late 1960s, governments have enacted legislative controls. Aircraft designers, manufacturers, and operators have developed quieter aircraft and better operating procedures.

Wiki

Perhaps my opponent’s admission of the recent “interest” in Contrails and the resultant myth of Chem-Trails is actually easily explained.

There is little doubt that aircraft pollute and this pollution is in the form of engine emissions. Not Chem-Trails; just plain old boring emissions.



• Improving engine efficiency tends to make NOx and contrails
Worse
• Aircraft typically have greater impact per unit of fuel burned
• “Solutions” for global climate will require unprecedented action
(demand management/regulations, electric vehicles, contrail avoidance,
etc.)

Scientific Understanding 1999 vs 2003


So here we are debating whether or not the Big Bad Old United States Government is killing us off for some unknown reason by a method any first year physics student would dismiss as impractical. Yet still we look to the sky and we see these suspicious white trails of vapor and we can only imagine. Do we look to science for the answer? Nope; we just make up our own answer that fits into our mindset. Blame, Blame, Blame. Or is it more likely the current popular stance of the day to be pointing fingers at the government? We all want to be popular.

I would, by my very nature and what I do for a living, look for other methods; methods far more practical, such as drinking water and prenatal care as mentioned earlier. If I so chose to believe the government is killing me off. Vaccinations, the manipulation of air conditioning fluids as well as commercial fertilizers are all far more practical methods to feed the population some chemicals in an underhanded manner.

If I was a genius, I sure would not try it by aerial spraying and the leaving behind evidence in the form of white lines in the sky.

If I am completely wrong, the United States needs to hire another genius to be in charge of what ever plot my opponent believes in. This one is not doing too well.

Socratic Question #2

“If you were the scientist in charge of this “plot”, what method would you use to either “Test Military Weapons” or as “Population control”?

Socratic Question #3

“What specific section of the United States Government do you think is in charge of this “plot”?”

Socratic Question #4

“How do you think that such a huge undertaking as spraying the population with chemicals has been maintained for decades (As you have stated) without any real proof?”

Without a doubt, we are more and more coming to the conclusion that:

“The ‘ChemTrail Plot’ To Spray The Population With Chemicals Is NOT Real.”

Thank you

Semper


[edit on 6-9-2008 by MemoryShock]



posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 08:48 PM
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Third Rebuttal


Thus again defeating your own postulation of Chem-Trail population control. Think of the millions that must be expended each year, perhaps billions, on a project with remarkably negative results.


See, there's this funny thing about population growth: If more people are being born than dying... there's still growth. I've shown the statistics. Cancer and other diseases are on the rise from an "unknown toxic agent".


Yet your own source says this.


Yes, let's again view what my own source says:


that it may be caused by yet unproven toxic exposures, such as asbestos, radon, arsenic, air pollution, and certainly secondhand smoke. Studies now blame at least 3,000 lung cancer deaths every year on exposure to secondhand smoke.


Did you want it to say chemtrails? It said there is an unproven source causing cancer to be on the rise. The article then listed a few possible causes, but not the cause (hence the word "unknown").


Funny that Chem-Trails was not listed.. hmmm


Funny, I thought I referenced it in the third reason for population growth reduction: Disease.

We'll talk more about this later in my post.


I don’t know. Until you tell us who is responsible for this insidious plot, we can not begin to surmise this information.


Funny, I remember you saying this in your very first post:


what the chemicals are is not relevant to the debate, nor is the identity of whoever is spraying them. As such I will not spend undo time on these non-issues. Yet will address them as they are indeed interesting.

So be it the Government, the Masons, the KKK or the International Association of Kindergarten Teachers, is there a Plot in place to spray us with chemicals?


Has my opponent changed his mind on the criteria of what I need to prove? Again, trying to control my argument is not going to work.

My opponent then spent an inordinant amount of time discussing contrails v. chemtrails. That's fine, he can argue with himself on that topic for now. I will answer his Socratic Questions before I move on to my final proposal.

Answers to Socratic Questions

Question 1: “Exactly how long are the suspects in this alleged plot supposed to live, if the “plot” takes decades?”

Ask an Oncologist how long it takes cancer to kill. Everything doesn't always work with finites - especially when it comes to cancer. Some people live, some don't.

Possibly I need to point out again that I have never said that people are dropping like flies all over the place. I am only in fact pointing to a marked increase in toxic levels around the country and rises in disease.

Question 2: “If you were the scientist in charge of this “plot”, what method would you use to either “Test Military Weapons” or as “Population control”?

Well, chemical spraying is really a great method because it kills multiple birds with one stone. It can temporarily affect both the air and water supply simultaneously, while also being covert.

I am quite sure that spraying would not be the only way tested or used to deliver the poisons.

Question 3: “What specific section of the United States Government do you think is in charge of this “plot”?”

Well if we knew that, we wouldn't be having this debate would we?

Question 4: “How do you think that such a huge undertaking as spraying the population with chemicals has been maintained for decades (As you have stated) without any real proof?”

Again, since we are having this debate, I would suggest that evidence has come out. But really, what kind of proof would you expect to come out?

If the government was spraying people with chemicals from aircrafts, what kind of evidence would you expect to come out? Let's list them:

  • Contrails look different
  • Major diseases increase in occurance
  • Increases of chemicals found in groundwater
  • Patents and designs of planes built to spray chemicals covertly


Funny, I've provided all of that so far (except the last - which I'm getting to now) and you've yet to be impressed. I suppose a confession would be better?
 


What Do You Think They Are Spraying From This Plane?



This device is known as:

Modular Aerial Spray Systems (MASS)

It is designed and used by the USAF. So apprently there are planes spraying all over the country, yet my opponent can explain them all away as contrails.

Impressive.

1
Of course, we all know my opponent is going to say, "OMG that link has chemtrails in it and is clearly not a valid source." Unfortunately, I don't have time to wait for that to happen, so without further ado, let's look at the USAF spraying activities:

2
1. INTRODUCTION. FY 07 was the thirty-fifth year of aerial spray operations as a Department of Defense (DoD) resource assigned to the US Air Force Reserve. The purpose of this mission is to provide aerial spray support to US military forces worldwide as prescribed in DoD Instruction 4150.7, DoD Pest Management Program.

So I suppose that answers your question a bit. The DoD probably has a hand in it. But lets look into this a bit further. Why do they have such a system?

Mosquitos

Funny enough, they don't seem to mention exactly what they are spraying. They left that part out.

The first site goes into more detail about the effects of this spraying program:


Many of the toxins we find build up over time in the body, a long slow poisoning which has been making its presence felt in many areas of the world in the form of cancers, leukemia, sterility, birth defects, learning disorders, immune deficiency problems, etc. These are on the rise, any good researcher can find the records.


Again, this is what I have pointing to all along. My opponent cannot seem to grasp the concept. He thinks that every time chemicals are sprayed (on all 6 Billion people for some reason) that everyone should drop dead immediately. Unfortunately, this isn't the movies.

3
A USAF website detailing over 30 years of spraying.


The Department of Defense (DoD) tasks the 910th Airlift Wing of the U.S. Air Force Reserve to maintain an aerial spray capability. The 910th is home to the DoD’s only fixed-wing aerial spray unit.


But what exactly are we being sprayed with?

4

Could (inventor of the hydrogen bomb) Edward Teller’s proposal to reduce global warming to the U.S. be involved? Teller’s proposal involves spraying minute aluminum particles to deflect the sun’s harmful ultraviolet rays, but still allow the Earth’s heat to rise through them. This seems to be supported by rainwater tests after heavy spraying in Espanola, Canada, which contained seven times the allowable limit of aluminum. In this instance, the areas with the least ultraviolet protection, as the Southwest, would be the heaviest sprayed. Most often, this does not seem to be the case.


This article suggests that aluminum is being sprayed to counter global warming. Coincidentally enough, spraying aluminum would be an effective way to counter population growth without being too obvious:

5

A simple google search will show the many links of aluminum to cancer. Studies have been conducted relating aluminum toxicity to breast cancer. This website also details further issues caused by aluminum toxicity:


Abundant in today's environment and toxic in excessive quantities, aluminum is mostly absorbed through the skin, lungs, and intestinal tract. Aluminum toxicity seems to affect the bones (causing brittleness or osteoporosis), kidneys, stomach, and brain. Research suggests that it may also contribute to Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, dementia, and other neurological disorders.


So... cancer, birth defects, Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, birth defects, and other neurological disorders.

It is water soluble. It can dissolve into lakes, streams, rivers, and any other water supply you can think of. If sprayed, it can bind to small particles and suspend in the air. Plants will ingest the water toxified by aluminum and take up the aluminum.

Spraying with aluminum would be an effective way to slow population expansion without being too obvious. Previously my opponent asked:

“How do you think that such a huge undertaking as spraying the population with chemicals has been maintained for decades (As you have stated) without any real proof?”

Well, the answer to that is easy. If we had indisputable proof of chemical spraying, the government wouldn't be doing a very good job of doing it covertly, would it?

Does my opponent really believe that the most advanced military in the world would really leave an obvious trail of evidence behind? Good thing we have guys like him that dismiss any piece of evidence, otherwise, they might actually have something to answer to.

The floor is yours, semperfortis.



posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 11:49 PM
link   
Sublime620 vs. Semperfortis

“The ‘ChemTrail Plot’ To Spray The Population With Chemicals Is Real.”

Debate Tournament: Round 2

Reply #3

So far the gist of my opponent’s proposition is that some unknown super secret cabal in the United States Military has hatched a plot to kill some unknown segment of the population by spraying them with some unknown chemical, in some unknown manner, causing cancer. The effects of these actions will only become apparent when the members of this unknown super secret cabal are long dead.

Now I have heard of reaching before, but really!!!

Anyway,

Rebuttal:


Cancer and other diseases are on the rise from an "unknown toxic agent".


Untrue:


According to a report in the June 6th issue of the Journal of the National Cancer Institute, researchers led by Dr. Holly L. Howe of the North American Association of Central Cancer Registries in Springfield, Illinois., over much of the 1990s, deaths from cancer declined slightly in the US, but the number of Americans diagnosed with certain cancers--including breast, skin and liver cancer--inched up.

Statistics

Please note bolded area.


It said there is an unproven source causing cancer to be on the rise.


No where does it say that. In fact all the reports clearly state that overall cancer is declining.

Actually YOUR source goes on to say.


Ward notes that while the incidence of some cancers is climbing, overall cancer mortality rates have decreased since 1991 for both men and women.


Again confirming that cancer is on the decline. Now if this super secret cabal is doing what you say, they pretty much suck at it.


Has my opponent changed his mind on the criteria of what I need to prove?


Sorry, didn’t know it was my job.


I am only in fact pointing to a marked increase in toxic levels around the country and rises in disease.


In which you were patently wrong and proven so by your own source material.


It can temporarily affect both the air and water supply simultaneously, while also being covert.


Can you prove this?


Well if we knew that, we wouldn't be having this debate would we?


The question was: “Do you THINK”

It still stands unanswered.


But really, what kind of proof would you expect to come out?


Some to support your side of the debate maybe?


1* Contrails look different
2* Major diseases increase in occurance
3* Increases of chemicals found in groundwater
4* Patents and designs of planes built to spray chemicals covertly


1. Contrails look different? What?
2. No increase in disease, much less major
3. Increase in chemicals? Well of course, we are growing as a nation, (Apparently your plot is not doing well) there is going to be more chemicals.
4. Now looking at your post, you have shown us this plane, are you in possession of covert materials?


Modular Aerial Spray Systems (MASS)


Seriously now… GOOGLE


The 757th operates 8 C-130H2 aircraft, four of which are modified to accept the Modular Aerial Spray System.

The aerial spray mission, transferred to Air Force Reserve Command (AFRC) from the 4500th Aerial Spray Flight, Langley Air Force Base Va. on April 1, 1973. The 355th Tactical Airlift Squadron (AFRC) gained the mission using UC-123K spray aircraft and an active-duty Air Force entomologist. The unit’s first spray mission took place at Langley Air Force Base on May 22, 1973 to control mosquitoes.

MASS


yet my opponent can explain them all away as contrails.


There really is no need to explain this away as the information is readily available on the internet for everyone. (Not very covert)

As for my opponent’s next source, I will not rebut it. I will instead post several sentences for you to read. Judge the source for yourself.


The Earth is dying. Humanity is on the road to extinction - without the Shield mankind will die off with in 20 to 50 years

Millions would die in all cities on earth, riots and violence would reduce civilian centers to rubble within days

boils down to the end of the world in 50 to 75 years.

Have you signed a non-disclosure or Secrets Act document that specifically relates to this project?

Yes.

My opponent’s source:

(And it just goes on and on like this)


Funny enough, they don't seem to mention exactly what they are spraying. They left that part out.


No they did not leave it out, in fact it was very clear.


APPROVED AERIAL SPRAY PROJECTS (project location/pest):
a. Yorktown Naval Weapons Station, Cheatham Annex, and Camp Peary, VA. Mosquitoes.
b. Grand Forks Air Force Base, ND. Mosquitoes.
c. Minot Air Force Base, ND. Mosquitoes
d. Langley Air Force Base, VA. Mosquitoes.

My Opponent’s Source

All for mosquitoes…

More from my opponent’s other sources: I am including these so that you may see the nature of the references my opponent is relying on.


Over the last few years I have been to the Yucatan several times working with the Mayan shaman Hunbatz Men.

His work is very important to the unfoldment of the new world on Earth, and to the birthing of our new consciousness.

I not only "saw" but experienced what seemed like myself, floating out of the woman's body

My opponent’s source

Please judge for yourself the professional nature of these sources.


Does my opponent really believe that the most advanced military in the world would really leave an obvious trail of evidence behind?


Not only not a trail of evidence; but not one single item, not a shred of evidence; only hyperbole and postulation and fantasy.

So again, let’s sum up what it is my opponent wants us to believe.

Somewhere there is a group of people, maybe the United States of America’s Department of Defense, that has managed to remain more secret than the Illuminati, all the while spraying chemicals into the air, using admittedly ineffectual methods to possibly control the population that has not been in decline and the effects of this spraying will not become evident until long after this group is dead. The purpose of the spraying is to cause disease that has been shown to be in decline.

Now if what my opponent says is true, this group needs an award for the biggest bunglers in the history of the world.

And if anyone ever tells Al Gore that someone is spraying Aluminum into the air to control global warming and take away his chosen profession, I pity the fools.

This is all good stuff people; you can’t pay to watch this.

Really there is not much else to say except for my closing in which I will tie this all together for you, but for a moment let’s examine what we have here.

A perfectly natural phenomenon of water vapor with a perfectly good scientific explanation.

The absurdity of using such a delivery system for the purposes stated when there are many more effective measures that could be employed.

Assertions of increased disease that have been dispelled by my opponent’s own source material.

Fire Control
Mosquito Control
NASA Testing (Publically announced)

All perfectly normal and all allegedly part of some conspiracy concocted by people obviously seeking attention.

No Cause
No Effect
No Plot
No Problem

But I am spoiling my closing

So I will end with this…

The ‘ChemTrail Plot’ To Spray The Population With Chemicals Is NOT Real.

Thank you

Semper



posted on Sep, 7 2008 @ 09:43 PM
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I need to ask for my 24 hour extension please.



posted on Sep, 8 2008 @ 10:04 PM
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Final Rebuttal


Again confirming that cancer is on the decline. Now if this super secret cabal is doing what you say, they pretty much suck at it.


Yes, it says "mortality rates". Technology has gotten better and the chances have improved to survive. That doesn't change the fact that instances of cancer are on the rise.

Also, my opponent asked me to prove that aluminum will dissolve in water and also latch onto tiny particles in the air (I guess asking him to look it up so that I don't have to waste a source would be too much to ask).

1

  • Aluminum cannot be destroyed in the environment, it can only change its form.
  • In the air, aluminum binds to small particles, which can stay suspended for many days.
  • It can dissolve in lakes, streams, and rivers depending on the quality of the water.
  • It can be taken up by some plants from soil.


Fair enough?


No they did not leave it out, in fact it was very clear.


Yes, I am well aware they were "spraying for mosquitoes". That's not what they left out. They told us why they were spraying, but not what they sprayed. Who knows what chemicals are coming out of the back of those planes?

Closing Statements

While I have discussed many reasons for spraying chemicals over the public, I believe I have accomplished my goal of proving that the government is spraying something in our skies. I have laid the grounds for many theories as to why, when, and where they are spraying, but it is impossible and irrelevant to prove those beyond a shadow of a doubt.

I have shown aircraft specifically designed and used by the USAF to spray massive amounts of chemicals. Quite odd that while it is used for "mosquitoes", the chemtrial airplane is funded and ran by the Department of Defense.

I have shown possibilities for what they may be spraying. Aluminum, for instance, would be a logical choice since its affects would not necessarily be easily noticed and it could serve multiple purposes: population control, weather modification, and reduced warming of the Earth.

2

In 1994, the Hughes aerospace company was issued a remarkable patent. The Welsbach patent "for Reduction of Global Warming" proposed countering global warming by dispensing microscopic particles of aluminum oxide and other reflective materials into the upper atmosphere.


So we have this patent. We have planes that are designed for spraying chemicals just like this. But do we have any instances where high levels of aluminum were found? Of course we do:


In the spring of 1998, rain falling through heavy chemtrails over Espanola, Ontario was found to contain concentrations of aluminum particles seven times higher than permitted by Canadian health safety laws.



complaining about severe headaches, chronic joint pain, dizziness, sudden extreme fatigue, acute asthma attacks and feverless "flu-like" symptoms. The results of the test were not released.


Those are the short-term effects of high-level aluminum toxicity. If lower levels were maintained, the public could be subjected to aluminum toxicity intermittently without anyone being the wiser. The long term effects are of course tied to cancer, Alzheimer's, and Parkinson's (among other terrible diseases).

Is aluminum what is being sprayed over our heads? It's impossible to know definitively, but we can all be assured that they are secretly spraying something.

3
This is a Military document entailing how they would like to control weather patterns by 2025.


2025 is a study designed to comply with a directive from the chief of staff of the Air Force to examine the concepts, capabilities, and technologies the United States will require to remain the dominant air and space force in the future. Presented on 17 June 1996, this report was produced in the Department of Defense school environment of academic freedom and in the interest of advancing concepts related to national defense.


Again, the Department of Defense (yes, the same department that regularly uses planes to "spray mosquitoes") is conducting experiments to try and control weather patterns.


In 2025, US aerospace forces can “own the weather” by capitalizing on emerging technologies and focusing development of those technologies to war-fighting applications.


So the US DoD wants to "own the weather".


In the United States, weather-modification will likely become a part of national security policy with both domestic and international applications... These levels could include unilateral actions, participation in a security framework such as NATO....


This document, dated 1996, admits that weather modification will most likely become an integral part of our national security policy. It also includes NATO, which explains why people in many countries are seeing the same things in the sky that we are.

Putting it all together

When investigating the government, nothing ever fits together perfectly. It becomes a puzzle that has to be assembled. If one section is ignored, the puzzle can be meaningless. Let's assemble all of the pieces one last time so that we may take a more macro view of the topic:

  • Planes have been designed for mass spraying

  • Mass spraying has been implemented by the Department of Defense. Their reasoning is for "mosquitoes".

  • Plans have been put forth for spraying of the toxic chemical aluminum to be sprayed into the atmosphere to reduce global warming.

  • Aluminum is a toxic metal that in the short-term causes flu like symptoms. Long term effects are diseases such as: cancer, Parkinson's, and Alzheimer's.

  • The US considered it a priority to control the weather in 1996 - before the global warming epidemic. With the level of concern they previously held, it would only make sense that controlling global warming would have been added to the list (and don't forget the remedy that was proposed to be sprayed - aluminum).

  • There have been incidents, specifically the instance I showed in Canada, of dangerously high levels of aluminum being found after residents noticed unusual contrails left by aircraft.

  • Our government is spraying the skies, so anyone who says their are "no chemtrails" is ignoring the truth.

To take a page out of my opponent's book, I will end with this with:

The ‘ChemTrail Plot’ To Spray The Population With Chemicals Is Undoubtedly Real.

 


Thanks to semperfortis for the great debate. Though I found this topic extremely challenging, it was much more fun that our previous battle over China.

Thanks also to Memoryshock for taking over the helm and keeping this amazing forum alive.

Lastly, thanks to the judges for taking time out of their day to read and vote on the debate.

[edit on 8-9-2008 by MemoryShock]



posted on Sep, 9 2008 @ 12:07 AM
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Sublime620 vs. Semperfortis

“The ‘ChemTrail Plot’ To Spray The Population With Chemicals Is Real.”

Debate Tournament: Round 2

Closing Statement:

Salutations:

And “another one bites the dust” to coin a phrase.

Thank you Sublime620 for your contributions to the expansion of our knowledge base and your commitment to the debate forum.

Thank you MemoryShock for organizing this Tournament and particularly this debate.

Thank you readers and judges for without you, this would all be for nothing.

The Debate:


“The ‘ChemTrail Plot’ To Spray The Population With Chemicals Is Real.”


Notice if you will the word “plot”.

All of the rest of that sentence is not particularly relevant to our discussion as the spraying of chemicals is a routine and mundane matter that occurs all over the world for many different reasons. None of them nefarious.

Crop Dusting
Mosquito Control
Atmospheric Testing
Cloud Seeding
Etc

Still no “plot” in sight.

See that is what is missing here in my opponent’s entire presentation, all three rebuttals, opening and closing; the proof of a plot.

Oh we were presented with supposition, hyperbole, fantasy and even a small amount of conjecture; but no real substance.

We were also shown source material that included an “Out of Body Experience”, working with a “Witch Doctor” and a prediction that the world is going to end in 20 years.
While all of this is wonderful reading and actually quite interesting, it really has no place in a scientific debate.

In order to get to the truth of such things, it is necessary to cut through the chaff and look objectively at all the data.

Is it a FACT that the United States Government, Private Corporations and Framers spray chemicals into the air?

Yes

It is also a fact that they do so for very real and understandable reasons. All easily proven and documented and not some plot to conquer the world.

My opponent would have you believe the following:

Some unknown and unnamed cabal in the United States Government is using some unknown and unidentifiable method to spray some unknown chemical into the atmosphere to cause disease for some unknown reason.

1. No evidence of a cabal.
2. No proof of the method for spraying exists.
3. No proof or evidence of what chemical is being used.
4. The disease, cancer, my opponent believes is being caused, has been shown to be in decline.

Unknown, Unknown, Unknown and still my opponent would have you believe in a “plot”.

Contrails are a very real and present phenomenon in our skies. They are a scientific principle that I have presented to you in my previous replies. Their persistence, different appearance and sometimes absence, is all documented scientific fact. Not some mysterious plan to subjugate the population.

I have also presented to you alternate ways to achieve a nefarious “plot” by any “cabal” for any “reason”, that are much more effective and much more easily instituted. Common Sense.

I have shown you where if any plot were to exist, the effects fantasized by my opponent are such that whomever instituted that plot would be long dead and gone before seeing any results of their labors. Again, Common Sense.

And yet, the belief in such things persists.

Could it be that we are so desperate to believe that someone, somewhere is out to get us, that we create these fantasy government conspiracies just to satisfy our own needs?

The psychological implications are far and away above me. Yet one can not help but wonder.

I am not going to rebut my opponent’s closing for any number of reasons, suffice it to say, I can even agree with much of his closing post.

Spraying aluminum to combat global warming. Fine… Where is the plot? Where is the subterfuge?

Crop Dusting; what plot, what subterfuge?

Weather Control Experiments; again, what plot, what subterfuge?

Mosquito Control: well you get the idea…

Remember when reading and judging this that even if some of the chemicals have side effects, and I am sure they do; (I don’t want to be under a crop duster, or breath mosquito spray) that does not mean there is a plot by the United States Government or anyone else for that matter.

To imagine we are being sprayed by the government in order to produce cancer and then knowing that cancer is on the decline, is simply the ultimate in foolhardy supposition.

To imagine that we are being sprayed by ANYONE in order to control the population, and knowing the population is growing, is ridiculous.

I have researched this debate with an open mind; searching for something of substance that did not require me to take a leap into a fantasy world to get behind. I have been unable to find any evidence, direct or otherwise, that substantiates the fantasy of Chem-Trails.

I know that this closing is somewhat shorter than my usual long winded presentations; yet I find that my case has been made. There really is nothing left to argue.

In the end I have PROVEN that there is no plot to spray the population with chemicals.

Or more accurately:

“The ‘ChemTrail Plot’ To Spray The Population With Chemicals Is NOT Real.”


Thank you

Semper



posted on Sep, 22 2008 @ 05:10 AM
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Congratulations. I can attest that this debate was a tough one to judge.

Semperfortis will advance to Round Three.



This debate topic presented a great opportunity for two of the Debate Forum's stronger participants to do battle. I think I should reiterate the topic being debated here before I continue.



The topic for this debate is The ‘ChemTrail Plot’ To Spray The Population With Chemicals Is Real.


Sublime620, your argument started off kind of slowly. You had a solid argument, but you missed a couple of opportunities to get yourself set up. Namely, you allowed semperfortis to get at you early on in your second post.

One point that should have been established right off the bat for you was that the chemtrails weren't being sprayed everywhere at once; only in select locations, and that the cancer totals weren't total numbers of deaths, but numbers of cases. That probably would have freed you up to focus on your argument more. Food for thought...

Semperfortis,

You grace the Debate Forums with a style of debate that most don't quite know how to deal with. As I mentioned above, you came at Sublime620 pretty quickly, knocking him off kilter early. A solid debate tactic, and it worked here.

On top of that, you used the very sources that Sublime used to rebut his arguments. That's impressive.

However, what decided the vote for me was when you kept coming back to a lack of a "plot" for these to be taking place nefariously. You showed that there was in fact no "plot" to spray chemicals on people, with the intent of population control or otherwise doing harm to the population.

 


So, in my opinion, semperfortis provides the better argument, and should win.

 


DISCLAIMER: It should also be mentioned here that this debate in no way proves that chemicals being sprayed in our atmosphere are or aren't doing us any harm. There's plenty of evidence to suggest that air pollution is doing bad things to the population. So to say that spraying chemicals into the atmosphere, regardless of what they are, is not causing us any undue stress/disease would be a trifle pre-emptory.

I would like to see more research on this topic done, perhaps via another debate!!!

GREAT DEBATE ONE AND ALL!!!! Thank you Sublime620 and semperfortis for that most entertaining and enlightening of debates. I hope I see you guys do this again!!!





Sublime620 V Semperfortis

This was tough, with 2 excellent debaters coming out all guns blazing.

Sublime620 did a great job of staying in the contest and not letting smperfortis push him too far onto to the back foot.
He countered agression with agression and nicely steered the debate back around when it looked at as though semperfortis was going to be allowed to set the terms of the debate.
He provided good evidential material and worked it nicely into his argument, whilst maintaining his cool in the face of some very heavy pressure from semperfortis.
IMO he missed a trick by not tying in the increased cancer survival rates with big pharma - who, it could be argued, have strong government ties and stand to benefit from successfull treatment programmes of various expensive cancer drugs.

Semper was in bullish form and quickly got to the core of the debate by focussing on the word "plot"
He was quick to jump on any mistake by sublime620 and pressured him to the extent that several opportunities for socratic questions were missed, which I believe was telling in the final analysis.
Superb aggression and rhetoric were the hallmarks of this effort from semper,and he made full use of all the evidentiary material posted whilst also doing a great job of refuting and discreditting opponents sources and maintaining control of the tempo of the debate.

I make Semperfortis the winner by the narrowest of margins.
However, a VERY honourable mention to Sublime620 for a great effort, and my favourite comeback of any debate so far when he countered sempers freud argument:
"Yes, and he also said that I am jealous of my father because he gets to sleep with my mother. I'll take it with a grain of salt."
A true laugh out loud moment.





This is the third ATS debate that I have followed and the second I have judged. I've been pleasantly surprised by the quality of the debates and found this to be the most interesting. I came into this an agnostic on chemtrails and I appreciate the education. It's nice to be the beneficiary of what obviously was a great deal of thought, work and research by the participants.

The criteria that I used for judging the debate are as follows:

Consistency
relevance to the topic
strength of rebuttal
writing style
organization
use of supporting evidence
perspicacity of argument

Each category was given a rating of 1 to 10 and this was used for the opening, each rebuttal and the conclusion.

The first round had each debater receiving a 10 for consistency (as they were setting their style) and neither received any points for strength of rebuttal in the opening.

I hadn't anticipated giving a 10 out again. I was surprised that I gave a 10 two more times to Semperfortis. I was also surprised that the lowest aggregate score for a single round went to Semperfortis and then the single highest aggregate score for a single round came exactly one round later, also for Semperfortis.

The debate was extremely, extremely close. The winner (in my estimation) was Sublime620, as he/she one more rounds; but Semperfortis had the higher total for all points added together.

Congratulations to Sublime620. I look forward to reading additional debates by both participants.

By the way, I apologize for the judging being so clinical; but I am trying to be as objective as possible.



posted on Sep, 22 2008 @ 05:23 AM
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Congrats semper. A pleasure as always.

Thanks to the judges. Obviously much thought was put into your decisions, and I am honored that I was even considered close.

This was an especially tough debate for me. I wasn't sure I believed chemtrails had any validity, coupled with the fact that semperfortis was in top form. Good luck to the next person to face this guy - he's a beast.


*Edit:

Had to add, it was the Socratic Questions in my opinion. I need to take notes on the questions he asked. Every time I saw he had a Socratic Question I wanted to close the window and quit.

They were brutal.

*Edited to add again:

Damn, MS, you're up early.


[edit on 22-9-2008 by Sublime620]



posted on Sep, 22 2008 @ 06:35 AM
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Sublime620,

One heck of a debate and you are certainly a class act and a worthy opponent...

I look forward to being the guinea pig for the new style of debate you want to try out...

Semper






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