Palin Loves her Grandchild, Obama See His as Punishment

Originally posted by mopusvindictus
Obamas view is indicitive of his feelings on the subject... Like many Americans he views having a child as a "hold back" for a woman.

I won't break his cajones for saying punishment, I hate pc word games

But it is what it IS

and that is: a statement as the majority of Americans and people in Western civilization feel, Women who have babies are LESS than the rest of us, career is more important, self indulgence is more imortant (me, me, me) Finance is more important, children are a burden and:

Excellent points!

Yes, the underlying message in Obama's "punishment" statement is money is valued higher than human life.

This is not the type of value system most of us want in our political leaders.

Originally posted by jamie83
Yes, the underlying message in Obama's "punishment" statement is money is valued higher than human life.

Or, without political slant, wait until you are mature enough, responsible enough and monitarily capable to give a child a good life. Which is exactly what he was saying.

Originally posted by sos37


Can't you understand where the pro life group would feel a sense of outrage over that statement since they believe that every human life, intentional or not, is precious?

I think Obama is just saying that his daughters' lives are also precious.

It seems to me that many of the right to life group think that a childs life is MORE precious than an adults. Many of the "pro-life" segment are also "pro-death penalty" which technically speaking, is inconsistent with a "right to life."

Many of them also seem to feel that a fetus, embryo, or baby is more precious than the hopes and dreams of the mother. And it generally does come down to the mother, not the father, in who is responsible in many of their eyes.

Besides, he isnt talking at all about aborting a baby. He is talking about giving them the information and access to preventative measures to prevent their ever getting pregnant or an STD.

Why do you have to make a speech about prevention and access to information and means of prevention into a statement on abortion?

Originally posted by intrepid

Or, without political slant, wait until you are mature enough, responsible enough and monitarily capable to give a child a good life. Which is exactly what he was saying.

I would buy that explanation if he were talking about having sex, not having a baby.

Obama's entire premise begins with the hypothetical situation in which his daughters already had sex and became pregnant. Keep in mind that this is Obama's hypothetical, not mine. He's the one who brought his pre-teen daughters into the discussion.

So rather than address the CAUSE of the problem, which is having sex, he's addressing the effect, the resulting baby, and calling the baby "punishment."

And once again you are reiterating my point. The underlying message given by Obama is money is more important than a baby. Until you are "capable to give a child a good life"?

What does that mean? That poor blacks in the inner city aren't capable of giving a child a good life? That poor folks in the hills of West Virginia aren't capable of giving their kids a good life? That nobody in India has a good life? Or China? Or Africa?

It's EXACTLY this type of materialistic, elitism that turns people off from liberals in general, and Obama specifically.

What you're really saying is that a life without the trappings of modern materialism isn't even worth living. Honestly, I find that world view extremely troubling and disgusting.

Ironically, if Obama's mother shared this view he wouldn't even be here today. He would have been aborted back in 1961 and his mother would be living in Beverly Hills driving her Mercedes back and forth between Rodeo Dr. and her Hollywood hills mansion.

Originally posted by jamie83

Originally posted by intrepid

Or, without political slant, wait until you are mature enough, responsible enough and monitarily capable to give a child a good life. Which is exactly what he was saying.

I would buy that explanation if he were talking about having sex, not having a baby.

Obama's entire premise begins with the hypothetical situation in which his daughters already had sex and became pregnant. Keep in mind that this is Obama's hypothetical, not mine. He's the one who brought his pre-teen daughters into the discussion.

So rather than address the CAUSE of the problem, which is having sex, he's addressing the effect, the resulting baby, and calling the baby "punishment."

You must be reading a different statement than I am because I have NO idea how you came to that conclusion from this:

When it comes specifically to HIV/AIDS, the most important prevention is education, which should include -- which should include abstinence education and teaching the children -- teaching children, you know, that sex is not something casual. But it should also include -- it should also include other, you know, information about contraception because, look, I've got two daughters. 9 years old and 6 years old. I am going to teach them first of all about values and morals. But if they make a mistake, I don't want them punished with a baby. I don't want them punished with an STD at the age of 16. You know, so it doesn't make sense to not give them information."

He IS addressing the issue, EDUCATION!!!

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander

Originally posted by sos37


Can't you understand where the pro life group would feel a sense of outrage over that statement since they believe that every human life, intentional or not, is precious?

I think Obama is just saying that his daughters' lives are also precious.

It seems to me that many of the right to life group think that a childs life is MORE precious than an adults. Many of the "pro-life" segment are also "pro-death penalty" which technically speaking, is inconsistent with a "right to life."

Many of them also seem to feel that a fetus, embryo, or baby is more precious than the hopes and dreams of the mother. And it generally does come down to the mother, not the father, in who is responsible in many of their eyes.

Besides, he isnt talking at all about aborting a baby. He is talking about giving them the information and access to preventative measures to prevent their ever getting pregnant or an STD.

Why do you have to make a speech about prevention and access to information and means of prevention into a statement on abortion?

Obama's words are "punished with a baby". He may not be referring to abortion but he's definately referring to a baby in a negative context, as if the baby was to blame for the daughter's sexual conduct.

As for the pro-lifers being pro-death penalty, I can certainly argue that there is no conflict there with the following:

I think we can all agree that an unborn fetus is without sin, without any wrong-doing and is completely pure. His or her destiny (the fetus) is ultimately decided by the mother. Why would you want to pass a death sentence onto someone that has done no wrong to you or anyone you know?

The death penalty is applied by a jury who rules that a man or woman, found guilty of a heinous crime, is irreversible in their behavior and incorrigible. The accused has most likely killed one or many people and devastated the lives of countless others, and has done so through the act of free will - something the fetus lacks at this point.

How can you even dare to liken an unborn child to a convicted and unrepentant criminal? The two are in no way the same.

Originally posted by sos37
Obama's words are "punished with a baby". He may not be referring to abortion but he's definately referring to a baby in a negative context, as if the baby was to blame for the daughter's sexual conduct.

Are you saying that a 14yo having a baby is a positive thing? I'd argue that, and I have a 14yo daughter.

As to the bold, I have NO idea where that came from.

Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by sos37
Obama's words are "punished with a baby". He may not be referring to abortion but he's definately referring to a baby in a negative context, as if the baby was to blame for the daughter's sexual conduct.

Are you saying that a 14yo having a baby is a positive thing? I'd argue that, and I have a 14yo daughter.

As to the bold, I have NO idea where that came from.

Again you miss the point. Why is the girl having sex at 14? Why is she not making better judgment calls? I would also have to ask where were the parents while this 14 year old was off having sex? Does the 14 year old understand that sex can lead to pregnancy? Whether she decides to keep a baby or not, it WILL alter her life for good.

I'm sorry but except for rape you CANNOT argue that a baby in the belly of a 14 year old is the fault of the baby! Someone has to take responsibility, and that someone has to be the person having sexbefore she's ready!

[edit on 2-9-2008 by sos37]

Originally posted by intrepid

He IS addressing the issue, EDUCATION!!!

Yes, he began by addressing education, but he continued by commenting on the hypothetical situation that his daughters got pregnant.

Before we continue, can you at least concede this point?

He said if his daughters make a mistake he wouldn't want them punished with a baby.

What mistake is he referring to? Missing a question on a spelling test???

Originally posted by dbates
]
I'm confused. Is the baby a STD or just punishment in itself?

I think he was referencing the baby would be punished with its own STD before aborting itself.

Originally posted by jamie83

Originally posted by intrepid

He IS addressing the issue, EDUCATION!!!

Yes, he began by addressing education, but he continued by commenting on the hypothetical situation that his daughters got pregnant.

No, it is the same topic:

look, I've got two daughters. 9 years old and 6 years old. I am going to teach them first of all about values and morals. But if they make a mistake, I don't want them punished with a baby. I don't want them punished with an STD at the age of 16. You know, so it doesn't make sense to not give them information."

What mistake is he referring to? Missing a question on a spelling test???

Now that's just obtuse. We both know what mistake he's talking about and yes kids make mistakes. That's why they're kids.

reply to post by sos37

Personally, the only time I agree with the woman's right to an abortion is in cases of rape or if it endangers the life of the mother. I'm not a purist in the sense of pro-life because I don't believe a blanket rule covers it all.

I would add incest to that list.

To everybody: let's not try to make this a R vs D thing. I grew up surrounded by blue collar, hard-working Catholic Democrats who were and still are adamantly pro-life.

reply to post by intrepid


I can only address the realities of the situation by the example of my own life and experience.

I come from a highly educated reatively Liberal affluent family.

They had the usual 2 Childen

waited until they were old enough, in their 30's

My Mothers first child was low birth weight, my sister honestly was always a bit nervous, never excelled in school or athletics

The second child, didn't live past the 2nd day, (My mother was always somewhat traumatized by this)

I was adopted via a 17 year old girl that got pregnant and didn't choose abortion

(in regards to abortion, I fared well, make a good living and contribute to society, I am glad that being a "mistake" a metallic instrument was not taken to me)

Now the Mother of my Children

Her Family had 6 children and a broken family, all had younger than my mother had her 1st, every child is healthy, mom worked all the time, wasn't there as much, kids had to raise themselves parhaps to a degree, Dad was a looser and was never around, had to be hunted for child support

My Point, this is a worst case scenario IDIOCRACY Might come to mind

In the case of 2 of the six children they have not done much better, but unlike MY Sister, are healthy as a horse and have had children where as my sister never reproduced

4 of the children, one has a good job in sales, another is going to Med school, 2 have their own businesses

the other 2 only one is in trouble the other just is a bit dysfunctional imho


So who's family Mine or hers was a success... there are 6 kids of which 4 are in good shape and one beat the curve entirely, the other is okay and only 1 in 6 is a looser

There are currently 8 Grand children including my two kids

My family if you consider I was adopted... in essence their blood line is DEAD

As Western civilization is in decline numerically, this is the results of doing things the "right way" which is nothing less than a depopulation agenda...

The opinion of IDIOCRACY is unfounded, people are individuals and frankly many if not most people from humble backgrounds will go on to succede it's what people do when faced with adversity

My parents were, wonderful people, they deserved to have had children they were good human beings, but they listened to this system since the 60's they did what they were told was right

It got them and thousands of years of their family history erased from the planet Earth, there will ever be any more of them, and they were woth being here.

The Mother of my children was young, she gave birth like a cat in the closet, she had the easiest pregnancy ever, was up in 20 minutes, my children are blessed, healthy, strong, perfect

My mothers children in her 30's sufered low birth weight, one died, Palin having a child at that age just had a kid with downs syndrome.

To say a woman shouldn;t have children young (the same crowd that worries about their health) is dooming them to complications, troubled ofspring from a life of accumulated toxins

The women who have kids young have More successful children in the nature vs nurture debate than waiting 15 years allows for depite all good efforts

I can not imagine if I had waited until now to have a child and I was... 47 instead of 37 when he was young, to NOT be able to run and play and jump quite as easy with him, to not have him grow up with mom while she was stil beautiful, the extra generation gap, the distance in culture...

all these things matter, I am, my sons friend as well as hid Father, I can Do things with him , I can relate to him, I can hike and camp and climb

These parents can not

and I will not in 10 years be any less free from having to work than I was at 21, if anything my responsabilities are growing as I age... so is the time there as a result of waiting, No, not really, you just get more tired, have less energy

No insult to Obama, my kids keep me young, I am more responsable and a better father having been younger

The benefits of waiting for something that I asure you, you can Never ever, ever...prepare for in school anyway, are absolute Zero

On a Macro scale... Compare America to China, they were poorer "growing up" this Century, who's society is winning? Is China in danger of Chinese culture vanishing or is that Americas fear atm?

WE are killing ourselves off to help those less fortunate, in an attempt to be "more civilized" to "save the world" But as it seems the world will be going on without us and doing just fine, Just like the "white trash" family as some would call it... survived and prospered where my family no longer exists aside from me and my children...

I was smart, I walked a less "acceptable" route my parents are Gone... Dead, they had kids older... I'm only 37 and I am alone aside from my kids... at only 37 her parents have a good 20 years ahead, she will have them until she is old... they have a family

and for all the attention to what is "right" I have no family if I need money, I am alone, if I get in trouble I am alone, if there is ever any problem until my kids are grown... I am alone

This is a system? This is good for America... I guess in terms of divide and conquer, it works just fine, I do have to after all, walk a pretty straight line, no one to bail me out if they come for me is there?

I am sure our Rulers like things this way, but me... 5 more kids if I can... barefoot and kicking the crap out of anyone that bothers them in life

Life is success, Death or lack of Life is failure, family is strong, alone is weak, I am Alive because a young girl didn't believe in abortion out there somewhere, I will spend the rest of my life building a family just to have one at this point and my job is ALOT harder with no help, ever, from anyone

reply to post by jamie83

Is there ONE person here at ATS with kids or grandchildren that honestly believes they were sent as punishment?

They aren't "sent" by anything other than our animal desires and youthful irresponsibility. Why are you trying to paint Obama in such a negative light?? Do you really think that a VP will have the time to "support" her 17 year old daughter through this huge life transition. Obama believes in responsibility until one is ready for kids. I am over 30 and I'm not even responsible enough to do the family thing quite yet. Maybe the people are very mature in Alaska, but generally kids having kids is a bad idea.

reply to post by Scramjet76


As I posted above, that simply does not work out to be true. Not in real life.

And... if you had kids you would find that the maturity comes fast and hard

It's like learning how to swim, you say your immature, but really only because you CAN be, just like you can't swim until you are going to drown, but find it comes quite naturally for most people put in that circumstance, your instincts take over

Any Dad that has ever thrown his kid in a pool knows this, it seems scary but in moments a kid can swim, and just like this case the younger you throw them in the better only an old person has learned and ingrained the words "I can't"

reply to post by mopusvindictus


I hear what you're saying and I agree but this issue isn't about abortion. It's about educating the kids so that they can reach an age that they are physically & emotionally ready to bear this responsibility.

Originally posted by yeti101
i think forcing someone to have a kid when they dont want to is punishing them.

I get what you are saying and I get what Obama is saying as well. I love how people WILLFULLY take statements out of context to fit their own agendas or viewpoints. Forcing a woman to have a child she does not want is a punishment, especially if she was raped or was using contraception that was"99.98% effective". All the women who have received or tried to receive abortions felt this way too.

reply to post by yeti101



you arent forced to have a kid you dont want, its called ADOPTION!

I have read the posts with great interest.

My own father and mother had me young (20 and 18 respectively). My father wasn't mature then AND he is not mature now. There are now 9 of us - the older ones raised the younger ones; my dad is twice divorced and soon to be 3 times. My father "allowed" my mother to give up my only other sister for adoption because he was not mature enough to have 3 children under the age of 5. He also wasn't around because of work (law enforcement).

Of the 8, 5 have children conceived out of wedlock even though we were given moral instruction AND told about contraception. We are all relatively intelligent and middle class. Only two are married.


But education (in school and through church) didn't stop one with at least two different partners from aborting several pregnancies. The same one has three children with 3 separate partners. It didn't stop one from having a child with a partner with children by two other partners. It didn't stop the other parent of one from saying he would spit in her face if he saw her again AFTER they had sex AND he impregnated her. Then when faced with having to pay child support wanted his PARENTAL right to see the child AND stole the car seat (needed for the child to be transported) as a PUNISHMENT.

American government tries to enter into every aspect of our lives - from cradle to grave. It's our responsibility as voters to pick someone to respresent ALL of us. We need to elect the person who will let us make our own decisions about what to believe instead of trying to convince us that what they believe is right.

reply to post by jamie83


jamie i'm with you.
common sense tells me that someone that cannot love a helpless baby or views them as "punishment" when they are a part of their own flesh and blood would have an even harder time loving total strangers such as you or i would be to him.