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False/half awakenings (spiritually speaking), getting through it.

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posted on Sep, 9 2008 @ 12:03 PM
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Originally posted by enlighten2012
i have read alot of spiritual texts though and beleive that the factual meaning of enlightment can only be reached by people who have lived, eaten and breathed spirituality over their lifetimes.


How could any of us possibly know what people here now (including ourselves) did in our/their previous lifetimes, even if that theory were correct?

I know there are some who claim they have access to all or some of their own past lives, but how do they know for certain? I find it suspicious that there were so few housemaids and fieldworkers reincarnated in this time frame and so many Kings, Queens and priests of Atlantis, etc.

I would be interested in precisely where you find in the texts this belief that the only way to attain enlightenment is by living eating and breathing "spirituality" which for many is just following the rules, and going through the motions. And who says it? Is it the "preistly" caste of whatever tradition? that has a very mundane and material interest in people following their rules? Or is it the enlightened ones themselves?

I did not find grounds for that belief in my own reading of the texts.

In fact, sudden enlightenment is NOT inconsistent with the Buddhist tradition, or many others. The Buddha himself for instance, did not spend his entire lifetime, (the one he became enlightened during) in spiritual pursuit. He spent his youth in decadence, and around 6 years of his adult life in severe asceticism before he gave up, and sat down under a tree, and finally attained. It wasnt the asceticism that brought him attainment, but the act of giving it up and sitting down.


You seem to think that enlightenment is a "reward" for good behavior. Something that the "special" and the very, very, pious get after much work towards that goal. Milarepa was a murderer before becoming enlightened. The Buddha was a spoiled prince indulging in the sensual.


Perhaps in their prior lifetimes they burned all but a small portion of their karma. Perhaps the same could be said of others today, who knows? I tend to think that the "enlightened" mind is not a reward for good behavior, but something we ALL already possess. It is simply covered over in the images and thoughts of the Ego or thinking mind. If one can get the thinking mind to shut up for even the smallest second, the enlightened mind or Self can be seen for what it is.

If you look at the purpose of most eastern spiritual practice, not just as a task to be performed as a penance, but as a strategically designed and very intelligently contrived task, you will see a common thread. It is to show the futility of trying with the mind. Build this tower, that will do it, no, sorry tear it down. Build it again, maybe that will work, oops no, tear it down. One more time, build it. Nope still wrong. Here play with this Koan, and bring me "the meaning." Even the unexpected knocks over the head with a staff, or the cutting off of a limb, these are designed by the teacher to bring your Awareness out of the mind and its ramblings through time, to Awareness right NOW, sharp and clear, while the mind is stymied for the "why" that just happened.

Perhaps this weakening of the Ego or the mind CAN be accomplished over long periods of time or even lifetimes, but does it HAVE to be? Or can there be a sudden failure of the Ego or the mind that causes the whole thing to just screech to a halt suddenly?

And can the Ego or the mind trying to cause this weakening of itself ever really weaken it? Or does the Ego striving for enlightenment simply strengthen the very thing that prevents enlightenment? Itself?




posted on Sep, 9 2008 @ 01:50 PM
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Originally posted by Sonya610
It sounds like you are judging others that have experienced darkness after awakening and you are assuming that it must be because they were “not ready for it” or they are “not evolved or intelligent enough to process it properly”.


He may be wrong in your case, but after he clarified what he meant, I dont think he is wrong in my own.

I DO attribute the suffering I had shortly after the experience and in the 2-3 year following it to the fact that I had no idea how to apply what was seen to my actual "mundane" individual life. And, due to the fact that I had no "control" or practical ability to see my ego moment to moment. Which, had I had a meditative practice prior to the experience, might have been in place. And some parts of the increased suffering were directly linked to it because I didnt have anyone to talk to about what was the most real, and most profound experience of my life. I felt isolated, and when I DID try to share it, I found either interest, but no understanding, (like trying to speak a foreign language to someone who doesnt also speak it) or total lack of interest, or ridicule and mockery from (interestingly enough) the more supposedly spiritual people.

At first, I did try to just have the experience in one "area" and then go on with my normal habitual behaviors and patterns of thought. However, I found that for me, the contrast was too much. It made certain ways of thinking and being more painful than they were prior to the experience because I "knew" how inconsistent they were with what I had seen. I actually had to bring the experience to life, and begin to start living in a way more consistent with the vision before the pain eased up. Not that I am living 100% consistently, I have tried to make it very clear that I am not, but to the degree that I can be consistent with what I was shown was the truth, my life is much more pain free. And I am very clear that in my case, it is the remaining "inability" to act and think in this consistent fashion that causes me any residual pain.

If I sit alone in a room, with nothing to provoke my ego, I can feel very at ease. It is harder to do it with the ego engaged and active as it must be to move through the world. There are buttons, issues I have not sussed out and become aware of, that can still be pushed that will send it into a fear frenzy and cause me to drop the reins. They are just fewer and further between, and the fear frenzy is more of a squeak than a roar as I get more adept.



Originally posted by Sonya610
I experienced what I consider to be an awakening 10 years ago. Yes I have gone though some hard core episodes of depression since then, but I do not think the two are directly tied.


I would agree in the sense that for me, the experience doesnt cause depression. It doesnt have to anyway. But for me, my own initial unwillingness to "make it real" in my day to day life did. It was the "understanding" combined with refusing to change that did. I wasnt particularly "depressive" before the experience. I had a rough time of it growing up, but generally speaking I was a "suck it up and do the best you can" sort of person. I didnt wallow in my misery. After the experience, I did suffer more at first. Because all the things I had been hanging my hopes for a "better" life on, money, a great job, prestige, etc., all those things were clearly shown to me as not going to be able to bring me happiness. I was stymied. I didnt know what else to try, how to live.


Originally posted by Sonya610
I think they are separate issues, I guess my point was that awakening does not necessarily cause a blissful existence.


I agree. It doesnt necessarily cause a blissful existence. There is a LOT of sorting out involved in "how do I navigate this 3d existence in light of what I saw/understand" before the benefits in this form, (a more peaceful mind and life) manifest. I do accept that there is no reason it HAS to take any time at all, it COULD be an instant acceptance and implementation, and I think if one had some idea what that would look like, how that would physically play out, one might be able to go from experience to peace in life nearly instantly.

I had no background. I had no idea how to live that way. I had to figure it out both on my own, by philosophizing and contemplating the implications of what I saw/experienced, and also, after I figured out I could find some of the answers there, in the spiritual texts and other secular writings of those that had also had the experience. I have always been good about, (even before the experience) listening to those who have successfully done what I need to do. I served an apprenticeship in the trades, and I have no resistance to listening to my elders. I always ask myself "what is the bottom line here," when listening, and I dont always absorb the mindless traditions that come with the advice, but I do listen and carefully evaluate what part of what they are saying is the important part. There are lots of gems in the sacred texts, among all the rubble of cultural hoohah and tradition added by the "followers" who really dont know the experience itself or understand it.

You CAN figure it all out by scratch. I figured a lot out all on my own with the experience as a guide. But, like V says, why reinvent the wheel? What humans have going for us is culture, the ability to draw from the knowledge built up over the eons, rather than each of us individually reinventing calculus, language, etc. I dont see any reason not to continue that very good strategy, after all, with the vision in hand you can easily sort the rubble from the gems.


Originally posted by Sonya610
Sure one can say “this is not real, it is all an illusion, there is no reason to be depressed, there is no reason to suffer so greatly” all ya like but that doesn’t help much.


I agree. Saying that it is all an illusion does not solve the problem of suffering. Which is the same thing RogerT was saying. But thats not the same as examining WHY this illusion makes you suffer. Thats the question. Not "is this an illusion?" But "Why am I suffering?"

You ARE in this illusion, regardless, and there is a "program" running while you are. What are the rules of the program?

If your are suffering illusory physical pain, because you have your illusory finger in an illusory fire. What point would there be in holding it there while saying "this is just an illusion?" Sure, and the pain is an illusion too. But you are IN the the illusion. If you want THAT illusory pain to stop while in the illusion, take your finger out of the fire. If the physical "rules" of the program are that behavior x=pain, then the solution to pain is "avoid behavior x." You have to clearly see which behavior is "behavior x" however, and not attribute it to some fairy tale spun up by the mind.

If you are making yourself suffer with your mind, (which is truly illusory suffering) by wallowing in yesterdays events, or rushing ahead to find boogeymen in the future, stop doing that. (Which is easier said than done until you get that waking meditative discipline but it CAN be done) Bring your consciousness, your Awareness to the present. 99.9% of the time, there are no boogeymen in the room with you right now. In the small percentage of the time when there IS a boogeyman in the room with you, refer to the first strategy. Ask yourself "what can I do, right now," or much much better still, let your Awareness react intuitively before you can even form that thought.

The fact that it is an illusion is only partially important. It is important, but it isnt the whole story. You have to find out why you are suffering, in the illusion, what is causing it, and then act accordingly.



posted on Sep, 9 2008 @ 05:07 PM
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Originally posted by Harman

Originally posted by enlighten2012

sorry harman though i'm not sure what you mean by 'the shoe being dropped'? you dont have to explain if its personal.


Nothing personal, the shoe i'm expecting to drop is related to 2012 and what i suspect will happen in that time to keep us 'plebs' in the dark about it. Pretty much some Shock and Awe campaign bigger then we have ever seen before just to keep the fear/hate up and going inside of us.

But you are right, nothing beats a real life experience. But on the other hand; i'm alive already and experiencing stuff every day.

This is pretty much the reason i made this topic, to get some assistance making my choice, so thanks again.


cool. each to their own.

thats right you are alive and the experiances you have daily are meaningful! hope this thread makes it alittle clearer for you



posted on Sep, 9 2008 @ 05:37 PM
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reply to post by Illusionsaregrander
 


What a perfectly lovely post, echoing what I too feel at this moment. I am seeing the future, I have seen it since I was new to this planet. As soon as I could talk (quite literally) i said to my parents "hold on let me get this straight, I am born here, i go to school, grow up, get married, go to work, buy stuff, pay tax and then die, are you kidding? I think I have come to the wrong place"

I then st out on years of spiritual questioning which has now lead me into the Esoteric Buddhist practices of Master Dechan Jueren, a very high and accomplished "Living Buddha". His practices are aimed at bringing you into Enlightenment with this body. Last Saturday his teachings took a group of 50 people in a suburban community centre into the first stage of Zen. 2 of them had never meditated before.

He echos what is being said here. There is a need to Wake up. We are ants floating on a log down towards the waterfall, and we are nearly there. There will be no light body awakenings we are here, and we are now. We are God and we have to remember that very very fast.

Good luck everyone on your search, I hope you attain.



posted on Sep, 10 2008 @ 12:00 AM
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This thread has helped me to remember the zen state of mind.

Illusionsaregrander, you have clearly understood and follow the path, and are very good at communicating it. Thank you for taking the time to write such beautiful words, opening yourself to us. Your words help me to recall a similar time in my life, ineffable feelings. As I read this thread I feel the flame inside grow stronger again, at a time needed most.

I remember all the time I spent in nature, meditating next to waterfall, rivers. I try to keep in mind that the river is always flowing, even now as I type this. Forging ahead, unaware and unfathomed by the obstacles ahead, able to conform and shape the landscape when needed.

At one time I felt I was there. But we always are. Then I felt the path is long and the goal unreachable. Then I realized it is the path itself. But I have strayed from it, and must adjust my course.

Thank you to all who have contributed.



posted on Sep, 10 2008 @ 01:31 AM
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its simple, but i didnt figure it out because i have a problem with thousands of thoughts running through my head from when i wake till when i sleep.

A Druid i know personaly, if u want to call if enlightened or not i dont know but damn near close! he could see energy in everything and like armies of spirits and all good stuff,

but he did say" u need to meditate more on nature, be patience and ur path will come" of course it takes longer then u think but its worth it. oh and the whole fear thing is an expression of the first demon that yuou encounter from yourself which is FEAR(the embodiment of all that is unexceptable in your! subconscious) yes it will scare u, doubt you, and want to trick you b/c it is you, just face yourself and everything will be ok =P



posted on Sep, 11 2008 @ 03:04 PM
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Originally posted by Alias.55A
its simple, but i didnt figure it out because i have a problem with thousands of thoughts running through my head from when i wake till when i sleep.


I dont know if this will have any effect on your problem of the constantly racing mind, but it may help. It is at least worth a try, if you are not already doing it.

I tend to analyze the spiritual advice with an eye for finding out, "why" they would advise a certain thing, not simply following it blindly.

Many, many of the traditions have a dietary requirement. The prescribe certain dietary changes for those really seeking to become more "enlightened." Krishnamurti, being more contemporary, was more clear on some of the "whys" AND, he had a favorite target. Stimulants. Caffeine, nicotine, sugar, and the more illegal stimulants.

All of those things "strengthen" or cause the mind to race, making the "control" or ability to see the thoughts as what they are, (the byproduct of the brain doing its thing, rather than "you") much more difficult.

You may already have cut out stimulants, but if you havent, I highly suggest a nice trial run. Give it a good month with NO caffeine, (nicotine as well if possible) and as little sugar as you can manage. Even seriously moderating the above substances can make the difference between the ability to maintain some awareness of the mind as opposed to being overwhelmed by it.

Bear in mind, this is not a judgment, that these things are "bad" but more an acknowledgment that certain chemicals seem to affect the mind in certain ways. If you want less racing thoughts, limiting your intake of certain chemicals can assist with that.

There are many other things the texts all seem to want you to avoid, such as meat, and how they act specifically on the body and mind I am not certain. Meat seems to be thought to raise fear and aggression, which also send the mind into a frenzy. How and why this might occur I really dont know. Stimulants though, are pretty cut and dried. We understand that they stimulate certain parts of the brain chemically, and I have not only experimented myself with this, but convinced a few friends who suffer from depression to test the theory that it would cut down the mental ruminating and chatter that seems to contribute to mental suffering. Everyone I asked, and myself, noticed a significant improvement when cutting out caffeine particularly.

I cant promise it will work for you, but it is easy enough, (after the 2-3 days of caffeine withdrawal headache) to test, and the results should appear quickly enough for you to judge for yourself. Mind you the mind will still do what it does, and you still have to use Awareness, but using the awareness may be much easier.

As a kind of a side note, I really liked this experiment on the affects of certain substances on "the mind" of spiders. Of all the substances given the spiders caffeine caused the "craziest" web.

en.wikipedia.org...




Now the link below will take you to something that is a "mockumentary" of the study, but it really is funny as heck. It does contain a couple words that are "swear" words, but they are presented pretty inoffensively.
Just a little comic relief.

www.break.com...

[edit on 11-9-2008 by Illusionsaregrander]



posted on Sep, 11 2008 @ 05:30 PM
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reply to post by Illusionsaregrander
 


geez....who knew a simple word like 'lifetime' would create such spark!
btw.....i didnt mean it in the literal sense.

You obviously haven’t read my posts correctly. i also wrote 'by other means' in which i wasent getting into b/c we'd be here all day. it seems you have more time than me.

In NO WAY have i mentioned that I’m an expert on “enlightment”
I have read many texts (to many to post here sorry) on the topic and think that it is in fact reached by forgoing ALL greed, hate and delusion which is extremely hard to do unless you have external assistance.

A person only reaches enlightment when they have become one with the universe and no longer will they circle in life. They are free from birth, suffering, death and rebirth.

Buddha actually didnt just sit under a tree. He meditated on the subject for 40 days beforehand and was then givan the honour. Thats not suddenly in my eyes.

We all obviously have our own thoughts on the matter and it’s therefore up to each individual to get informed and then decide on what information will help them sleep at night. For me it’s the above description which allows me to grasp the word..... therefore its really un-debatable.

anyhoo....the subject is awaken not enlightened.



posted on Sep, 11 2008 @ 05:54 PM
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Evening all.

Been away for a few days, time to catch up on this fascinating thread, so apologies for taking this back a couple of pages for those that are into new exchanges within the thread.

[quick edit here: I posted 5 times consecutively to catch up, so just page down past the pitbull if you get bored]

Anyway, here goes:

From Illusions:


Or, and this is a possibility that you could consider, the Aya experience may not take you the whole way. It could go either way, of course, and the natural experience falls short of the whole "view" as well, but you appear very certain that the Aya dose of '___' is the ultimate, where I personally question that. I could not know any more than you could if there is more beyond what I experienced. I can only know the limits of what I experienced. The same definitely applies to you. You cannot know if your experience of the '___' rush is "more" than or even equal to the "un-induced" version. However, I see in the outcome of the two types of experience a difference. By your own words, the Shamans that go there daily into the experience come back not so changed by it in their daily life. You say you feel the need to keep going back to it.


I cannot know unless I have a spontaneous 'enlightenment' experience, however, you could easily find out by taking a few cups of the medicine.

You say I feel the need to go back, well, it's more like a strong desire, but I'll admit there's something addictive to the experience of 'going home'.

As I explained, I like my self-knowledge on the hurry up. I learn more about myself in each and every 9 hour journey into the 'aluna' than 20-30 years in 3D studying the great mystics and philosophers, sitting in the dark for weeks, meditating in the forest and fasting, climbing the himalayas and sitting at the feet of the guru, etc etc.

Your experience was spontaneous and not of your volition, but if you could summon the experience at will are you honestly saying you would choose not to have it again?

Personally, if I had the courage, I'd be visiting the mirror worlds as often as my little heart could take it.

Yes, many people 'do psychotropics' in a very recreational manner. They drink a half cup, see a few fractal caverns and think they've done it and got the T-Shirt.

I do believe that to get a 'core experience', an 'overdose' is required, which is generally so unpleasant in parts that the desire to return is muted by the terror of reliving parts of the experience. Of the shamans I spoke with, they all have their story of the night their 'teacher' took them 'all the way', and made them drink more than they thought they could handle.

For those that go that far, the experience is indeed life changing and there is absolutely no way back across, as the bridge is well and truly burnt behind oneself.




That is the area I am "working on" most at this point in my life. Figuring out how to use what I see in the world, find it inside me, transform it, and then see the change manifest around me.


Wonderful.
An intense way to practice this is to perceive that each and every interaction you have with another human is actually you talking to yourself. Mentally asking 'What am I really saying to myself here?' or simply taking the words literally.

If you can get into the feeling of unity in the moment, then of course the other person isn't really some 'other' person.

Then the space between you and around you starts to wobble and go fuzzy and maybe time too.

This can get a bit bizarre if you begin to consider that the 'mirror-you' could be just pulling your leg or deliberately giving yourself misleading information, rather than useful or accurate feedback.

Careful, paranoia comes fast



[edit on 11/9/08 by RogerT]



posted on Sep, 11 2008 @ 06:10 PM
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the only ones to reach enlightment are people like buddha and monks alike. it takes many many years of self sacrifice and many years of solice and practice of compassion which then leads to 'enlightment'.


No, that's all part of the elitism of the religious and philosophical teaching and designed to make you feel seperate, insignificant, and worthless and in need of a higher being to talk to god on your behalf.

I suggest you visit a few Buddhist Monasteries and meet some of the 'so-called' enlightened souls. some of them wouldn't even know how to plug in the toaster if their minions didn't do it for them. (Yes I have, met them).

I can't speak for Buddha, but Jesus got such a 'messiah complex' he actually started believing he was the son of god and needed to be nailed to a cross. Talk about losing the plot!

I stayed for a while with this really cool Swami in Rhotak, just north of Dehli. He was awesome, could walk through fire, lie on broken glass and have an elephant walk on him and all that cool stuff, yet he was a complete and utter junk hoarding freak who was also a bit messed up on his philosophies about sex.

Many said he was enlightened (he was trained since boyhood), although he said he was nothing compared to some others he knew, which was one of his most redeeming qualities and in my opinion one of the marks of a bit of a master. Even so, he still got upset if we didn't sit at a lower level than him - he said knowledge couldn't go upwards !

[edit on 11/9/08 by RogerT]



posted on Sep, 11 2008 @ 06:23 PM
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To illusions and V:



I am aware that it will make some feel that I am only echoing, and they may then discount what I say as second hand, but I am not here to convince them.


I would imagine that anyone with even a little perception can spot the difference between someone borrowing choice words to describe a personal experience, and someone trying to look good by reporting something that they read (and probably didn't understand or connect with) as fact.

The tones that resonate quite clearly from your posts do all the convincing necessary. x


As for not wanting to re-invent the wheel, why not give it a go, there's nothing more refreshing than original ideas, or old ideas conveyed in an original way


Re the ancient teachers, perhaps it was not their words that conveyed the knowledge, but instead an energetic thing passed directly just by being in close proximity. Touch the cloak and heal your illness. Still works today I am told.




For me, there was no approaching of it. It wasnt a conscious decision at all. I wasnt looking for it, and I didnt have any preparation for it. Not having a "centered" or "balanced" nature when it occurred DID leave me with a mess to clean up afterward, but I personally do not think I would have had the experience without the mess.


I'm gonna be belligerent as usual and assert that if an experience like this doesn't leave you with a 'mess' to clean up, then it wasn't the experience we are discussing in this thread. No matter how balanced and centered you think you are, experiencing ego death is going to be disruptive to the ego, and I don't believe anyone who says they live in 3D without the influence of an ego and can therefore handle it without a ripple.




Perhaps because the Ego drives the desire to pursue the experience, the whole coin is never flipped in a contrived experience, the Ego stays present, even if greatly diminished, and the total surrender of the "self" never occurs. Maybe Aya or some chemical could act as catalyst for the experience, if the Ego were not so tightly controlling the show. For instance if the ingestion were accidental.


Upon taking their first drink, a 'first time traveller' may hear the comments 'well there is no turning back now'. They will not understand this until they are in the thick of their journey and realise they cannot get out of it, and must ride the roller coaster to the end. Such is the power of '___'. Ego can buy you the ticket but it cannot tell you which station to get on or off at.
IME, the ego can accompany you at times, and can either amuse or irritate with it's constant narrative, but it cannot steer the direction, let alone determine the destination.

[edit on 11/9/08 by RogerT]



posted on Sep, 11 2008 @ 06:53 PM
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I am trying to be nice and not come from a place of “strong ego” in this reply. Having said that, I think you are really oversimplifying here. It sounds like you are judging others that have experienced darkness after awakening and you are assuming that it must be because they were “not ready for it” or they are “not evolved or intelligent enough to process it properly”.


Don't be nice, be dark


I don't believe any kind of serious long term wakefulness is possible without experiencing and 'marrying' your dark.

Getting dark is part of the process of waking up IMO.

I'm sure V would agree though, that what he is implying is that a little self-knowledge can be quite a disturbing thing, especially if you were residing under the cosy illusion that you were a fairly decent chap


Without a little balance, or perhaps some external (or internal) support, some may become stuck in the depression that normally follows the initial whiff of ones own stink. But hey, that's just their journey right, and who are we to say they should not 'seek the path'?

[edit on 11/9/08 by RogerT]



posted on Sep, 11 2008 @ 07:19 PM
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A person only reaches enlightment when they have become one with the universe and no longer will they circle in life. They are free from birth, suffering, death and rebirth.


Yes, we can all see you've read lots of texts from your posts. The thing is, we are happily discussing personal experiences here, and the key to that is knowing that our experiences are just that, unique to us. Therefore, making absolute statements as fact puts you in the 'Hey this is what I read and am one day hoping to achieve' camp.

Lighten up, stop trying to impress us with your intellect and vaccuous regurgitation of 'buddhism 101', and share some of your truly interesting experience. Saying you're too busy and it will take too long sounds to me like more 'trying to impress with a bit of mystery'. If you didn't waste your time posting rhetoric, you could make a start on the other stuff you're keeping under your sleeve.

Come on, give your posts on this thread the respect and time it deserves. I dare ya


[edit on 11/9/08 by RogerT]



posted on Sep, 12 2008 @ 07:30 AM
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Originally posted by RogerT

A person only reaches enlightment when they have become one with the universe and no longer will they circle in life. They are free from birth, suffering, death and rebirth.


Yes, we can all see you've read lots of texts from your posts. The thing is, we are happily discussing personal experiences here, and the key to that is knowing that our experiences are just that, unique to us. Therefore, making absolute statements as fact puts you in the 'Hey this is what I read and am one day hoping to achieve' camp.

Lighten up, stop trying to impress us with your intellect and vaccuous regurgitation of 'buddhism 101', and share some of your truly interesting experience. Saying you're too busy and it will take too long sounds to me like more 'trying to impress with a bit of mystery'. If you didn't waste your time posting rhetoric, you could make a start on the other stuff you're keeping under your sleeve.

Come on, give your posts on this thread the respect and time it deserves. I dare ya


[edit on 11/9/08 by RogerT]


i am far from wanting to acheive enlightment.

me lighten up? my PERSONAL experiences have actually lead me to write what i have posted. sure some of what i say comes from books though show me a post on the meaning of enlightment that dosent? do you want to hear that i have studied buddhism in India, lived in ashrams and met the Dahli Lama...will that give me more credability here??


beleive me i have no mystery to me. i could not evan fathom the ammount of time it would take to get to the real meaning of enlightment and what it takes to get there.

i dont post here for respect. i post because i thought as others i could contribute. obviously not.....



posted on Sep, 12 2008 @ 08:03 AM
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Originally posted by enlighten2012
A person only reaches enlightment when they have become one with the universe and no longer will they circle in life. They are free from birth, suffering, death and rebirth.

my PERSONAL experiences have actually lead me to write what i have posted. sure some of what i say comes from books though show me a post on the meaning of enlightment that dosent?


Please explain how your personal experiences lead you to make the statement above. I am sure we would all be very interested to hear about it if you are willing to share.

And yes, actually a LOT of the posts in this thread are about personal experiences. I have not seen any other posters say their *personal experience* has lead them to believe in any rules or understanding of the great “master plan” at all (channelling doesn’t count). Quite the opposite.



posted on Sep, 12 2008 @ 02:17 PM
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reply to post by enlighten2012
 


Well I got a star and so did you, so clearly at least one other person thinks I should back off and one other person is also bored by your bible quotes and wants you to divulge the info you keep suggesting you have yet don't have time to share with us


I was just hoping I could provoke you into making a more interesting contribution. No worries.



posted on Sep, 12 2008 @ 03:14 PM
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Originally posted by RogerT

As for not wanting to re-invent the wheel, why not give it a go, there's nothing more refreshing than original ideas, or old ideas conveyed in an original way


Mostly I avoid reinventing the wheel because I am quite aware that I simply cannot seem to say anything briefly.
So far in the discussion, we have been rehashing pretty well traveled ground. With some small exceptions. The using of the "mirror" being one of them. I actually do use a version of what you suggested, maintaining the understanding that I am talking to myself when dealing with others. I also try to maintain the understanding that it is not "me" talking to "me" but the Self that we both share talking to us both, if that makes sense. (which may very well be what you mean, I just have to be specific) In more "religious" terms, it is the Divine having a conversation with itself, utilizing us both in the process, and our individual identities can "listen in" and gain from it if we can hold our individual identity more loosely. If you identify with "your" end of the conversation too firmly, or, if you mistake the other person as something more or less real than "you" (in Ego terms) you lose the full benefit of what is being said.

That principle of mirroring is what I was referring to on an energy or emotional level as well. If I run into turbulent energy in an "other," (anger, frustration, etc.) as soon as I am able to gain some level of control over how much I am identifying with my end of the emotional interaction, I look inside to find that "mirror" image of the energy or emotion I am seeing as "external" within. And then I apply awareness and acceptance to it internally to manifest the external change, rather than trying to calm the energy of the "other" by external means. Then I might use external means, such as a conversation, to "hear it out," if it seems to want to be physically heard (intellectually understood) as well as felt.

Though technically, I do not think that this is truly new ground. I think this is a more refined way of saying what Jesus was trying to convey about "loving thy brother as thyself" and "doing unto others" etc. I think he was aware of this principle. I do tend to agree with you that in the end, something went awry with how Jesus was navigating the practical application of the experience. I do agree that the death portion had something to do with it, and I do think that his cultural and religious understanding of what "had" to happen for salvation influenced the "what went awry." I do not think in the long term it was an "error" I dont think their are long term errors. (The Self has infinity to play the game of "life") But I feel he took the concept of "death" or "sacrifice" as the way to salvation for the many into the literal the physical when I do not feel that is where it has to go. As you allude to, that became an ego issue itself. "I" have to die to save "others." Which, is a violation of the truth of Oneness. (As I see it, and I could very well be wrong.) It is not so different (except in subtlety) from the "I am special" game that all egos want to play. Most egos want to be exalted. "I am special and above you." Martyrdom is the same coin, only the opposite side, "I am special in my humbleness and willingness to be below you." I would think that more accurately, there is no "you" for me to be either above nor below. There is no coin, but a sphere.

Mind you I am not saying that my "reasoning" is the be all and end all. I think that the application of the Truth in the "physical" realm is like the onion. We work on it layer by layer. I think that ultimately, even if I am not completely mistaken, (which is possible) my (this minds) understanding is merely another layer, which will be peeled away by an "other" as well.


Originally posted by RogerT
No matter how balanced and centered you think you are, experiencing ego death is going to be disruptive to the ego, and I don't believe anyone who says they live in 3D without the influence of an ego and can therefore handle it without a ripple.


I agree. I dont think it has been done, but I think it could be. Not by denying the ego while in the 3d however, but by disassociating the concept of "me" from it. I dont think the ego is going anywhere in this game. I think the "smoothness" with which you are able to navigate the game is dependent on "how much do I believe this identity, this mind, these thoughts are ME." If it were a video game, how able am I to remember and play while remembering that I am the "player" and not the character? The Self itself who is not "separate" (as we normally think of separate) from the individual, but that is also not dependent upon, or contained by any "one" individual. If one were able to have an ego and be fully aware on all the subtle "levels" that that was "not me" I think one could navigate smoothly without a ripple. I have not done (100% all the time) this myself. But I have played with the percentages and I do have a practical (experiential) reason to believe that the ripples I experience are not from the having of the the ego, but by mistaking my Self for it. The less I make that mistake, or get caught up in that, the less turbulent or unpleasant my experience is, regardless what happens to "me." And the more able I become to see cause and effect in the game, (known as "karma" in some traditions) and can choose to refrain from putting my illusory finger into illusory flame.


Originally posted by RogerT
Upon taking their first drink, a 'first time traveller' may hear the comments 'well there is no turning back now'. They will not understand this until they are in the thick of their journey and realise they cannot get out of it, and must ride the roller coaster to the end. Such is the power of '___'. Ego can buy you the ticket but it cannot tell you which station to get on or off at.
IME, the ego can accompany you at times, and can either amuse or irritate with it's constant narrative, but it cannot steer the direction, let alone determine the destination.


Yes. I do get that. What I am wondering is, is it there, is it still "you" at the end of the journey, whether it gets to control the "trip" or not? The necessity of the ego's presence is real in the 3d, but the experience I had, took me beyond the 3d. At the destination, "I" and "my self" (my small self, the ego) were not "together" the way we think of together. I could sense "me" but I could also sense all other "me's" and there was no attachment or sense of personal identification to "me" or to any of the myriad "mes" either. "I" was with the One that is All with no exclusion of or special favor for any aspect. I could feel all things as "me" and at the same time, without the division that is necessary to say it, that I was the undivided One in which all the "divisions" were. So, though "my" identity still "was" it was not "me." "I" was wholly independent of it, but at the same time, it still was. In fact to say there was any sense of "I" at all is not accurate completely. I just cant find words. If "I Am" is the name of God, the experience felt like "Am," no "I."

I wish someone could run the experiment of trying it both ways, induced and natural. (Or several someones actually, to make it statistically relevant,) But, I just dont see that happening. I think we are just going to have to muddle through accepting that we cannot know if the two types of experiences are equivalent, though both very clearly have an impact on the way we view "what is real." We are going to have to accept that there seems to be differences in how we have translated it in our minds, and in the details of what is "seen" but we simply do not have the data that would allow us to say same or not same.



posted on Sep, 12 2008 @ 05:03 PM
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Originally posted by enlighten2012

You obviously haven’t read my posts correctly. i also wrote 'by other means' in which i wasent getting into b/c we'd be here all day. it seems you have more time than me.


You may well be right on both points. I may not have read your posts correctly, and I may have more free time than you.

I was basing my response to you on;


Originally posted by enlighten2012
enlightment cant be reached easily and i doubt very much that anyone on this site has or ever will.

the only ones to reach enlightment are people like buddha and monks alike. it takes many many years of self sacrifice and many years of solice and practice of compassion which then leads to 'enlightment'.


as well as;


Originally posted by enlighten2012
i have read alot of spiritual texts though and beleive that the factual meaning of enlightment can only be reached by people who have lived, eaten and breathed spirituality over their lifetimes. there are also others though i will be here for ages explaining.


I disagree with that, and built my case for it, but I want to be clear that you are free to disagree with me right back. I would like to see where you get that assumption, as well as the "other ways" you mentioned when you get the time. I changed my major from business to philosophy after my experience. One of the down sides of training in philosophy is that you learn to build a case. For everything. In that major you can not make any "unjustified" statement of opinion without drawing sharp criticism or bad grades. By unjustified I mean a statement that you do not support somehow either with supporting text or an explanation of your own reasoning so that the reader can trace your intellectual steps. I, oh so obviously, agree with that approach. I think one should take care to make ones point of view and reasoning behind it clear enough that whomever is reading or listening can figure out if they agree or disagree. You are not a wordy writer, but the repetition led me to believe I had a grasp on your point of view. If what I was disagreeing with wasnt your point of view, correct me.
I wont be offended in any way. I am wrong so often that I no longer feel particularly bad about yet another instance of wrongness.

My reply to you wasnt meant as an attack, or a criticism of YOU, (only the view point) and you absolutely are wanted as a participant. I DO want to hear your views not despite the fact that you disagree with me, but because of that. We are not all agreeing with each other here, we are discussing. We have disagreed amongst ourselves several times, (and hopefully will continue to) and sometimes we have discovered that we didnt really disagree we just said it differently, but sometimes we just agreed to disagree.



Originally posted by enlighten2012
In NO WAY have i mentioned that I’m an expert on “enlightment”
I have read many texts (to many to post here sorry) on the topic and think that it is in fact reached by forgoing ALL greed, hate and delusion which is extremely hard to do unless you have external assistance.


You have not claimed to be an expert and you have been very forthright on that point. And there are portions of the texts that support your assertion. I just disagree with the conclusion, whether it is in the texts or not. There is other testimony in the texts that contradicts that, and I believe that the portions that stress the "specialness" of the experience are not directly attributed to those that had it, (the Buddha in the Eastern texts) but rather his followers. I cant demonstrate that (or prove myself wrong, either way) unless you lay out your case for it. Since you did not just automatically build a case for your view, I built one for mine.



Originally posted by enlighten2012
anyhoo....the subject is awaken not enlightened.



When you open your eyes in the morning, you see the sun. You both "awaken" and "see the light." I think the definition of enlightenment may play a large part in our disagreement. I do not see being "Awake" and being "enlightened" as different. In fact, Buddha means "awakened."

www.parami.org...

I just think that there are many things that can happen after one wakes up.

One can go back to sleep, one can hit "snooze" repeatedly, one can stay awake and bounce out the door with no resistance, one can walk around half asleep and groggy and cranky. Or, one can do several of the above and then some variations I havent thought of yet. I think many of us are not the "hear the alarm, wake up and jump out of bed perky and happy" sorts. Many of us here were having a fairly good dream, and woke up a little pissy and groggy, and like someone else said, kept hitting snooze. I dont think thats a failure, just the way some people wake up.

I do not think that there is a difference in the awakening itself, but what happens following it.



posted on Sep, 12 2008 @ 07:58 PM
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Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
You obviously haven’t read my posts correctly. i also wrote 'by other means' in which i wasent getting into b/c we'd be here all day. it seems you have more time than me.


Obviously he/she missed that "by other means" line. How so, I have no clue. : )

Edit -- This thread has been so very good. And Illusions you have truly shared wisdom, be in the moment. Yes common sense but sometimes so easily forgotten.

Okay rambling, for some reason (which I honestly cannot recall) the song Karma Police popped into my head the last 2 days. So I looked it up on youtube, and can we say synchronicity?

Yes I know I am not a philosophical writer but seriously...it was weird. The video (which I have never seen before) takes place in an old cadillac....70's model. I owned one and miss it, every detail shocked me, and brought me back. Truly moving. I know this thread is about intellect and words...but it moved me and truly it was inspired...forgive the intrusion of a video clip but it is truly very appropriate...

Did I use the word truly enough? Not sure. : )





[edit on 12-9-2008 by Sonya610]



posted on Sep, 12 2008 @ 10:56 PM
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The only appropriate thing for me to say here is thanks. Sincerely, thanks


[edit: Well, it was at the time]

Having stepped away I thought a lot about the request to talk about personal experiences and the speculation as to why people don't. I can tell you why I haven't talked about my experiences.

The truth is, I feel that I'm not supposed to. Not because it's a bad thing, but more because it could make things more difficult. (Really, I should say I haven't found any value is sharing the more personal aspects.) I find I'm very fragile, is the best way to put it. (I've always been empathic and found it difficult to deal with.) I've ended most of my personal relationships (Save one and how I ever got to be so lucky is beyond me.) because I don't deal well with the emotional swings of most people. (And I find people I've known most of my life have chosen courses that are "contradictory" to mine which isn't for me about judging them but judging what is best for my own emotional and spiritual well being.) I've also tried to limit most other outside info because I know the desire for human contact can overwhelm me to the point of deliriously following a path I already know the conclusion too. I guess in a way I'm trying to keep my options open by closing the ones I don't need.

But my experiences here so far, that is to say the folks I've noticed, have helped me see that my light isn't quite so dim after all, since, as corny as it sounds, just knowing there's another light out there makes mine stronger. Which is why still the only appropriate thing for me to say is, "Thanks". I hope I can do the same for someone else.

[edit on 12-9-2008 by TravelerintheDark]

[edit on 13-9-2008 by TravelerintheDark]



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