False/half awakenings (spiritually speaking), getting through it.

reply to post by Sonya610


I can definitively say, without reservation, that my life is enormously better.

However, it was not just the experience itself that changed it. In fact, immediately following the experience, it seemed to get worse in the short run. Mainly because all of a sudden everything I had been trying to do with my life seemed irrelevant, (Focusing on money, competing, etc.) but I didnt as yet have any mental understanding of how to live in a different way.

At first, I just kept trying to force the same path. I just tried to keep doing the same things I had always done. I didnt know what else to do, and the experience didnt change my "mind" it didnt change what I thought I was or what I thought I wanted. What it provided for me was a counter point, and when I would hit a brick wall, and suffer accordingly, (mental suffering mostly) I would then have to ask myself "Why, given that everything can be so smooth and good as was shown to me, am I suffering so much now?" I had to figure out, and take responsibility for the choices I was making.

For me, it was the endless contemplation or philosophizing, that gave me those answers. As Roger points out, you are still in the 3d world, and as the thinking mind is 3d, (though the Awareness itself is not) somehow, that experience that is not 3d has to be translated into 3d terms that the mind and the body, (the 3d you) can use in a practical way to make this experience of life more consistent with the vision. Maybe some people immediately sort it through, but I did not, and because I did read quite a bit about other people who have had the experience after I had mine, (so I could understand it,) it seems that for most there is a period of some years that a "sorting" or "peeling the layers" occurs. I think you have to be an active, willing participant in this peeling or sorting for it to go that quickly. (if one can think of a couple years as quickly) Maybe it will sort itself if you dont go along with it, but I am a realist in that if there is hard labor to be done, I try to just dig in and get it over with. Putting it off or avoiding it doesnt make it go any faster, nor does it tend to make it go away.

So, after my initial "just do what I was doing" reaction, I just dug in and started examining the "whys" when things were not smooth. In my "enlightening" experience, there was a struggle not to die, followed by a "surrender." In the moment of surrender, my entire experience (which was one of suffering, fear, anger at my impending death, etc.) flipped over into absolute bliss. Complete non resistance, which felt amazing. Not bliss in the manic sense, but so smooth, peaceful, better than chocolate. Thats when I died and merged into the One, etc.

However, I took that "what happened as it became smooth" concept and examined it. It was "not struggling." Not fighting what was. Letting go of the mental resistance. Surrender. And, I realized that you dont have to die to do that. You can do that moment by moment in your life. As an analogy, it has transformed my life from a furious swim upstream in a fast moving current to one that feels more like floating down a river in an inner tube. I wont lie and say I NEVER try to paddle upstream when see a big rock or a waterfall ahead, I sure do, but just not for long. I quickly remember the futility of it, and turn and face the boulder or waterfall and figure out how to navigate around it, or in the case of the water fall, let go and enjoy the fall, be the outcome what it may. And, because I am now flowing WITH the current, I dont stay in "violent" areas of the river as long. I move through the rapids more quickly, and often on the other side I find long stretches of river that are gentle, meandering, incredibly pleasant. Before, when I was swimming upstream with all my might, not only was I exhausted and afraid, I was also unwittingly keeping myself in the worst most scary parts of the river longer than I needed to. I wasnt able to beat the current and move up the river out of it, nor was I allowing myself to move through the rapids to the calmer places downstream. It was totally self defeating, and it made me miserable.

And, for me, it has worked in a practical way. Not struggling to change everything, control everything, enjoying the journey and not trying to force a specific destination has made a HUGE difference in the overall feel of my life, how I perceive others, and how I feel about myself. I still have resistance sometimes. But like I said, it just doesnt last as long. I remember that it is the resistance itself that creates the pain and I just turn back around, face it head on, and jump. And everytime I consciously shoot the rapids and see how exhilarating it feels to do it without all the crying, struggling, whining, etc. the less I dread the next "waterfall."

For me, the vision or enlightenment experience itself is like the vision of a beautiful home that pops into an architects head. It is beautiful, and it shows you what you would like to live in. But, plans need to be drawn up. Measurements made, the "site" (you the physical landscape) and its particular characteristics need to be accounted for, then the physical movement, the labor, has to be performed. Then, the house is made manifest and it can be lived in. It still needs "upkeep." And sometimes the roof leaks or you get a crack in your foundation, or some other major repair or adjustment needs to be done, BUT you are in the house, and it is pretty nice. It doesnt seem to just go from "vision" to "manifest reality" here in the 3d world without 3d participation, including 3d mental participation. Maybe someday, maybe that is possible, but not for me, right now, so far.

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


Illusions - this thread has become so full of info - I've been skimming - intending to go thru it and read it all later - which is now

missed this question - but I like it

I've wondered if you don't get glimpses now and then as a nudge

to remind you to pay attention - because you're starting to drift

my most memorable experiences have come when I am the farthest away from thinking about anything deeper than "my feet are cold?" or "I need soap"

once there I end up wondering why I would ever leave this "place"

but of course I always do -

but in addition to the nudge - if I happen to get to that place - I always try to make a connection between what I was just thinking/doing and the state I'm in - and sometimes I see something I needed t see

the lesson isn't in the state itself - but looking at where you just were

it's the jarring sensation of being woke up in the middle of a dream - and actually getting the point of the dream before it fades

only the dream was my waking state

reply to post by Spiramirabilis


Yes. That getting "jarred awake" in my waking life was very common in the early years. It is less common now, not because it wouldnt happen, but because I am less often completely asleep at the wheel.

Most of the time, I know what I am doing when I do it now. Even when I am choosing to do something that is not consistent with what I deeply understand to be the better thing for me to do.

Most of the time, I choose to stay awake, but there are still times when I have drifted off and then I get that "wake up call" in some form, and yes, it does cause me to pay close attention to what I was thinking or doing while "dozing."

I also consciously use situations to help me see the things in myself that are "out of my view" or that are so deeply buried in my "self" or mind or identity that I still cannot see them directly. I use the world as a mirror, in a sense, to see my own face.

As an example, if I am running into a lot of pissed off people, pushing and shoving, I do not think "what the heck is their problem, jerks." Well, I might for a second, but the next thing I do is stop, center myself, and examine my own energy. I give the time and awareness I need to "find that" inside me, and I just look at it. See it for what it is. Then when it settles down, I get moving again. I become more conscious of the energy I am creating within myself, and more conscious of how that same energy is manifest around me. There can be a pretty significant change.

That is the area I am "working on" most at this point in my life. Figuring out how to use what I see in the world, find it inside me, transform it, and then see the change manifest around me. I am not terribly good at it. At least on the biggest scale, but I am finding it is not so difficult to change my immediate surroundings in terms of the energy. I dont make people appear or disappear, obviously, but I can usually make a pissed off person a calm person not by focusing on them or trying to placate them and the like, but rather by maintaining consciousness of my own reaction and internal state while dealing with them. I feel that it is entirely possible to change the whole world by changing your Self, I do not feel the concept has any natural limit except for the limit we impose by not being aware of the Oneness, that we all share the same Self. The further, I feel, you can extend your "Self" or identity outward into the whole, the more you can change by changing yourself.

So far, I am only able to extend myself in very limited directions outside my own "person." I also am not so perfectly awake and aware all the time that I think there is much good I could do beyond calming down an aggressive spot here and there. The further I go into knowing my Self, the more I become aware of how little I really know. Even though I am light years from where I was when I had the experience initially, I realize I am lightyears to the 1000 power from what any of us could be capable of ideally.

reply to post by RogerT


Sorry RgrT, I was 'afk' for a day! Couldn't give you reply earlier, but you can trust me that I eagerly waited to see what you have said!

Originally posted by RogerT
Yeah yeah I've read all that stuff too

I wonder if you are perhaps hinting that I only echo what I've read? I am not suggesting that you are (ie putting words to your mouth), but nevertheless I'd like to say that I speak from experience also. I don't want to go into details right now.

Originally posted by RogerT
Philosophy is fun as a mental exercise, but I'm gonna say it's highly overrated as a means to living. when you're thinking, you're usually missing the experience!

I don't consider it as 'fun' but rather as a work. Of course, I am not making my mundane payroll out of it I guess I wouldn't be talking here on ATS if I would, but who knows?

Yes, I often refer to the texts of some philosophers, mystics and 'alchemists' &/c but hopefully I am not quoting them in order to 'appear clever', but because they have said something that is true - at least in to my opinion. Why to invent the wheel again?

I was becoming into that aya experience of yours as well, but I see that Illusionsaregrander has really said what I had to say about it, so I just skip that part and add few remarks: While experiences achieved by using stimulating essences can appear to one as a mystical experience and be very convincing that all this merely 'illusions', there is more on that. Not that I would explicitly disvalue every 'medicine man' out there, but often they are not the very best kind of people, in the sense social and individual outcome.

While '___' and such substances / hormones or whatever may be related to these experiences, but without producing them naturally from within they are greatly distorted and the veil of your own 'personality' is often adding it's own 'flavour' to these experiences. Again, I speak from experience.

Be very well!

Sincerely,

-v

PS. to not make it so serious:


[edit on 8-9-2008 by v01i0]

reply to post by Sonya610


Hello Sonya,

Originally posted by Sonya610
But how many can honestly say life seems better "after" rather than before? The extreme highs and lows maybe muted, the "desire" for many things maybe deadened, but is existence better or worse?
[edit on 7-9-2008 by Sonya610]

That is a very good question! And it appears to me that this will take us back to the OP! Lemme explain myself:

There is terrible loneliness. You are alone, no one can really help or comfort you; expect yourself of course! Not literally, but quite: You are in the desert, alone and suffering. If this experience remains incomplete, this terrible loneliness can drag you down into cynicism and despair - that is the reason why I consider this dangerous in some way. One that is not ready for this realization, shouldn't even approach it, but first strenghten oneself to face 'the reality'. I don't know if you personally know these types of people, but I do. They are extremely clever yes, they understand a lot about the world, politics, economics and so on - but they lack the joy of life because they have despaired in front of something, that appears to be great evil in the world. They don't really see the point in anything. They are incomplete and they are suffering.

But when you are really there, this doesn't bother you at all. You can enjoy the serenity of your body/soul/spirit to it's fullest extent and there is no boundaries for the joy and beaty that one can achieve.

So if you are going to 'awake', make sure you are really meaning it, that you are prepared for this terrible feeling of loneliness because there is a great propability that most on the path will encounter it in some phase.

I wish you all the best!

Sincerely,

-v

my $.02, perhaps the phase of waiting is where we are supposed to be at this time. If we are all part of the divine, and on the path, perhaps seeing the possibility of enlightenment is but one stage of the process, and it is natural to have it dangled in front of you to learn lessons through the dissappointment or confusion in the interim. Perhaps it is all part of the learning process, and when we are truly meant to reach out and grasp it, we will know. That is the idea i hold onto when i feel my frustration of clarity that i possessed for a small time and lost, that i am where i am supposed to be, by virtue of being a piece of divinity and perfection by virtue of existence, and when i am ready to pass those gates permanently the understanding will come to me.

Originally posted by pexx421
my $.02, perhaps the phase of waiting is where we are supposed to be at this time. If we are all part of the divine, and on the path, perhaps seeing the possibility of enlightenment is but one stage of the process, and it is natural to have it dangled in front of you to learn lessons through the dissappointment or confusion in the interim. Perhaps it is all part of the learning process, and when we are truly meant to reach out and grasp it, we will know. That is the idea i hold onto when i feel my frustration of clarity that i possessed for a small time and lost, that i am where i am supposed to be, by virtue of being a piece of divinity and perfection by virtue of existence, and when i am ready to pass those gates permanently the understanding will come to me.

great analogy

all posts on here are really great! will also throw my 2c in.....

enlightment cant be reached easily and i doubt very much that anyone on this site has or ever will.

the only ones to reach enlightment are people like buddha and monks alike. it takes many many years of self sacrifice and many years of solice and practice of compassion which then leads to 'enlightment'.

sure many are 'awaken' though they are totally 2 differant things.
not to say though any one is less important than the other. being awake or open minded brings you to a state of bliss and happiness period. we should all just try and be as loving and kind as possible to ourselves and others and karma will then show us the way.

this is all airy fairy sure and people may read these posts and say 'nut jobs' though searching for answers is pointless because we already know the answers....we just have to put them in motion.

reply to post by Harman


great thread starter harman

you go join your community because you'll kick yourself if you dont give it a try. it might not be for everyone though stuff everyone. you have questions you need answering and why not try differant approaches.

i've been to ashrams ect and dont regret one second. every moment is a lesson and wether or not your senses say 'hell yeah that was amazing' know that not a moment in your life is a waste.

Originally posted by enlighten2012
great thread starter harman

you go join your community because you'll kick yourself if you dont give it a try. it might not be for everyone though stuff everyone. you have questions you need answering and why not try differant approaches.

i've been to ashrams ect and dont regret one second. every moment is a lesson and wether or not your senses say 'hell yeah that was amazing' know that not a moment in your life is a waste.

Thanks for the encouragement . And i may do that. The only 'problem' i have is that i do not know where i could be in the best place.

The advantages of being in a open-minded community where the chances of finding like-minded souls are bigger than where i am now are pretty obvious.

On the other hand where i am now i may be in solitude in regard to my beliefs and thoughts about reality and everything within it but this is where the choas will hit (if it hits) and there will be a need of people that are 'in the know' for some of the things coming. So that is a bit of what i see as a challenge. For ME it would be better (on the short run) to go and join a new-age hippy community and meditate my butt of while being holistic about everything but on the long run (maybe) a cool headed aproach on all that may come would be more valuable if you look at the big picture. There is a shoe waiting eagerly to be dropped and i'd like to be with my friends/family when it does.

The past several days have been most interesting for me, and there seems to be something in the air. I can feel it, or so it seems. Perhaps it is just me wishing, waiting, and wanting for a great change to take place, perhaps not. I only say this because I have been noticing many odd things on TV lately. On MTV there was a commercial on consciousness and awakenings, and then on the MVAs the host was speaking about love and how it truly is all there is, and then on the Opera show Jim Cary was speaking about how there is a mass awakening going on around the world. I want this to happen, and have wanted this to happen for some time and now it is? This is very odd, but very good. The time is now, and I am ready.

reply to post by enlighten2012

Originally posted by enlighten2012
enlightment cant be reached easily and i doubt very much that anyone on this site has [...]

What comes to me, I agree. About others, I simply don't know.

Originally posted by enlighten2012
[...] or ever will.

About that I sincerely do hope that you are wrong

Originally posted by enlighten2012
the only ones to reach enlightment are people like buddha and monks alike. it takes many many years of self sacrifice and many years of solice and practice of compassion which then leads to 'enlightment'.

I doubt that buddha and monks are only ones enlightened, but I take your word of it. What can I say since you state this with such expertise.

Originally posted by enlighten2012
sure many are 'awaken' though they are totally 2 differant things.

Couldn't agree more! Many people in this thread has stated same thing! It must be true!

I wish you the best,

-v

That video was very funny. Lol. It definitely responded to Rogers point about philosophy very well.

Originally posted by v01i0
I wonder if you are perhaps hinting that I only echo what I've read? I am not suggesting that you are (ie putting words to your mouth), but nevertheless I'd like to say that I speak from experience also.

I think a lot of people do assume when one uses the writings of others to make a point that you are just echoing what you have read. I am not just echoing either, the experience and understanding preceded the reading for me, but like you said, why reinvent the wheel? Some of the finest minds on the planet that have also had the experience spents decades of their lives perfecting the use of language to describe this experience. For me, it has only been 8 years this October. There is a "knowing" or intellectual grasping curve, with this experience, though the "gnosis" is instant, and I consider my place on it sort of in the low middle range compared to the predecessors. Why not borrow their very excellent words?

I am aware that it will make some feel that I am only echoing, and they may then discount what I say as second hand, but I am not here to convince them. What would the point of that be? It would first and foremost for me be a violation of Oneness. Who and what would I be trying to convince? And what element of "me" could possibly care so much for what an "other" decided to think of my report? It isnt that my ego doesnt respond to the criticism. It does. It is just that I know it is the ego that cares how I am viewed, and that ultimately, the feelings of "others" about the experience only matters if I intend to make "guruship" a career. Which I dont.

Writing down the "way" in excellent words has not worked for those so much more adept than I, why should I expect that my excellent words if I find them will be any different? The predecessors were successful in that they attracted "followers" (which many of them did not really seek, like Krishnamurti) but who has succeeded in consistently bringing enlightenment to their followers? I think the disappointment expressed by many of the posters and their cynicism towards the texts and the "paths" laid out by the ancients illustrates clearly that even words written by the most adept are empty shells devoid of true "meaning" unless something has already opened your eyes and cleared the fluff from your ears.

The truth about "enlightenment" is not "sexy" or "exciting" enough for the ego. (Unless the ego can grab it and spin it into something it is not, a "proof" of its individual "specialness") Plato says about this phenomenon when writing about why he will not express the mystic truths directly;

classics.mit.edu...

But I do not think it a good thing for men that there should be a disquisition, as it is called, on this topic-except for some few, who are able with a little teaching to find it out for themselves. As for the rest, it would fill some of them quite illogically with a mistaken feeling of contempt, and others with lofty and vain-glorious expectations, as though they had learnt something high and mighty.

Lao Tzu says of this;

academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu...

41
When a superior man hears of the Tao,
he immediately begins to embody it.
When an average man hears of the Tao,
he half believes it, half doubts it.
When a foolish man hears of the Tao,
he laughs out loud.
If he didn't laugh,
it wouldn't be the Tao.

I personally write not to convince the unconvincable, but to clarify concepts for myself, (because others present questions or problems I might not think of on my own that are important to the intellectual understanding) and to maybe find companions, not followers. The only thing I have to offer that is lacking from the ancient "sacred" texts, is an account of the difficulty of translating the experience into something practical. That part is left out of the sacred texts by the followers of the great adepts. It, too, is not sexy enough for the ego, and it diminishes the "godliness" of those they deify if the difficulties are reported.

Like you said in another post, it is a lonely place. The irony of seeing the Oneness or interconnection of "All that is" is that here, in the 3d world it leaves "you" as an individual mind so disconnected from "others." Not because they ARE different from you, but because they cannot see that they are not. That to me is the real beauty of the "sacred" texts and secular writings of the many who have become "enlightened" but not deified, they have been my friends. They gave me comfort, let me know I am not alone, and left tools for the intellectual understanding process that speeded up the translation from "experience" to the practical "knowing" that we need here in this form. It will not give you the experience perhaps, but if you have had the experience, it can help you understand it mentally, it can give you concepts to help your mind frame it in a way the mind can understand.

I also think that as Plato and Lao Tzu both allude to, there are those on the brink, standing on the edge of the experience, who are open enough that reading the words will send them over the edge, into them Self.

Originally posted by v01i0
Not that I would explicitly disvalue every 'medicine man' out there, but often they are not the very best kind of people, in the sense social and individual outcome.

Jesus said of this;

www.biblegateway.com...

15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.

If you have had an experience, and this experience has not changed your understanding and the way you see the world and move through it in some real way, it may not be an enlightening experience.

In Sonya's experience, I do not recall if she said how long ago it was and she has said that she has decided to let her ego play, and do what it does, BUT she recognizes the difference between her "Self" and her "ego." In her writing, I see her recognize it in others, and in herself. Regardless how she chooses to deal with her ego, I can see that she has had a very similar experience, differing in details only. What she is choosing to do about that recognition only says something about her intellectual evaluation of what to do about it. It doesnt take away the fact that she has clearly seen it, and still sees it. Her way of translating it mentally may not stay the same forever. Mine has changed quite a bit from the first couple years following it.

I see that same recognition in v01i0 and others. I think we are having an unprecedented "awakening" now where many are seeing it in the same time frame. So I disagree with the poster that says that there are none here, I have met a few. Everyone seems to be in various stages of the "intellectual knowing" of it, but so what? We are all limited to some degree by our ability to "know" what to do about this realization. I have no real way of knowing that my own mental evaluation of it is "right," I can only say it is "consistent" with the intellectualizing of some that have come before me. And, that the "fruits" or material consequences of that intellectual analysis seem to be making my life flow more smoothly. I could be dead wrong, and everyone that has come before could be dead wrong, and this "smoother" feeling life could be another level of illusion. Who knows? We all just do the best we can do with it.

I am just grateful for the thread because I have had the great good fortune to meet and have contact with some people I am certain are fellow travelers.

I have been turning this over and over.

Originally posted by v01i0
If this experience remains incomplete, this terrible loneliness can drag you down into cynicism and despair - that is the reason why I consider this dangerous in some way. One that is not ready for this realization, shouldn't even approach it, but first strenghten oneself to face 'the reality'.

I am not sure one could have the experience by "trying" to approach it.

For me, there was no approaching of it. It wasnt a conscious decision at all. I wasnt looking for it, and I didnt have any preparation for it. Not having a "centered" or "balanced" nature when it occurred DID leave me with a mess to clean up afterward, but I personally do not think I would have had the experience without the mess. It was the psychological suffering itself that "broke" my Ego's hold over me in that moment. I am grateful for the sufferings large and small because without them, I would not have woken up,

I dont know how it goes for everyone, I would be very interested to hear the circumstances leading up to the experience for those who had had it spontaneously. But I have made a conscious effort to study the "what happened just prior" in as many cases as I could. For instance, I know Eckhart Tolle also attributes the psychological suffering and "giving up" as being the catalyst. I think that is the purpose of Koans and other exercises in the Eastern traditions as well, to get the mind to admit it cannot "know" the answer and give up. It is meant to cause the wheels of the mind to lock up and shut down for a moment. But for me, just my own personal life experiences caused this breakdown of the mental machine.

Not that I totally discount the induced ways, I have not had personal experience of Aya, and I could not say with any certainty that the problem would be with the Aya itself. One thing I feel may actually be more problematic is the "trying" to have the experience. Only the ego "tries" to become enlightened, and of course it cannot. If the enlightenment experience comes as a result of the "death" or temporary cessation of the mental identity, having a mental identity present to pursue this end makes it impossible. The Ego is, as an allegory, the shadow of "you" cast by your incomplete understanding of the Self. If enlightenment is seeing the Self fully, (when the idea of "self" goes silent for whatever reason) what happens is that the "shadow" of the Ego is just not there. Because when the enlightenment experience occurs the "shadow" of the ego vanishes in that moment, the ego itself can never have the experience. It simply cannot be there. Perhaps because the Ego drives the desire to pursue the experience, the whole coin is never flipped in a contrived experience, the Ego stays present, even if greatly diminished, and the total surrender of the "self" never occurs. Maybe Aya or some chemical could act as catalyst for the experience, if the Ego were not so tightly controlling the show. For instance if the ingestion were accidental.

After all, most who "try" to have the experience naturally by meditating, following some guru, sacrificing bulls, whatever, never do. Many traditions allude to the inherent incompatibility of "trying" to attain enlightenment and what actually occurs if one does.

academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu...

Therefore the Master takes action
by letting things take their course.
He remains as calm
at the end as at the beginning.
He has nothing,
thus has nothing to lose.
What he desires is non-desire;
what he learns is to unlearn.
He simply reminds people
of who they have always been.
He cares about nothing but the Tao.
Thus he can care for all things.

And, I also know that many who have been actively on the "search" for enlightenment have found it. I am just curious as to what specifically they experienced just prior to that. Did that "surrender" occur? So far, among those I have been able to speak to, there was some "breakdown" just prior to the experience. Some suffering or huge frustration that caused a giving up of control. Was that not the case for you? If not, I would be greatly interested in hearing the circumstances. It would be most unusual, and very interesting.

Originally posted by Harman

In any case it is something to explore if you have such a feeling, follow your gut to where it may lead.

For your, "what to do about it?" question, really, the answer you give above is the only "real" answer. Open yourself to the idea that if there were a rigid "right" way, you could never know it, and follow the signs without prejudice. Your "gut" or that internal intuitive sense is the only practical guide. Some people may have an answer to part of your question, but that doesnt mean they have the "whole" answer for you. Though they may have their own answer.

If the signs or intuitions lead you to a new age community? So be it. You may find what you need to see there, but what you may need to see is that it isnt there. Go not expecting to see any particular thing, but just open to see what is there.

If you let it, the way will unfold in front of you. The only way to lose the path is to assume you "know" what it will look like. And even then, you havent really lost it, you have only lost "sight" of it because what you are focusing on is the image in your mind rather than the "what is" laid out in front of you.

Another thing, I do not feel there is an "end" or "whole" awakening. At least not while alive. I think all awakenings are "partial," but not "failed." You may "see" the whole, or experience what "wholeness" feels like, but in the body, it seems to me it is a process, an evolution with no "end" in sight. If someone thinks they have "got it" or that they "know the whole thing" I would say an error of judgment has occurred. I do not think it is possible in this form, with this mind, to "get it" in a concrete and solid way that leaves no room for the evolution of understanding. Of course, that said, I could be very wrong.

I think that needing to have the thing locked down and tied up is an indication that the ego is heavily involved. (Not saying that is what you are saying, just in general) Acceptance of uncertainty is one of the most difficult lessons, but it most accurately reflects the "truth" that we can know. There seem to be some "markers" along the path, that can tell you more or less where you stand in the process of evolving, at least in the beginning stages, and the sacred traditions have mapped these up to a point. The process does seem to unfold generally in a way that is pretty similar for many, though the details may vary quite a bit. If you continue on, and do not "think you have got it" and stop, there will come a time when you are in territory not traveled and unmapped, and you (or any of us) will have to wing it.

Your intuition will be just as good a guide there as it is where you stand now.

Send us postcards.

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
I am not sure one could have the experience by "trying" to approach it.

Now reading my post again I understood that I did not make myself quite clear there. Obviously 'approach' was kinda bad choice for wording hehe, but it nevertheless is something I meant, lemme explain:

I've always considered myself as a seeker (even on my teens I was seeking, not consciously tho). In the sense that I consider myself being in search, I used that term 'approach'.

But what I meant by that whole paragraph, is that if you do not complete your 'awakening', you may get seriously depressed (if you are depressing type, otherwise you'll prolly will get frustrated and cynical) because you cannot see the 'oneness' and the purpose (hey! this may sound like a cliche! )behind everything.

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
I am not here to convince them. What would the point of that be? It would first and foremost for me be a violation of Oneness.

This is the most important thing to understand! Kudos for you for bringing it up! Trying to 'convience' someone is converting, and that is breaking the 'do not steal' commandment. Because you convience someone into something - regardless of it's truth value - you steal from 'God', as to say. Also you are insulting the free will of other people.

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
I personally write not to convince the unconvincable, but to clarify concepts for myself [...]

Exactly for the same reason I write. People has often thought that I try to 'convince' them to think in certain manners because my writing style sometimes gets somewhat insulting (hey I am working on this!) if I disagree (I do sincerely apologize for those I've offended). I guess I have lot of pride to work and modest me down

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
I am just grateful for the thread because I have had the great good fortune to meet and have contact with some people I am certain are fellow travelers.

Same here. Sometimes when you are getting down with the world, threads like these can lift you up huge amounts! Thank you all for being here.

Sincerely,

-v

Originally posted by v01i0But what I meant by that whole paragraph, is that if you do not complete your 'awakening', you may get seriously depressed (if you are depressing type, otherwise you'll prolly will get frustrated and cynical) because you cannot see the 'oneness' and the purpose (hey! this may sound like a cliche! )behind everything.

I am trying to be nice and not come from a place of “strong ego” in this reply. Having said that, I think you are really oversimplifying here. It sounds like you are judging others that have experienced darkness after awakening and you are assuming that it must be because they were “not ready for it” or they are “not evolved or intelligent enough to process it properly”.

I experienced what I consider to be an awakening 10 years ago. Yes I have gone though some hard core episodes of depression since then, but I do not think the two are directly tied. I think they are separate issues, I guess my point was that awakening does not necessarily cause a blissful existence. Sure one can say “this is not real, it is all an illusion, there is no reason to be depressed, there is no reason to suffer so greatly” all ya like but that doesn’t help much.

But actually I do not think the two are directly related, so it probably isn’t an issue to be discussed in this thread.



[edit on 9-9-2008 by Sonya610]

reply to post by Harman


sorry harman though i'm not sure what you mean by 'the shoe being dropped'? you dont have to explain if its personal.

i'd encourage anyone to give anything a go. the best answers to your questions dont come from books, forums ect..they come from personal life experiences. i hope that one day you do as you wish though just stay level headed and you'll be fine

reply to post by v01i0


in no way am i an expert on enlightment and who does/dosent reach it

i have read alot of spiritual texts though and beleive that the factual meaning of enlightment can only be reached by people who have lived, eaten and breathed spirituality over their lifetimes. there are also others though i will be here for ages explaining.

reply to post by Sonya610

Originally posted by Sonya610
I think you are really oversimplifying here. It sounds like you are judging others that have experienced darkness after awakening and you are assuming that it must be because they were “not ready for it” or they are “not evolved or intelligent enough to process it properly”.

I am afraid that you misunderstood me - but alas it is not a surprise since I do write in very confusing way sometimes, it's mostly because I am not native english speaker and had poor grades every english grammar test

Anyway, what I meant has nothing to do with intellectuality or development of a person. What I meant (I try to be more clear) is that if one is awaken indeed, meaning that one is quite capable of 'judge' the events around him / her (I really hate all the languages which make distinction between sexes by default!) by one's own thinking, but if one then decides or other way not to comprehend that everything in world happens for a reason (not purpose necessarily), and refuses to see the ultimate will beyond every event and everything, one can easily succumb into despair (note that I use words 'can' and 'may' quite often, therefore not expicitly stating that it is always so).

OK, thank you for not jumping on me with heavy judgement, I know it was best for both of us

reply to post by enlighten2012

Originally posted by enlighten2012
reply to post by Harman

 

[T]he best answers to your questions dont come from books, forums ect..they come from personal life experiences. i hope that one day you do as you wish though just stay level headed and you'll be fine

Originally posted by enlighten2012
i have read alot of spiritual texts though and beleive that the factual meaning of enlightment can only be reached by people who have lived, eaten and breathed spirituality over their lifetimes. there are also others though i will be here for ages explaining.

Yes, live on and learn Agreed!

All the best,

-v

Originally posted by enlighten2012

sorry harman though i'm not sure what you mean by 'the shoe being dropped'? you dont have to explain if its personal.

Nothing personal, the shoe i'm expecting to drop is related to 2012 and what i suspect will happen in that time to keep us 'plebs' in the dark about it. Pretty much some Shock and Awe campaign bigger then we have ever seen before just to keep the fear/hate up and going inside of us.

But you are right, nothing beats a real life experience. But on the other hand; i'm alive already and experiencing stuff every day.

This is pretty much the reason i made this topic, to get some assistance making my choice, so thanks again.