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False/half awakenings (spiritually speaking), getting through it.

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posted on Sep, 2 2008 @ 03:18 PM
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Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
how about if we use the word advanced in place of superior?


That's fine by me. I will use Advanced.

I just don't have a problem with believing there are - beings - worlds - dimensions - spiritual realms - far superior (advanced) then this one.

There are also lower worlds.

I would ask myself - if the word superior bothers me - why?




posted on Sep, 2 2008 @ 04:00 PM
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Good evening ladies and gents.

I've been looking forward to logging on to see how the thread is progressing today, but have to say I'm a bit disappointed. It seems that some are now intent on thrilling us with their wisdom distilled from a hundred books, and arrogant assertions based on nowt much more than a beetle's fart!

Annee, please climb down from your tower and join us at the pub for a pint. Inferring you know all about re-incarnated initiates is rather boring and makes you look a bit silly in this stimulating debate where people are daring to disclose their real life experiences.

To someone else I can't remember who: Assertions of 'you are right' or 'you are wrong' when discussing life after death are really quite ridiculous and immensely arrogant, unless of course you are a dead person who came back to life to share your experience here on ATS, and if so, please share the experience, not somebody else's theory you read about.

I'm gonna assert that this thread has attracted some individuals who've actually 'got the T-Shirt' when it comes to this kind of stuff, so the 'theory boys and girls' would be better asking questions than strutting their immature little egos. Yes, I can do arrogance as well as the next.

Sonya, you go girl. Smoke, drink, be merry. If you let go of the fear of death (wish I could) then you're probably already 200 mental pounds lighter than the rest of us. Funny, I always used to tell people I didn't fear death, till I got a bit of a taste of it, you know, the actual moment when you start to dissolve from 3D - then the truth was there in my underpants! My hat off to you.

Illusions - always love your posts and your replies even more. Even if I tend to skim a bit, as you gotta admit they do go on a bit at times


A question for the astral travellers and those of you that have experience of death/the light/enlightenment whatever you'd like to call it: Have you been up the tube, can you do it at will, and if you are conscious of it on the way up, does it bend to the left or the right? And of course, what happens when you get to the other end



posted on Sep, 2 2008 @ 04:31 PM
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Originally posted by v01i0
Enlightened to me means somebody that has the gnosis, i.e knowledge. It can be very broad spectrum of knowledge or rather thin, specialized into some certain field of knowledge (for example, think of doctor that makes a breakthru in understanding some specific deficit), form of this type of 'englightment' of course is limited; the broad type 'enlightment' I'd connect to the people like Buddha, Swedenborg, Plato, Pythagoras, Schopenhauer and other great thinkers of past and contemporary.


Ah, I see, ( I think
) what you are saying. I like the term gnosis, (I degreed in philosophy and specialized in Plato so I am comfortable there) but I do not define it as "knowledge" in the exact same way we moderns use the term. (You may not either, the term knowledge is tricky in English when compared to ancient Greek, which was much more nuanced)

I feel that "gnosis" is not a collection of facts, bit of data, but more what Spinoza was talking about when he said "intuitive knowing." Some might call it "clairsentience." A sudden rush of insight that fills the mind of the "questioner" with a "knowing" that is more than should be expected of the mind. Knowing the "form" Plato might say. Intelligence in the moment, rather than "I know" in a closed door fashion.

In a sense, since you seem familiar with Plato, I would say that the stages are like his cave analogy. First, you notice while in the cave, that the shadows are not the things themselves, and you begin to move against the bonds that chain you to the cave. (Fitful sleep stage) Then you walk out of the cave and see the Sun which illuminates all things, (enlightenment) and then, you return to the cave, now knowing the sun, and being surrounded by those who still think the shadows are the real thing, but having to return nonetheless. (Lucid dreaming) You never forget the Sun, but while you are in the cave, dealing with those in bondage, you cannot ignore the shadows, or you cannot talk to those around you at all. They cannot speak of the "Sun" because of the fact that language itself requires shared understanding. It is very difficult to use language to "give" someone an idea of something they havent ever experienced. So we use analogy, "like this" "sort of like that" "no, I meant this part of this or that" and slowly try to work towards a meeting of minds. You play the hand you are dealt, but you play it knowing the shadows are just shadows and the real thing is something else entirely.




Originally posted by v01i0
I think that Jung explained the reason why the images and experience of mystical nature seem alike and same to different people; he called them archetypes, basically indoctrinated forms of conception of thousand years, most likely stored in the human form (here referring to Platinian form theory). These archetypes are old 'wise' men, blind women, eagles, trees, giants and so on. They can be found in most esoteric and alchemical writings.


Here, I am going to disagree a little. For me, and it seems in many descriptions, there are no archetypes in the experience itself. Like in Sonya's description, nothing changes. There is really no "image" (although there can be visual experience with the experience itself, both a heightened distinctness combined oddly enough with connectedness) it is something outside of the 5 senses. You may be filled with an understanding that your mind interprets as a voice, ( in mine, there was a "voice" aspect) but it isnt really a voice, it is an understanding that fills your mind without a voice. The "thing in itself" is totally experiential. It is a "sense" or "understanding" or being able to "see" the interconnectedness, or feel it, but not really in the same way we see or feel or sense other things. It is an overwhelming understanding that that is the case that allows no room for doubt. It is as plain as seeing the Sun. While the sun is shining, there is no "shadow" of misunderstanding.

If one uses an archetype or image to describe it to another, it is only because we must. It isnt the Sun, for instance, it illuminates and drives away shadows like the Sun does. It shares some attributes with it, but it is more than that. One neednt call it "God," or "The Oneness" one could just as easily call it the "universal consciousness" or some other very broad and all encompassing awareness that contained all things. We have to, when we use words, try to discern what means what to the one to whom we are speaking and choose terms to convey our thoughts accordingly. The problem is, there are no designated actual words for the experience itself that can convey a direct knowing from one to another. Because the experience is NOT of the five senses, and is NOT shared by every individual, there can be no verbal and intellectual agreement. If one has had the experience, one can see it in almost any description of it. Plato? I see it. Jesus? I see it. Buddha? I see it. Sonya? I see it. (And many more) Because you have both seen a "cat" no matter what descriptives another may use, and overlooking cultural differences, language differences, an understanding can be shared, eventually, that you both mean "cat." Archetypes are used sometimes to describe because they do have meaning to most of us, but they are not present in the experience itself.



Originally posted by v01i0
Allright, I just recalled what I was about to say earlier about this 'lucid dreaming' concept of being enlightment. I cannot view it quite such way, because for me enlightened person is capable of changing his ideas and conceptions consciously. As I undertood, you are saying that one returns to the slumber after enligthment, and his behaviour is according to the enlightment?


I think I must have phrased it badly. Lets run with the cave and see if it goes better. If you come out of the cave, and see the sun, there is the possibility that you stay there, and do not return to the cave at all. But, that doesnt seem to be what happens. You seem to return to the cave. (Re-enter the dream) BUT, the image of the sun, and the knowledge that shadows are just shadows, less real than the trees themself or the sun that illuminates all are with you. You are aware, you can change your behavior and your thinking and ideas. You are lucid or aware in the dream or cave. You realize that your essence is the Sun, but you also are still holding the shadow of the Ego. It is your body, your mind, it doesnt vanish. You have to figure out a way to reconcile the two. How to identify with the illumination not the shadow while using the shadow to negotiate the cave.

When I said some return completely to the dream and are non lucid, these would be like people that saw the Sun, came back to the cave, and forgot that they, also, were shadows, and in the cave announced "I am the Sun!" It is the shadow saying it is the Sun. The ego has grasped the concept of "Sun" and instead of seeing, "My consciousness itself is the sun, this part of me that is thinking is the shadow." It says, "This part of me that is thinking is the sun." It knows the Sun, but it has confused its "self" or identity as an individual with the "sun" which is the essence of all and belongs to no individual specifically.



Originally posted by v01i0
Of course, I neither think it's all or nothing, for enlightened can fall again back into the "darkness", there are examples of it. These types fits your conception of 'falling back asleep' better IMO.

In the end, I am not saying that your conception would be correct or false, I am merely making my own more clear.


I agree. I actually think that in this regard we are discussing the same concept. I just think that my words work less well for you than your words work for me.



posted on Sep, 2 2008 @ 04:37 PM
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Originally posted by RogerT

Annee, please climb down from your tower and join us at the pub for a pint. Inferring you know all about re-incarnated initiates is rather boring and makes you look a bit silly in this stimulating debate where people are daring to disclose their real life experiences.



As you wish. I can't contribute to read material because I don't read any. What I say is kind of channeled - only way I can describe it.

My experiences began at birth - I was astral traveling in my earliest memories. I've had out of body experiences as long as I can remember - as well as other experiences.

Its all yours.



posted on Sep, 2 2008 @ 04:44 PM
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Originally posted by RogerT
Good evening ladies and gents.

Illusions - always love your posts and your replies even more. Even if I tend to skim a bit, as you gotta admit they do go on a bit at times




Lol. Yes they do. Its that damn analysis and philosophy. If you get the point without the Russian novel skim away.


BTW, in regard to your post on '___', I think (but have not googled it yet) that you are referring to a plant that induces this type of experience? I have heard of it, but havent read much about it yet.

I dont think one needs to have repeated experience of "enlightenment" in a practical way. (I dont think it adds anything) But in a scientific way, I would be fascinated to have them do a study using people who had already had the experience on their own to see if they reported the two as being identical, or if they were just similar.

I read a study someone did trying to induce the enlightenment experience in people who had NOT had it, using various means, and I dont recall them using that one, but the descriptions of the test subjects didnt quite hit the note for me. (Which means little, language is so difficult for describing "enlightenment.") I think it was close but no cigar. I would be really curious to see (if what you are talking about is what I think it is,) if the results would be better/different.

Because language is so piss poor at conveying the experience, it is difficult to tell based on comparisons of one persons description of the "natural" vs anothers description of the "induced." I think it would be interesting to see if someone who had both agreed it was the same. Of course you run the risk of the "natural" experience coloring the induced one, but I still would be interested to hear the result.



posted on Sep, 2 2008 @ 05:00 PM
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Originally posted by RogerT
If you let go of the fear of death (wish I could) then you're probably already 200 mental pounds lighter than the rest of us. Funny, I always used to tell people I didn't fear death, till I got a bit of a taste of it, you know, the actual moment when you start to dissolve from 3D - then the truth was there in my underpants! My hat off to you.


Oh just because I don’t fear death, it doesn’t mean I don’t stress out over other stuff! Actually I live each day and reflect on the fact that this is temporary, and look forward to when it is over. I really do because I don’t get any thrill from being here anymore. Though the technicalities involved with death for those of us with dependents, in my case too many animals, create a different stress factor. Yeah I may intellectually know “its all god, its all good” but the maternal instinct to worry about what would happen to them is still intense.

So despite all, my life is still stressful. I think its hormonal or some chemical thing. I KNOW I should not be worried about petty things, but yet I frequently become stressed and fearful about day to day worries, workstuff, financial stuff, household stuff, etc… I may have the big things covered but the little things are a whole other issue. LOL.



posted on Sep, 2 2008 @ 05:01 PM
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to Illusions:

Suggest you get a copy of Rick Strassman's book on '___' called 'the spirit molecule'.

As we can't discuss taking drugs on ATS, not much I can share unfortunately. '___' exists in many plants and also naturally in humans too. Ayahuasca is a native brew made from 2 plants, one to provide the '___', the other to suppress the MAO production in the stomach so that the '___' can enter the blood and be carried to the brain (pineal it seems).

I've done a bunch of crazy stuff in the chase for enlightenment, as I've hinted at with some posts, but the 'University of Aya' is far and beyond anything else I experienced, and if you like your self knowledge on the hurry up, then it's definitely the way to go.

With regards to the value of 're-experiencing', well that comes down to the onion analogy. Each time, a new layer gets peeled off. Old beliefs and ideas fall away, only to be recreated at a later date by the ego


One of the reasons I rail against the intellectual discussion of 'mysticism' is down to Aya. One cup of the murky brown gunk and I know I'll be sobbing in the grass, begging for forgiveness for being such an arrogant and pompous ass.

Ever been up the n.d. tube?

[edit on 2/9/08 by RogerT]



posted on Sep, 2 2008 @ 05:04 PM
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reply to post by Sonya610
 


Ha, I can relate to that.

Sometimes I feel that I'm just 'waitin to die'
but not in a morose way.

I find it helps to engage in some kind of project that I can at least pretend is important to me. Just now I am in the final stages of building my home, it's kept me busy for nearly 3 years and the bricks and mortar of it kept my head out of the clouds



posted on Sep, 2 2008 @ 05:09 PM
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Originally posted by RogerT

A question for the astral travellers and those of you that have experience of death/the light/enlightenment whatever you'd like to call it: Have you been up the tube, can you do it at will, and if you are conscious of it on the way up, does it bend to the left or the right? And of course, what happens when you get to the other end




Ok, I will try this, and briefly, (which is an accomplishment);

For me, there was no tube.

What precipitated it was the opposite of "will," and I have not had that level of experience more than the once, though it echos.

I was conscious the entire experience, but it felt out of "time" as I know it.

There were no bends, it was for me an instantaneous "flip" the second I let of of my will.

I was "All that Is." I was aware of my own, 'personal' identity in the mix, and all other "individual" identities as well, but the overriding sense of identification was with the All that Is. I was both Everything, and all individual things at the exact same time with no need to focus specifically on one or the other the way we must in our normal minds. "Duality" had no meaning. Life/Death, Me/You, Now/Then were meaningless.



posted on Sep, 2 2008 @ 05:26 PM
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Thanks for sharing, really sounds like a pineal '___' blast.

The tube I'm referring to is of course the 'near death tube' that has become quite famous over the years. You'll like this cos it's one of those 'constants' that everyone seems to describe in a similar fashion, even if there experiences around it and/or interpretations are many and varied

Try this, I'm sure you'll see it.

Make the room dark, lie/sit, relax, close your eyes and peer into the darkness (if you can make the room absolutely black, you can keep eyes open, makes no difference).

At first you'll see the swirly clouds of violet, then maybe the 'flashy faces' and/or a bunch of other stuff, but soon enough you should see the entrance to the tube right there in front of you, like it's been there all along. To go up it, you need to pull the far end towards you rather than trying to move forwards. When you get to the bend, your almost at the end. If you get out the top, then buckle your seatbelts dorothy ...

Let us know where you end up and what you see and maybe who or what you meet.

PS. if you get spooked, center on your heart and gently blow love at whatever spooked you. if that doesn't work, threaten to smash em in the nuts if they don't back off. The former seems to work best but a back up plan is handy


ciao for now

[edit on 2/9/08 by RogerT]

[edit on 2/9/08 by RogerT]



posted on Sep, 2 2008 @ 05:28 PM
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Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
how about if we use the word advanced in place of superior?


That's fine by me. I will use Advanced.

I just don't have a problem with believing there are - beings - worlds - dimensions - spiritual realms - far superior (advanced) then this one.

There are also lower worlds.

I would ask myself - if the word superior bothers me - why?



I have no problem with the concept - or the word

it's just a word - and words being what they are sometimes - clumsy tools - they don't always hit the mark

or they find a target they weren't intended for



posted on Sep, 2 2008 @ 05:34 PM
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Originally posted by Annee
As you wish. I can't contribute to read material because I don't read any. What I say is kind of channeled - only way I can describe it.

My experiences began at birth - I was astral traveling in my earliest memories. I've had out of body experiences as long as I can remember - as well as other experiences.



OK, smashing.

Tell us about some of your travels.



posted on Sep, 2 2008 @ 05:40 PM
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Originally posted by RogerT
reply to post by Sonya610
 


Sometimes I feel that I'm just 'waitin to die'
but not in a morose way.

I find it helps to engage in some kind of project that I can at least pretend is important to me.


I totally get that

just waiting to die :-)

also - not in a morose way

I'd be a complete idiot to say I'm not afraid of dying

but I'm really not, so...there you go

just trying to fill my time with something constructive - and be useful as much as it's possible for me to be



posted on Sep, 2 2008 @ 05:48 PM
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Originally posted by RogerT
Make the room dark, lie/sit, relax, close your eyes and peer into the darkness (if you can make the room absolutely black, you can keep eyes open, makes no difference).


You are saying to try this without mind altering drugs? Just sit in a black room and try this? Reminds me of the dark room and the mirror stories, seeing ghosts and what not.

Hmmm...not sure I want to try that. The dark is scary. I always assume there are other beings/dimensions and I make it a point not to see them, and ask that they stay hidden from me. : )



posted on Sep, 2 2008 @ 06:17 PM
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Originally posted by RogerT

With regards to the value of 're-experiencing', well that comes down to the onion analogy. Each time, a new layer gets peeled off. Old beliefs and ideas fall away, only to be recreated at a later date by the ego


[edit on 2/9/08 by RogerT]



I know the onion too. How it has played out for me is that since the experience, "life" or my circumstances have been arranging themselves in such a way that I have to peel off the layers of "fear" or "desire" or clinging consciously in my normal day to day life. Once peeled, that "level" of experience doesnt actually return, the next layer of the onion is more subtle, a little less obvious, but generally speaking, it is the same thing, fear, desire or clinging (resistance to change).

So far for me, the technique used to dispel the fears, desires, resistance to change is similar to what you described, but less dualistic. Lol. No "love" as we commonly think of love as a positive, nor any aggression, but rather simply to watch it. Accept that it is there, in a dispassionate way.

When I first started the onion, I was stymied at "what do I do" because it was so clear that only the ego "tries" to get rid of the ego. Only the ego can "love" as a positive emotion, the ego as well. I was "told" (the understanding pervaded me,) that "seeing the problem is the solution." Just being aware of the ego issue, non judgmentally, was the antidote to fear, desire, clinging. Acceptance, as I was made to understand, is unconditional love. It doesnt seem that way to us, because we are conditioned to think "love" must feel positive, but we can actually "unconditionally love" that which we dislike, fear, etc., simply by being aware of it without resistance.

Easier said than done, in the moment sometimes. Like Sonya, the whole death of myself thing is not the problem. In a sense, in that experience I did die. So that doesnt bother me. I would still feel sad, and attached to the things and people and pets I care for, but the loss of "me" would be no loss. I agree that the harder task is the letting go of those I feel called to protect, care for, etc. I also understand the whole "it really isnt what it looks like" portion of it, and that it is all good, but I think while we are here we have to experience it. Do it. I just let go of something I had loved and cared for for a very long time, and I dreaded it, I resisted it, I was unhappy about it, but I went through it anyway, and just accepted it, and, like always, the fear was all in the future. In the moment it occurred there was no trauma, no pain. It just was. Every time I move through the process of "letting go" it gets easier. The struggle leading up to it gets less painful. When sudden events hit that give me no warning, I find my feet faster. Sometimes I dont stumble at all any more, I just roll with it automatically. Not always though. Sometimes you hit a layer of the onion that is a bit harder to deal with, a deeper part of your attachment.

For me, that is the important part of the whole thing. Not the experience itself, but how it changes the way I experience the world. Everything feels better. Less scary. Less dramatic. More even. Some of the truly high highs are gone, I dont feel those really wound up "I just have to have..." feelings anymore, but I dont miss them. I also dont have those "Oh my god this cannot happen..." feelings anymore. I am happier with "nothing" than I ever was with any "something" I ever possessed. (Not that I have nothing, lol I own stuff, I just dont care much about it anymore, if I lost it, oh well, I would deal with it and move on.)

If I had to wait until another enlightenment experience for more "peeling," I would say the whole thing was useless, pointless. (For me) What I have found is the experience echos in my day to day life, in the very most average and common things, I find that same opportunity to "let go of my will" that kicked over the extraordinary experience. The results are less spectacular in the day to day surrender, but they accumulate over time and overall they are the more satisfying experience.



posted on Sep, 2 2008 @ 07:05 PM
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Originally posted by Annee

My experiences began at birth - I was astral traveling in my earliest memories. I've had out of body experiences as long as I can remember - as well as other experiences.



I think we see things in a very different way, Annee, but I would actually really like to hear your view of what enlightenment or the enlightenment experience is.

Technically speaking, (and we all know I love to do that) the fact that your way is so different from what I and some others have experienced means nothing in regard to which way is "right." We could just be seeing the same thing from another angle, it could be that we are seeing different levels of the same thing, it could be that there is no difference at all, but we use very different words, (though I doubt that in this case,
)

Or it could mean that we are seeing completely different things. For all I know, what I experienced could very well be some sort of a hallucination. It seems to be a fairly popular one, if it is, but since all humans stem from the same stock, there is always the possibility that our fundamental "wiring" in our brains leaves us open to a very similar, (but objectively "false") experience of "enlightenment." That is certainly what science argues, and I cannot by any stretch prove them wrong, (though I do not feel that is the case.)

So, please do tell us what you have seen. I am curious. One cannot do a good study if one only looks at the data that supports one's own hypothesis, and I am interested in the phenomenon as a whole, not just my own piece of it.

I would love to hear you take on it.



posted on Sep, 2 2008 @ 07:14 PM
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Separate question to the readers at large,

Has anyone ever considered that maybe the "enlightenment experience" rather than being a reward for merit, or something awarded the "advanced" souls, is actually sort of a "study hall" for the spirits, souls, etc., that have strayed pretty far from the way they were meant to live?

Rather than being something "good" in the sense that you earn it with good behavior, it may actually be like a "cheat sheet" given to the really poor students?

I am not saying it is, I am just considering it opposite from the way the mainstream religions do.



posted on Sep, 2 2008 @ 07:23 PM
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Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
Rather than being something "good" in the sense that you earn it with good behavior, it may actually be like a "cheat sheet" given to the really poor students?
I am not saying it is, I am just considering it opposite from the way the mainstream religions do.


Oh come on I don't think we are THAT bad! Sheesh if it were only for "bad students" then San Quentin would be a spiritual mecca turning out wave after wave of enlightened masters! lol.

[edit on 2-9-2008 by Sonya610]



posted on Sep, 2 2008 @ 07:59 PM
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Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
Has anyone ever considered that maybe the "enlightenment experience" rather than being a reward for merit, or something awarded the "advanced" souls, is actually sort of a "study hall" for the spirits, souls, etc., that have strayed pretty far from the way they were meant to live?


I've been impressed with the channelings from Karen Cook at Benutoo.com. She "supposedly" does a full soul replacement channel of Archangel Gabriel. Your mileage may very, however I believe it is the real deal.

Anyway, according to one of his/her channelings, Gabriel said that what we have "now" was an experiment, some 27 million years ago or so, so see what it would be like to live with only 10% of our Spiritual Gifts. The "test" was only supposed to last for THREE days... Obviously, somebody forgot to turn the switch back on, the Dark ETs arrived, and everything else is history.

In the past the "Enlightened Experience" was few and far between. However, based on teachings by Cook/Gabriel, and others, the Earth has pretty much had it with the "experiment" and has been granted the right to Ascension. The Earth would prefer to have some souls on board at that time, so God has granted a (man, I love these words) "Special Dispensation" so that those souls who are "nearly" or "almost" enlightened, and wish to, Ascend can Ascend with Mother Earth around 2012 +/- or shortly thereafter. "Normally" it might take 2,000 or more years for those souls to qualify for Ascension.

As always, believe what you want....



posted on Sep, 2 2008 @ 08:04 PM
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Originally posted by Sonya610
Sheesh if it were only for "bad students" then San Quentin would be a spiritual mecca turning out wave after wave of enlightened masters! lol.

[edit on 2-9-2008 by Sonya610]


Well, there DO seem to be a lot of people who suddenly find God after a conviction.


No, I dont really mean "bad" people, ( in a judgmental sort of way) but what if it is just for those who need it, and wouldnt get the point any other way?

I was just thinking that in my life, I have met quite a few very simple, not well read people, not particularly religious people, who lead extraordinary lives. They seem to have the benefits of enlightenment, the grace, the peace, the acceptance and understanding, without ever having had the experience itself. While like Roger points out, some Shamans who apparently have the experience regularly, (or other "enlightened" folk) dont seem to be getting much out of it. After all, if the experience itself were such a big deal, it would seem incredibly unfair, since such a small percentage seem to have it. Perhaps it is just a "what you need" issue, rather than anything else?

I am not saying it is for certain, but there is always that possibility.



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