False/half awakenings (spiritually speaking), getting through it.

Originally posted by awakened sleeper
KNOW THYSELF, AND YOU'LL KNOW THE UNIVERSE...

...AND ALL THE GODS.

Sorry for that phrasefilling, but it is now just as the orginal phrase used to be in temple of Delfoi.

This is interesting thread, thanks for bringing it up Harman! I've produced already few thoughts, but I haven't yet read every reply and post in this thread, so sorry if I am repeating what has been already said:

IMO, the awakening is one thing, acquiring wisdom(enlightment) is another. Awakening is important, because it is the feeling that you don't know everything and you become critic towards the knowledge you have been fed so far. I bet many people on ATS are indeed awakened ones; but those enlightened are rare. I suspect however, that there are few (hopefully!).

With awakening comes enlightment, but due the long road. Do not despair, but stay on the path and please, do not stray (or press the snooze I guess - according to Harman's terminology) or you have to climb that cliff again. I guess awakened people can be called 'initiates' by some terminology: Awakened peeps seeks alternative explanations instead of the mainstream ones that does not explain their subjective experiences. But of course, there is real danger that you awake from a sleep to another dream. Be careful and do not believe what is said to you, only follow your experiences and own empirical research. No real Guru or Teacher will ever tell you how or what you should believe; the task of teacher is always prepare one to the path of knowledge. I know this is hard task, as one could easily ask: "how can I possibly experience everything?".

But again, do not despair. Humans have an illusion of knowledge and part of it is called 'thinking'. But there is a way to gain knowledge without thinking, and that is what someone's call intuition. The more objective you are, the more true are your intuitions. If you are very subjective person with lot of lusts and deeds within you, your intuitions are quite likely false.

I feel like I've said enough for now. All the best.

Sincerely,

-v

[edit on 2-9-2008 by v01i0]

reply to post by Karlhungis


and - I need to add - my diatribe wasn't aimed at you

it just that what you said earlier really struck me - because I can see - you are there

I find it comforting that you're still questioning

reply to post by Spiramirabilis


Nice one. It certainly should not turn into a 'my awakening is bigger than yours' discussion because; who cares? . Everyone lifes their lives on a unique way and that is the whole point! It's not like in the videogames that people can compare highscores or something. A person that knows reiki, transcendental meditation, quantum touch and has a oneness blessing daily on 5 o'clock is no better than some Joe on the street, he just spent more money on the whole thing and it doesn't say anything about the person having it.

Originally posted by TheGreySwordsman
reply to post by Harman

 

My opinion of synchronisities is that instead of certain people being chosen, and pushed in a specific direction, everyone is being pushed, but it's a matter of recognizing the call, and then answering it...

I find the whole Universe communicates with us all the time...

I like that - I see it in a similar way - none of us is separate form the sea

none above - none below

I like your examples on the LOA too - pretty rational take on a potentially irrational subject

reply to post by Harman


:-)

I would just hate to see a really great discussion be degraded - and turn into a brawl

thanks

Originally posted by Annee
Is this response showing your ego?
It's interesting how ego works both sides of the fence.

"If You Meet the Buddha on the Road, Kill Him" -- Lin Chi

It’s a quote from ninth-century Zen Master, Lin Chi, a warning to rely only upon the self and not to trust external forces as “authority figures” who wish to dictate one’s life or even simply to imply a certain way that one must be, and Lin Chi would warn not even to rely upon his words I just cited, but to reflect upon one’s own self as one’s guide. The only guru one can trust to control one’s life is the guru within, the self.

michaelhovey.wordpress.com...

[edit on 2-9-2008 by Sonya610]

reply to post by Sonya610


very nice

:-)

kill the Buddha...

Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.

Buddha

thinkexist.com...

[edit on 9/2/2008 by Spiramirabilis]

I had let Fear influence me into many belief systems, most of which I am not proud of, and all of which I now dismantle and embrace. It took an OOBE to jolt me out of the depression and into reality. In one moment I was aware that there is life after death, and that we are more than the physical. This blew all of my belief systems wide open- like a shotgun blast into a cube of cheese. I no longer look externally for answers, but within.

So what am I getting at? Yes, the alien presence on earth is discomforting, along with the lies, illusion, influence (FEAR- the nastiest of them all), but we should look at the beauty of the world, the universe, instead. By living in fear we only add to their agendas, mind games, manipulation and insults. Let us not feed them, but let us embrace them.

Originally posted by Sonya610

Originally posted by Annee
Is this response showing your ego?
It's interesting how ego works both sides of the fence.

If You Meet the Buddha on the Road, Kill Him

It’s a quote from ninth-century Zen Master, Lin Chi, a warning to rely only upon the self and not to trust external forces as “authority figures” who wish to dictate one’s life or even simply to imply a certain way that one must be, and Lin Chi would warn not even to rely upon his words I just cited, but to reflect upon one’s own self as one’s guide. Alexander Pope wrote, “Know then thyself. Presume not god to scan. The proper study of mankind is Man.” The only guru one can trust to control one’s life is the guru within, the self.

To deny there are those more intelligent - more educated - more enlightened then myself would be a lie - and my own Ego being bruised.

As said - Ego works both sides of the fence.

I said nothing about "authority figures" - - I said one who re-incarnates from a higher plain must keep their superiority in check.

Simple fact - if you come from a higher education/intelligence level - you are superior in that knowledge. Sharing this knowledge is the greater gift - bringing the un-knowledged to a higher level of understanding.

This quote however is correct: "The only guru one can trust to control one’s life is the guru within, the self." It's a buyer beware of the cosmic world.

Originally posted by Annee

To deny there are those more intelligent - more educated - more enlightened then myself would be a lie - and my own Ego being bruised.

As said - Ego works both sides of the fence.

I said nothing about "authority figures" - - I said one who re-incarnates from a higher plain must keep their superiority in check.

Simple fact - if you come from a higher education/intelligence level - you are superior in that knowledge. Sharing this knowledge is the greater gift - bringing the un-knowledged to a higher level of understanding.

This quote however is correct: "The only guru one can trust to control one’s life is the guru within, the self." It's a buyer beware of the cosmic world.

how about if we all agree that language is a cumbersome pain in the ass sometimes - and it would be much easier if we could just think at each other

at least I think that would be easier :-)

how about if we use the word advanced in place of superior?

Originally posted by Sonya610

"If You Meet the Buddha on the Road, Kill Him" -- Lin Chi

It’s a quote from ninth-century Zen Master, Lin Chi, a warning to rely only upon the self and not to trust external forces as “authority figures” who wish to dictate one’s life or even simply to imply a certain way that one must be, and Lin Chi would warn not even to rely upon his words I just cited, but to reflect upon one’s own self as one’s guide. The only guru one can trust to control one’s life is the guru within, the self.

Very true, indeed.

Originally posted by awakened sleeper
I had let Fear influence me into many belief systems... I no longer look externally for answers, but within.

So what am I getting at? Yes, the alien presence on earth is discomforting, along with the lies, illusion, influence (FEAR- the nastiest of them all), but we should look at the beauty of the world, the universe, instead. By living in fear we only add to their agendas, mind games, manipulation and insults. Let us not feed them, but let us embrace them.

fear - fear can make it impossible for you to know when you should really be afraid

I understand

my brain has been toying with the many possibilities in life - and the hereafter - for all my life

saw a UFO a few years ago - and everything came into focus pretty fast

doesn't mean I know anything - just means - it made my thinking much more precise - but in a way more general at the same time

since I have no real evidence to explain what I saw one way or another - it forced me to start thinking in a way I never had before - and that I had to consider the possibility of everything and anything as being real

I really do understand

as far as the alien presence - if it actually exists (reference the thousands of existing threads on this topic - the jury's still out)

all I can say is - don't freak out 'til you have to :-)

may not be such a bad thing

look at how much the presence - whether it's for real or not - has influenced the way people think - the way they see the world - the way they even just look at the world

the sightings alone are responsible for the shift in many peoples perception of reality

I'm beginning to wonder if that isn't their entire purpose - in a nutshell

Originally posted by awakened sleeper
In one moment I was aware that there is life after death, and that we are more than the physical.

I'm glad that you've come into this conclusion. If only more people would understand this, they would perhaps lead better life and be less afraid of dying.

However, it is little misleading to say that there is life after death; I'd certainly use more likely the expression that "Spirit continues to exist after the physical death.". The spirit (IMHO) is the eternal part of us, our soul is the abode of the spirit -- which is the most holiest. Our physical body is our temple and temples can always be demolished and rebuild, but the eternal part, which is spirit, always remains.

Arthur Schopenhauer put it nicely, I will try to explain it by my own words cuz I don't have the book available in english right now:

What is the fear of death? It is merely an illusion, based on a false assumption that life is our only moment to enjoy this existence. But as said, this is an false assumption. We must now refer to Plato's theory of forms to make this understandable:

We inherit many of our qualities and properties from the idea of human - if you are programmer, you could imagine it as the class. So we inherit from our parents and ancestors, which all have herited from the form of human; that is a general class that defines human. Our spirit is here, it is not the instance of individual human being. Therefore I may die, but my form will never die. My body dies, the binding will leaves the organs and it starts to decompose - But the materia in my body does not cease to exist, but it continues in the circle of life - it will stay in motion and also according to the laws of physics, materia never disappears, it merely changes a form; part of my former body may be a part of a plant few years after my decompostum.

So, after some mindbending thoughtwork some thinkers have come to conclusion that we are eternal beings. I must adapt into this conception.

Sincerely,

-v

[edit on 2-9-2008 by v01i0]

reply to post by Spiramirabilis

Thank you for your reply.

I am attempting to stray from the alien topic as much as I can on this thread, for any one part will keep me past Saturnalia. I will say only this, "If you search for answers, they will eventually come, and you may not like that which you find."

reply to post by Sonya610


Agreed. It was shown to me like this. It is a little poetic, lol, and the use of the words "the Gods" is allegorical.

There have been so many great souls. The Gods have blessed us with so many great voices that have given us words of wisdom and love. I have often been puzzled why with so much wisdom available, humanity still seems so lost.

So, as I often do, I asked "Why?" I asked the Gods why it is that even with such an abundance of direction we so often lose our way. In answer, I was given a dream.

In the dream, I was looking at a mountain at night. Covered in darkness, except that there were small points of light here, there and everywhere. All of these lights, from the bottom to the top were moving.

Then I "Knew" why we get so lost. Like being on a mountain at night, it is pointless to call out explicit directions to someone moving below you. You cannot see where they are, nor do you know where on the mountain they began. You cannot see their path, nor even the steps that they should take to move up towards you.

At best, you could call out to them how YOU got to the place you are. But if they followed your directions explicitly, and were not in the right place, exactly where you were when you took those steps, those directions could send them plummeting off a cliff. Or onto a ledge where they might be stuck.

The only thing left then, is to SHINE. Shine as brightly as you can, while moving towards the summit on your own, following the light of those ahead of you. Those below can then use YOUR light as a beacon as they pick their own way along the treacherous pathway. Each of us has to find our own handholds, and place our own feet. If we fall, we must find within our Self the determination to begin the journey again. But the lights moving above can give us the sense of the possible. They can give us a direction to move in, something to move towards. But that is all anyone can be, a light in the darkness. No one can tell you in detail where to place your hands, your feet, nor give you the strength to climb.

So climb. Look to the bright lights ahead of you, but look knowing the path is yours and yours alone. Dont shout to those below with too much detail, their path is also theirs and theirs alone. Just shine.

Originally posted by v01i0
I'm glad that you've come into this conclusion. If only more people would understand this, they would perhaps lead better life and be less afraid of dying.

However, it is little misleading to say that there is life after death; I'd certainly use more likely the expression that "Spirit continues to exist after the physical death.". The spirit (IMHO) is the eternal part of us, our soul is the abode of the spirit -- which is the most holiest. Our physical body is our temple and temples can always be demolished and rebuild, but the eternal part, which is soul, always remains.

You are correct, and what you have said is my intent. I feel that we are experiencing the human experience, and nothing more. This is just another part of the whole, as interesting or horrific as it may be, and the best thing to do is embrace it, and most importantly, REMEMBER.

To live without fear is... wanted.

I will leave you all with this ROTE:

"There is no beginning, there is no end,
There is only change.

There is no teacher, there is no student,
There is only remembering.

There is no good, there is no evil,
There is only expression.

There is no union, there is no sharring,
There is only one.

There is no joy, there is no sadness,
There is only love.

There is no greater, there is no entropy,
There is only motion.

There is no wakefulness, there is no sleep,
There is only being.

There is no limit, there is no chance,
There is only plan."

Ultimate Journey -Robert A. Monroe

reply to post by awakened sleeper

Originally posted by awakened sleeper

"There is no beginning, there is no end,
There is only change.

There is no teacher, there is no student,
There is only remembering.

There is no good, there is no evil,
There is only expression.

There is no union, there is no sharring,
There is only one.

There is no joy, there is no sadness,
There is only love.

There is no greater, there is no entropy,
There is only motion.

There is no wakefulness, there is no sleep,
There is only being.

There is no limit, there is no chance,
There is only plan."

Ultimate Journey -Robert A. Monroe

That's a beatiful expression. By the way, I edited my previous post (which you quoted above), cuz I meant that all remains intact after death is the spirit, not the soul (I often mix these concepts, altho they have very distinguish meanings).

Anyways, all the best,

-v

Originally posted by v01i0

IMO, the awakening is one thing, acquiring wisdom(enlightment) is another. Awakening is important, because it is the feeling that you don't know everything and you become critic towards the knowledge you have been fed so far. I bet many people on ATS are indeed awakened ones; but those enlightened are rare. I suspect however, that there are few (hopefully!).

Interesting analogy. I enjoy detail and sharp distinctions in language, and I think that what you are calling "awakened" is what I would call fitful sleep. You are still snoozing, and dreaming, but there is some background awareness that it is a dream. The dream is still there, but you kinda sorta know it. It isnt quite lucid, you have no control, the dream still rolls on and you still do what you would have done, but you are aware that it is a dream.

What you are calling enlightened, I would call wide awake. The light is on, you see what is fully, crisply, as in Sonya's experience, and for that period of time, there is no confusion at all as to what is real. I think it may be possible to maintain this level of clarity, but I dont think anyone does. Yet. Maybe someday. Maybe there are now, and I simply havent ever seen or heard of them. Maybe some maintain this clarity most of the time, or part of the time, but I cannot really say it seems to me that even any of the ancient "mystics" have maintained it 100% of the time.

Some who have had the enlightenment experience move on to what I would say correlates to "lucid dreaming." You re-enter the dream, but within the dream you are completely aware that you are the dreamer, not the character in the dream. You can exercise conscious control (you make choices) over the actions of your character, and it then influences the whole dynamics of the dream. This is what I think most people think of "enlightened beings" as. Even here, there is variation in percentage of lucidity. I do not think it is all or nothing.

Many move on from the enlightenment phase back into the dream, without lucidity. The dreamer again becomes completely identified with the character in the dream, but the enlightenment itself becomes part of the dream. Now the dreamer is "the enlightened one" in the dream, and the story goes on without conscious control. Again, it is not an all or nothing state, there may be flashes or periods of lucidity.

Spirmabilis, (sorry for the spelling) says that she thinks the experience is different for everyone. I think the details are. The how it happens, the when, the where, how one describes it, the words one chooses, what percentage one can maintain Awareness, etc. In my own study of other people's experience and my own, it seems to me the "what is seen" when wide awake part is remarkably similar. From the Rig Veda, to Buddha, to Jesus, to any of the mystics, including Plato, Parmenides, Sonya's experience, my own, others I have heard of that I will not name in case they wish to remain anonymous, the "what is seen" seems to be a constant. Which one would expect if it had any sort of objective reality. I find that part the most interesting, if they were all very different experiences, we could very well be talking about hallucinations, or misfiring neurons. It seems to me that there is a shared experience, that contains some pretty specific elements, for instance the idea of connectedness, Oneness, non-duality, whatever ultimately inadequate word one chooses to use to describe it. And, the "idea" or knowing, that the Divine is both in every individual thing, and the greater than the sum of all individual things. (Thats clumsy too, just words)

In that, though, and I think that that is what Sonya is responding to when she talks about killing the Buddha, there is no room for hierarchy. No them, no us. (Aside from the apparent division that is part of the dream.) Clinging to the division, the separation, the individuality as identity, is the non-lucid dream. It isnt that while in the dream you lose the identity, (ego) or stop being a character, it is just that you know it is a character. And that all the characters, including the one you identify with, "you," are all manifestations of the Dreamer. Which is You with a capital "Y" but also the essence of every other character in the dream. Your individual "you," your identity, is not special nor is anyone else's.

Anyway, like some have said, the "goodness and light" aspect of the New Age version of enlightenment is tiresome. Never being able to say, "No, that isnt what I meant." Rejecting anything that is not "nice" is a judgment or duality based response, which is part of the non lucid dream. I dont think there is anything wrong with pointing out that what some are talking about "lightworkers" being, is not a part of this same experience. It is an apple, not an orange. Not bad, just not the same experience.

It isnt about degrading the thread into a brawl, it is just pointing out that they are not the same thing, for clarity's sake.

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


I enjoyed reading your post for it reveals another person that have thought about these matters. I see the meaning of your analogy of "lucid dreaming", however there's a difference with my "enlightened" and your "wide awake". Enlightened to me means somebody that has the gnosis, i.e knowledge. It can be very broad spectrum of knowledge or rather thin, specialized into some certain field of knowledge (for example, think of doctor that makes a breakthru in understanding some specific deficit), form of this type of 'englightment' of course is limited; the broad type 'enlightment' I'd connect to the people like Buddha, Swedenborg, Plato, Pythagoras, Schopenhauer and other great thinkers of past and contemporary.

Umm, for a moment I lost the thread I was following and forgot what I was saying, so I just move on commenting some of your thoughts in the light of psychology:

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
From the Rig Veda, to Buddha, to Jesus, to any of the mystics, including Plato, Parmenides, Sonya's experience, my own, others I have heard of that I will not name in case they wish to remain anonymous, the "what is seen" seems to be a constant. Which one would expect if it had any sort of objective reality.

I think that Jung explained the reason why the images and experience of mystical nature seem alike and same to different people; he called them archetypes, basically indoctrinated forms of conception of thousand years, most likely stored in the human form (here referring to Platinian form theory). These archetypes are old 'wise' men, blind women, eagles, trees, giants and so on. They can be found in most esoteric and alchemical writings.

Allright, I just recalled what I was about to say earlier about this 'lucid dreaming' concept of being enlightment. I cannot view it quite such way, because for me enlightened person is capable of changing his ideas and conceptions consciously. As I undertood, you are saying that one returns to the slumber after enligthment, and his behaviour is according to the enlightment?

Of course, I neither think it's all or nothing, for enlightened can fall again back into the "darkness", there are examples of it. These types fits your conception of 'falling back asleep' better IMO.

In the end, I am not saying that your conception would be correct or false, I am merely making my own more clear.

I wish you the best,

-v