Economy in Recession? More Liberal Lies?

Originally posted by crimvelvet
I am very confused by the economy. I look at the Census and see 14% government employees, 11% productive workers (actually produce goods) and the rest are service or management or government support.

I hear about banks in trouble and I see houses being auctioned yet my business, which is very recession sensitive is doing ok (thank goodness). Why if the US is no longer manufacturing goods do we seem to be doing ok still??

Because we print money we don't have... the physical dollar is printed but the funds or the concept of money behind the is lacking.

our counties national debt is about nine and a half trillion dollars

this is roughly $27 941.17 - the share owed by every man woman and child in the USA

As far as CHINA is concerned...

You get a credit card -

there is no cash involved for you right???

The "money" that is your credit

is often given as credit ("money part above")

from other countries such as CHINA

We owe CHINA about $1,000,000,000,000.00 as of the 15 of aug.

.Thanks for the clarification guys. That has had me really worried. Every plant I have worked in has closed their doors, same for my husband.

With Chinas rising inflation making costs go up you will start to see factories come back to America also. Just a fact in fact you are starting to see it now

This is good news too.

reply to post by jetxnet

The only recession in America is with regard to Housing scandals and high Gas prices.

and then you go on to say

America is only 300 million people. As the American middle class shrinks, there will be even less of those 300 million consumers.

Hmm if the only recession is the housing scandels and the high gas why is the middle class shrinking like it is?

The answer we are being robbed. Big government spending by the 2 party crime family has bankrupted our country. We have high inflation, a worthless dollar, wages going down not up, and a 10 trillion dollar debt with a 400 billion dollar interest payment due. Considering that the last government income was 2 trillion that means 20% of the tax dollars I pay to the government goes to big bankers. Oh and not to mention 5 trillion of the debt came directly from George W Bush. So keep believing there is a difference between the two parties and vote in McCain or Obama for that matter. I will say this at least Obama is going to raise taxes and make you pay up front instead of this put it on the charge card and pay big bankers big interest like Bush has been doing and like McCain will do.

reply to post by mental modulator


Actually its over 31 thousand dollars. You a little short.

www.brillig.com...



[edit on 31-8-2008 by mybigunit]

Originally posted by jetxnet

Hey listen no doubt about it China has had a great run. But when America quits consuming you will start to see their factories close in mass. When that happens you will start to see their working class collapse. With Chinas rising inflation making costs go up you will start to see factories come back to America also. Just a fact in fact you are starting to see it now

I wish that were the case, but other countries are starting to consume more of China's products than American products.

America is only 300 million people. As the American middle class shrinks, there will be even less of those 300 million consumers.

China has over 1 Billion people. As they gain a middle class, most of those consumers will be buying Chinese.

China is becoming self-sustained.

[edit on 31-8-2008 by jetxnet]

your about 40 million off POP ulation wise.


YOU see as the middle class shrinks we will become like Mexico...

The companies will make all the choices and your voice will become smaller and smaller...

The politicians, like in MEXICO will appeal to your pride and hormones and wave the flag in your face, while the pick pocket you and continue to lower the riches taxes.

As goes MEXICO will go USA... JOHNMCLAME!!! And GoddessSARAH!!!

Jetxnet and others on here don't seem to big on history,,, we are walking down the road of MEXICO, piss poor or A FIVE STORY MANSION thats all there will be.

As in Mexico the conservative are trying to conserve the powers that be and the status quo, which is to make money at any and all costs.


Mexico waited to long to change and now look at the place. Almighty anointed GoddesSarah!

Mexico will become part of the US though, as will Canada. The North American Union. One step closer to a New World Order.

China and Russia don't want to be part of the US NWO. It's why Russia is strongly against the former Russian Republics going under NATO.

In fact, Russia just stated recently that the Georgia event was to "balance the New World Order".

The US just built up China thinking China could be outsmarted, but China outsmarted the US.

You think the war in Iraq is something to bytch about? Wait until there is one with Russia and/or China in an attempt to achieve New World Order objectives.

Obama is the New World Order puppet in this election.

[edit on 31-8-2008 by jetxnet]

The level of economic education on ATS is shockingly low. Someone presents data showing that we are indeed not in a recession, and the replies to this don't even refute the data, but are all classical deflection tactics:

- 1) The "But you say that because your rich!" tactic.
This is where, because someone doesn't have it as hard as you do and does not hold your worldview, you claim its just because they have more than you. This does not mean anything. Someones relative income compared to yours does not impact the data that was presented.

- 2) The "But I have it so hard, it must be the economy's fault!" tactic.
There is no logical reason to believe that your personal experiences are reflective of the economy as a whole. Misery loves company, so only those who are doing "bad" are most likely to speak up. Just because you have it bad doesn't mean everyone else does, you assume so because you are attributing your current status to the "bad economy," when its most likely your own actions that put you where your currently at.

- 3) The use of out of context cherry picked data.
In this thread alone, I've seen:
a) "But companies have asked for bail outs!" - Companies always ask for bail outs. Good times, bad times, OK times. Its what they do. In fact, they are more likely to ride the wave of "the economy is horrible" to get more public sentiment for bail outs even if everything is OK ("free money" is good money).
b) "But..but..the federal reserve!" - You can't blame the federal reserve for everything. Fractional reserve banking does not create recessions, and never has.
c) "But...BANKS ARE FAILING!" - Banks always fail. HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS of banks failed during the Savings & Loans fiasco. Currently, how many have failed - 10? And 100 or so are on the watch list? So all of them would have to fail, and we'd still be at about 20% of the S&L fiasco.

-4) The "But our manufacturing jobs are overseas!"
This is a pointless argument used by those who have not recognized that we are no longer in the Industrial Revolution era, and we have moved on to a global knowledge economy. The economic value of a manufacturing job is nothing compared to the knowledge economy jobs we now have. Companies are global, just because they make something elsewhere does that the wealth generated by selling the product will not come back to the US.

The truth is the OP is right. There is no recession. This is a classical media campaign tactic - make things look worse than they really are. Doom gets ratings, good times dont.

Originally posted by jamie83


Get outside and look around. The economy is thriving. The MSM would have you believe we're in the worst economy since 1929. We're not.

I should not even reply to zombie driven threads but I will.

The economy is THRIVING!?!? OMG I cant believe that statement!

I know whats up with the economy. I used to sell cars back in the 90's and have traveled all around the nation being a hired gun for dealerships, they called our group "the smothies" We would book gigs at dealerships and take over with our own staff, sales, sales managers and finance. We were making 2K per week doing that.

It has come to a complete halt NATION WIDE dude. Stopped dead because the economy is crashing. I know mega indoor shopping mall managment who manage malls all over the country. They tell me its really bad.

Why would you make a halfbaked statement like the economy is thriving?

Unreal.

How can you deny we are in a recession when it's symptoms are in front of your face? Those liberals must be lying again... Conservatives are proven bringers of truth! /sarcasm off

"Recession" or not, doesn't matter. The economics problems of this country are inflation related. The middle class, well, what used to be middle class, has had, due to massive inflation, their income remain stable but be worth half of what it used to be. This effect show's up in the GDP in places, but it not entirelly or accurately reflected in the GDP, as there are those who are making billions off of inflation, and robbing the average joe in the process.

The thing is, it's not a right or left issue. Both sides are more than happy to inflate the dollar into oblivion. A taxation, without representation, by a non-elected, non-government entity. Something that should make every one of you very angry and very eager to change things. But Obama and McCain are not going to change this, while it is by far the biggest threat to the US today. Islam has nothing on Mr. Bernake and his organization.

reply to post by saturnine_sweet


Star for you ...someone sees the big picture. I think this op is just baiting to see how many flames he can get.

While technically the U.S. is not in a recession, the U.S. is experiencing the shock of several bubbles and will be effected adversely by a global recession.

#1 Housing Crisis

With the repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act, banks were allowed to securitize loans. This created a moral hazard within the banking industry. Banks started lending to anyone because they can just sell off the debts. This increased housing prices which increased investor demand for these debts, which increased building activity, which increased the economy. Once the payments on homes became to high, the whole thing collapsed and shocked the economy.

#2 Credit Crunch

Because of the housing crash, investors stopped buying loans, not just for mortgages but for almost everything else as well. Banks had to go with their pre-repeal Glass-Steagall Act days by default. Loans are now hard to attain without investors buying debt and with the effects of non-securitized loans going bad, banks are sitting on their good loans trying to gain capital while avoiding any lending activity that can expose them even more than they already are. The lack of credit flowing through the economy will dry up capital that many businesses need to operate, hence there are a lot of businesses failing.

# 2 1/2 Credit crunch

Due to the housing crash, an ENORMOUS amount of money was lost by foreign investors. Global economic woes are spreading because of this and will probably affect the U.S. If Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac collapses without bailout, the Chinese economy will fail due to their huge investments into the U.S. The Chinese bought these investments to keep their currency where it is, not because they were nice but because it increases their exports. This is a wildcard and I have no clue what can possibly happen here.

#3 Oil prices.

Whether by terrorists, manufactured demand, or speculation, high oil prices increase inflation. This is nailing people directly with fuel prices and indirectly with other commodities increasing. The money from the high prices is also flowing to foreign countries. With the housing crash, those foreign countries are not investing as much in the U.S. so there is more vanishing capital.

#4 government spending.

The government is running up huge deficits which further decrease the value of the dollar. This increases the oil prices but does help with exports. Exports are what drove the economy in the plus side along with the stimulus package.

I was looking for a reason to disagree with Jamie on something and I guess I partially found it.

In all, the economic climate is dangerous. While we are not technically in a recession, the confidence in the economy is teetering and all it takes is one bad financial failure to set everything off. Confidence is everything, if that breaks, that's it. The current market losses around the world and the panic going on within the banking system tells exactly where the confidence level is. However, if the economy can break out of the credit crunch, then everything should be alright.

As for who is to blame, it goes to both parties. Bill Clinton signed the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act which repealed the Glass-Steagall Act and got the whole subprime mess started. The republicans are the ones that wrote that law in the first place.

Both parties are fond of increased spending, while the republicans are fond of borrowing to support the spending and the dems are fond of taxing the hell out of everything.

The Dems have a weak energy policy based on undeveloped technology while at the same time hindering proven energy technology because they believe that the Earth never had a climate cycle until man showed up.

TLDR version, the economy isn't rosy, the liberals aren't exactly lying but they are trying to cover their involvement.

Originally posted by saturnine_sweet
Both sides are more than happy to inflate the dollar into oblivion. A taxation, without representation, by a non-elected, non-government entity.

Don't forget that it is regressive.

Inflation affects most the poorer a person is.

[edit on 31-8-2008 by wutone]

reply to post by wutone


Heh you cant just "break" out of a credit crisis. The only way to get out of this mess is for mass bankruptcies to occur and for the housing values to go down at least another 30 to 50%. That is the only way this situation is going to be fixed. But the government is not allowing this to happen. Instead they are printing more and more money to prop up bad debt. It hasnt worked and it will not work this time. A crash needs to happen to fix this situation. It sucks but that is how it has to be.

Tecnoly we are not in a recesstion yet, but lets take a shot at reality for a moment and look at some real %#. Fisrt of all lets remember that we cant always beleve what comes out of DC when it comes to money and politics. Theres no way this press is going to let the economy die on his whatch no mater what,and when you take a look at the real deffiset which is some where around 59 trillon dollars you have to ask your self how long can we keep on this track before it all comes down. Our leaders are just not being realistic,There not going to tell you the truth because if you knew there whould probly be and uprising in this country.So they just keep borrowing from the private banksters that everybody calls the fedral reserve, and pay just the the interest while the princible keeps growing.Sure the economy has been growing over the last few years, but a lot of it was bought on credit and sooner or later it has to be payed back.One of these days sooner or later countrys like CHINA are going to want there money and if they cash in the bonds that they have were going to be in trouble.

Originally posted by mybigunit
reply to post by wutone

 

Heh you cant just "break" out of a credit crisis. The only way to get out of this mess is for mass bankruptcies to occur and for the housing values to go down at least another 30 to 50%. That is the only way this situation is going to be fixed. But the government is not allowing this to happen. Instead they are printing more and more money to prop up bad debt. It hasnt worked and it will not work this time. A crash needs to happen to fix this situation. It sucks but that is how it has to be.

It's not government, its governments. Almost every country with a fiat currency and a central bank is doing this. The subprime bubble and crash were the first dominoes to fall.

Money isn't being printed to prop up bad debt, it is printed to prop up the banking industry which runs the the printing in the first place.

It is entirely possible to break out of the credit crisis but the sacrifice would be much of the banking industry. IT CAN be contained be a new monetary policy.

When you add in the new medicare drug benifit with all the retiremet of the baby bomers over the next few years , theres just not going to be enough money for it all.Thats the truth,please dont let them lie to you.Somthings gota give soon and it ant gona be pretty.Plaese do not beleve the main stream media ,they are not going to tell you the truth no matter what. When you add up all the states together the real debt is around 59 trillon. The only way we could pay it down is if we sold every peice of realestate in the country 3 times. Just remember that when you think you own your home.We are in deep DO DO! Shut off the TV and WAKE UP AMERICA BEFORE ITS TO LATE !!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by wutone

It's not government, its governments. Almost every country with a fiat currency and a central bank is doing this. The subprime bubble and crash were the first dominoes to fall.

Money isn't being printed to prop up bad debt, it is printed to prop up the banking industry which runs the the printing in the first place.

It is entirely possible to break out of the credit crisis but the sacrifice would be much of the banking industry. IT CAN be contained be a new monetary policy.

Hmm what are these banking bailouts and where is the money coming from? Where did that money come to pay for BSC or where is the money going to come from to give to the FDIC or Fannie or Freddie. Its going to be printed and or borrowed. So yes they are printing money to prop up bad debt. They need to go under. They need to fail as stated in my above post. There needs to be a lot of bankruptcies and yes a new monetary system but you and I know this will NEVER happen. The fact is anytime there is a huge boom of credit then a retraction like we just saw bankruptcies are inevitable because there is never enough money to pay off existing debt. That is how this scam works and this is how the banking interests rob people of their wealth. Through inflation. Its disgusting. Vote Ron Paul 2008

Originally posted by studioguy2002
When you add in the new medicare drug benifit with all the retiremet of the baby bomers over the next few years , theres just not going to be enough money for it all.Thats the truth,please dont let them lie to you.Somthings gota give soon and it ant gona be pretty.Plaese do not beleve the main stream media ,they are not going to tell you the truth no matter what. When you add up all the states together the real debt is around 59 trillon. The only way we could pay it down is if we sold every peice of realestate in the country 3 times. Just remember that when you think you own your home.We are in deep DO DO! Shut off the TV and WAKE UP AMERICA BEFORE ITS TO LATE !!!!!!!!!!

Actually we have 64 trillion in obligations. The national debt is 10 trillion but the obligations are 64 trillion. Yes this needs to be addressed and these numbers can not be paid back no matter how much they tax. The fact is I hope you people like slavery because its coming.

You know, the quality of ATS has really taken a turn for the worse.

It used to be members actually would post sources of information, or data, to support or refute somebody's theories.

Now I get accused for "baiting" because I post real data that counters the liberal religious belief that the U.S. is in a recession when in fact the U.S. economy is on track to GROW at 3.3% this year.

Income is growing. Production is growing. Savings is growing. Retail sales is growing. Tax revenues are growing. And this is in spite of oil prices doubling and gas costing almost $4 a gallon.

There is no conspiracy by the Federal Reserve to doctor the numbers. They are real. Every investment bank uses this data in their daily business.

Perhaps rather than make posts parroting Democratic talking points about how we are in a recession one might actually provide sources or evidence to counter my claim that we are not.

Good luck with that.