Economy in Recession? More Liberal Lies?

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posted on Sep, 1 2008 @ 11:11 PM
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Originally posted by pluckynoonez
The Democratic Party takes all of the blame for liberal lies, they are Godless and treasoness.

Kittens do poop, as they do age.


KITTENS WHAT!!
poop you say.......Noooooooo....Well ya learn something everyday on ole ATS.

Say Plucky, Ever hear of a spell checker??? that's treasonous, and I did consider the source




posted on Sep, 1 2008 @ 11:30 PM
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reply to post by marg6043
 


The politicians in D.C. of both parties just foisted the bill for the Wall Street con men and banksters mortgage scams on the US taxpayers, to the tune of at least one trillion damn dollars, and all these "geniuses" posting here want to talk about how "liberals" are to blame for all their ills, while labeling the economy as "jes' fine.". Wow, you know they don't pay bills, fill up gas tanks, or buy groceries.

I think these children should turn off the computer, and go look for a job in American manufacturing. Oh oops, off-shored. Or explain how wonderful the economy is, while jobs are disappearing, while banks are failing weekly. While foreclosures are running at record rates thanks to this criminal administration that detests regulation of their criminal behavior.

While states are running deficits and the nation is buried with debt we can never repay, mostly almost entirely to money borrowed by Reagan, Bush1 and Bush2. The dollar is worth roughly half what it was when Bush took office. The $150 billion surplus left by that "liberal" Clinton? Squandered in 6 months by Bush through "tax cuts" for his billionaire cronies.

And THAT'S a fact these fools will never admit, to themselves or others: Republicans can't lead, follow or plan strategy. They abhor free speech, and enjoy reveling in their ignorance. Which is why America tossed their worthless butts in 2006, and put in the equally worthless Democrats.

Imagine being this lame: Actually believing ANY information put out by this criminal administration, or it's enabling Congressional cohorts.

It boggles the mind.

Either children, or paid propagandists, not sure, but easily spotted.

Let me ask you "conservative" geniuses something: On 9/11/01, this country was attacked by an alleged coalition of "terrorists". We got hit with a "shock and awe" attack. You weren't shocked and awed at first? Then you aren't human. Yet, with all of America stunned, angry and wanting answers, who were the ONLY PEOPLE in America that DID NOT WANT an investigation of the people responsible?

TWO people. Bush and Cheney.

Then, who led a "shock and awe" attack on a nation that had NOTHING to do with 9/11/01?

That's right.

I can assure you, only the guilty want no investigation. Only the guilty would label it an ATTACK, and not a CRIME, because a MILITARY response replaces REAL COP INVESTIGATIONS, which would have led back to the REAL PERPS. They weren't who the ignorant masses have been told they were by the lying msm, for certain. (But nice try by this threads author to label the corporate presstitutes at CNN, MSNBC, FOX, NBC, ABC "liberal", almost spit out my coffee reading that one)

I don't say this lightly: Those supporting this administration support TREASON. WAR CRIMES.

You're the worst of the worst America has to offer.



posted on Sep, 2 2008 @ 12:01 AM
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Originally posted by Blacknapkins
Edit: If there isn't a Conspiracy behind our economics over the past 30 years, then it is the single largest, disgusting, mismanagement of funds i've ever seen. At both the individual and governmental level of things. The stage has been set for hyper-inflation, and i pray to god that it doesn't come about...

[edit on 1-9-2008 by Blacknapkins]


Totally true.

This situation is beyond politics. There has been a huge amount of passing along responsibilities in all levels of American, and now global life. The amount of moral hazards that permeate through the economy are huge.

The entire global economy is in grave danger and this isn't primarily Bush's fault even though it is hip to blame anything wrong in the world on Bush. The credit crisis that is occurring is part of the publicly unknown or unspoken greed and corruption bubble that has been allowed to inflate for 30 years.



posted on Sep, 2 2008 @ 12:37 AM
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Originally posted by wutone

Originally posted by Blacknapkins
Edit: If there isn't a Conspiracy behind our economics over the past 30 years, then it is the single largest, disgusting, mismanagement of funds i've ever seen. At both the individual and governmental level of things. The stage has been set for hyper-inflation, and i pray to god that it doesn't come about...

[edit on 1-9-2008 by Blacknapkins]


Totally true.

This situation is beyond politics. There has been a huge amount of passing along responsibilities in all levels of American, and now global life. The amount of moral hazards that permeate through the economy are huge.

The entire global economy is in grave danger and this isn't primarily Bush's fault even though it is hip to blame anything wrong in the world on Bush. The credit crisis that is occurring is part of the publicly unknown or unspoken greed and corruption bubble that has been allowed to inflate for 30 years.



Right, I mean we should be living in a 'Free Market', and that means when these huge mortgage lending banks get bailed out, it's the American citizen that's ultimately paying the price. We should be mad as hell, these companies gave out all of these sub-prime mortgages, hell a lot of them never even ask for a frickin' down payment, the most important part.

But it's the low interest rates and expanding money supply that's really going to bite us in the ass in the future.

Also, all of the people in this thread who think China will suffer permanently from our financial blunders, I think, is sadly mistaken. As someone else pointed out, we make up 300million people, that's roughly 1/3 of China's population. They'll be better off without us when they let their currency appreciate against the dollar. Sure, they'll take a cut in the short run, they made a bad investment in the US dollar, by buying all of our debt. In the long-run though, they're going to have the middle class, no the US, it's already happening. The middle class in the US is a JOKE, all of our good manufacturing jobs are gone, we don't make and export as many goods as we did in our 'prime'.

After WW2 all of those factories went from producing war crap to producing consumer crap, but it was made here, and we bought it. We made good investments as a nation and actually saved our money, we had a 10-14% personal savings rate, today we have a 1-3% at best.

I mean, people can say things like, "Oh, we'll just default our debt and everything will be okay". This might be true, however unethical.

Inflation. An increase in the prices of goods and services, usually tied to an increase of money in circulation.

This is the problem, it will be the selling off of US treasuries, this would be a huge influx of dollars back into the US money supply. A rapid increase like this will cripple the dollar, and make it practically worthless. Meaning that it will take much more dollars to buy good/services that shouldn't cost that much, IE: hyperinflation. This is the scenario that has been set (I wonder if not engineered) before us.

This is what worries me the most, to be honest. I TRY not too buy into the NAU, and 'Amero' talk, but I can't help but see the actions of the Fed. and our government as laying the groundwork for such a collapse. This would be the perfect scenario to coerce the American public into a North American Union, and a new currency. I find it hard to believe...but at the same time...all the signs are pointing towards it..

I'd suggest anyone who is interested in more fundamental Econ. concepts, to check out Peter Schiff. I think he's great. Not only that, he's been spot on, in calling the mortgage crisis. I invested in gold back in 04' and saw 350% profits. I mean after all this is what it's about the 'Fundamentals', and I think Peter does an excellent job of explaining things. Plus, he's been right...often.



posted on Sep, 2 2008 @ 03:03 AM
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Recession or not , liberal or neocon matters very little I fear.I do however have a terrible aversion to the hardcore neocons and their love of the great war machine and use thereof.I do share some of the conservative values.I also share many of the liberal values.I think we do need another option but think due to the money machine it wont happen.I am still wanting to make people see that money is power and if you want to find the power find the money.Please take a look at this site:


www.afn.org...


The boys with the power have been at it a long time and we were warned of them long ago.If you want to really find out about our monetary system find out who is in control.The country might not be in recession according to these cute little charts I see posted all over this thread, but I myself and many other families around here in NC are in recession.

I am mid fourties , a power plant operator, rent a home for under 500.00 a month, and drive a hyundai.We only have one car.My significant other was a cna for many years but is now disabled with degenerative disc disease and another skeletal muscle bone disorder I cant even pronounce much less type.We struggle and live paycheck to paycheck.I keep seeing posts by some saying folks just want to live off the gov. and it hurts.I am sure my wife would rather work than live in constant pain.She paid in taxes for many years and even does today when she buys almost anything.I have paid in and continue to pay in so much in income tax alone, tax on gas, communications, etc.If you fart seems the gov. taxes you.So if I we pay/paid in and she has medical expenses we need help with , your darn straight we are going to get help from big brother.

I just hope some of you posting here about others not being smart enough to save and prepare for hard times yadda,yadda,yadda fall off your high horse one day and remember the words you have written.Us "dumb" folks
will be down here on earth waiting for you when you fall from the clouds.



posted on Sep, 2 2008 @ 10:01 AM
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I have just read a couple pages of this topic and I feel like there is a lot of one sided opinions here. First off, let me start by saying that I am a 23 year old mother of a 9 month old child who is happily married for 2 years now. I graduated high school and I am now attending college. My husband has his Merchant Mariners license and has worked on tug boats making $22.00 per hour since he was 19 (now 25). We were living in an upscale apartment paying over $1000 a month and we were living very comfortably. Neither of us ever had a credit card, though we had many offers. We spent only what we had, never used money that was not in out bank accounts or pockets. We always paid all of our bills before the due date, therefore we had no debt. With that being said, We felt that we were financially ready to have a child.

In May of 2008, my husband was laid off from his place of employment due to one of the company's major accounts having to close their business down. That company was 85% of my husbands job pretty much. He went from being gone on pipeline jobs 2 weeks out of every month to having one 24 hour job every couple of days. His company was no longer able to keep all of their employees on the pay roll. Since he lost his job, we had to move out of our home to a 3 room apartment and lost our insurance. He is now working at a moving company making $9.00/hr. We now in debt, and there are many a days where we have to choose between food or gas. If you can really come on here and say that you are living great right now, then thats wonderful that you have not had to deal with the effects of what has been going on. But please, don't assume that everyone is living as good as you are. Count you blessings while you have them! It is very hard for people my age right now. We are just starting our lives, and most of us can not afford to live. Then we decide to go to school to better ourselves, and the debt just piles higher. Please take into account that there are a lot of people around my age, that never did anything wrong and have always been responsible individuals who are suffering because of things that happened when we were children (Country's ongoing debt for example). Weather we are in a recession or not, I don't really know because as bad as things get, there are always people saying that we are not. All I know is that my life has changed dramatically, and its not because we had a baby, its because he lost his job. We only have cable and internet because we were fortunate enough to find an apartment that included it in the rent. Just be a little more open minded, regardless of your position on the topic.



posted on Sep, 2 2008 @ 10:09 AM
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reply to post by KaginD
 


The problem with government figures is that the government will play with the basic GDP formula to make it more appealing to the numbers they want to show, many often completely disregarding that our nation is losing jobs at an alarming rate.

Growth is measure now no on cash spend in goods but credit card that are actually debt.

Here in my neck of the woods we are 1 of the top 10 states with foreclosures highest rates.

The state sponsored housing list per county of has gotten so long that they are not longer adding more names.

Meanwhile very soon the question of where the homeless will be living is becoming a very ugly issue and nobody wants to take or make any decisions.

But is ok, is all lies and America is doing great.


Meanwhile houses are sitting empty after foreclosures, with another big problem, vandalism.



posted on Sep, 2 2008 @ 10:18 AM
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reply to post by jamie83
 


Are you merely posting economic data or do you have the education to interpret it? Have you taken any economic classes or do you have a degree in economics? I'm not trying to insult you but economics is more than just reading graphs. It is a very complex subject that has to be looked at by applying many variables not just looking at a collective group of graphs. This is a serious question not meant to be an insult. There is a reason that the federal reserve chairman is always an accomplished economist. You cant just look at graphs and say things are great or things are bad. Thats just not how it works.



posted on Sep, 2 2008 @ 10:26 AM
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reply to post by jetxnet
 


Are you aware that the government numbers for unemployment do not include those people who have stopped looking for a job. They are referred to as discouraged workers. Most unemployment numbers are done by door to door survey and those who are receiving unemployment benefits. If you have been unemployed for over 6 months you are no longer included in the unemployment number. This is flawed and does not give an accurate representation of the number of people in this country that are truly without jobs.

So there is one example of how the govt misrepresents the number to give the appearance that unemployment is not really that bad. Its only accurate within a 6 month window and does not include those who are are still looking.


Scroll down to the United States Bureau of Labor Statistics section
Source

Enjoy



posted on Sep, 2 2008 @ 10:38 AM
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Originally posted by jamie83
You know, the quality of ATS has really taken a turn for the worse.

It used to be members actually would post sources of information, or data, to support or refute somebody's theories.

Now I get accused for "baiting" because I post real data that counters the liberal religious belief that the U.S. is in a recession when in fact the U.S. economy is on track to GROW at 3.3% this year.

Income is growing. Production is growing. Savings is growing. Retail sales is growing. Tax revenues are growing. And this is in spite of oil prices doubling and gas costing almost $4 a gallon.

There is no conspiracy by the Federal Reserve to doctor the numbers. They are real. Every investment bank uses this data in their daily business.

Perhaps rather than make posts parroting Democratic talking points about how we are in a recession one might actually provide sources or evidence to counter my claim that we are not.

Good luck with that.

Such numbers are relative. Economies are always or most of the time growing even when they are doing badly. Your numbers do not take count of inflation over the years. Inflation does hurt economic growth. Good example is Zimbabwe, their economy is in shatter because of astronomical inflation but their govt can say that they are actually producing more by showing selected numbers, same numbers you base your claims upon. If you want sources there are plenty in Google or ask anyone with some economic background.



posted on Sep, 2 2008 @ 10:41 AM
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reply to post by jamie83
 


We are not in a recession so much as “stagflation” but each economic “episode of this kind is different.

What doesn’t surprise me Jam is that you are so eager to follow the Rep. Party line and try to make political hay out of these numbers.

THis particular line of BS makes the Republican Party look desperate and painfully out of touch .."LOOK INTO MY EYES....THE ECONOMY IS DOING GREAT" What idiots.

It’s BS like this that makes good people not trust the Republican party.

The GDP Numbers…..Our domestic situation sucks…the dollar is weak, so foreigners are buying all of our stuff (exports up)

Otherwise good news=Higher exports, bad news = Some fundemtal problems at home with fuel costs, energy costs, food costs etc...some pretty core indexes. Also ...the largest deficiet in history allowing for practically no fiscal policy management.

Exports Spur GDP Growth In Second Quarter
www.npr.org...

Consumer prices were up more than 5 percent in July compared to a year before; that's the biggest jump in nearly 20 years. Wholesale prices are rising even faster, and that's not a good thing.



posted on Sep, 2 2008 @ 10:59 AM
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Originally posted by marg6043
reply to post by KaginD
 


The problem with government figures is that the government will play with the basic GDP formula to make it more appealing to the numbers they want to show, many often completely disregarding that our nation is losing jobs at an alarming rate.

Growth is measure now no on cash spend in goods but credit card that are actually debt.

Here in my neck of the woods we are 1 of the top 10 states with foreclosures highest rates.

The state sponsored housing list per county of has gotten so long that they are not longer adding more names.

Meanwhile very soon the question of where the homeless will be living is becoming a very ugly issue and nobody wants to take or make any decisions.

But is ok, is all lies and America is doing great.


Meanwhile houses are sitting empty after foreclosures, with another big problem, vandalism.


I agree with you. We were living in Florida when he lost his job. My husband is the "no handouts" type, so much to my dismay, he would not file for unemployment. The jobs down there were horrible, so we decided to move to PA. The employment here is so much better. It just goes to show that one state can be doing as good as they were 10 years ago, while another is felling the backlash 100 times harder. My grandfather is retired and spends a huge portion of his day in the garage painting, so he sees everything that is going on on the block. He always tells me how this neighbor was foreclosed, that one had their car repossessed, the house on the corner is up for rent again. I think there are probably about 50 houses on their block and at least half of them are up for sale through foreclosure or the owners not being able to make ends meet.

What bothers me about all of this is somewhere along the line people became very thoughtless of their fellow Americans. There is no compassion anymore. I'm not saying to pity people, but at least try to understand that a lot of things that are happening to people right now is not in their control. People that do drugs and drain the system through food stamps and government assistance because they refuse to work is one thing. But, a family that has always done what they were suppose to do and just got dealt a bad hand does not deserve to be put down.



posted on Sep, 2 2008 @ 11:15 AM
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reply to post by KaginD
 


While personal stories do not reflect the Economy as a whole across the country, I do get the feeling more and more people are in your shoes. Well, I know they are, otherwise first notice foreclosure's would not be at an all time high.

Of course, just imagine if your husband lost his job and you had 15k in student loans, another 10k in credit card debt etc.
That is what most American's are feeling.

Corporate profits are up. We know this. In fact, many corporations are breaking record profits yearly, quarterly and so forth. However, wage increases are the lowest in 20 years, inflation the highest (by Gov standards) in 17 years, fuel surpassed by inflation the 1970's crises at $98 a barrel, food has never seen inflation like this in living memory. Where stock piles of food go through volatility of extremely expensive to expensive and back again.

We are seeing the disclosure of major fraud against American citizens by financial institutions through faulty loaning by giving money to people who cannot pay it back. Criminal interest rates. A bank can charge you 32% on a credit card and give you .2% on your bank account. Raped. And what does our Government do, this Government for the people, by the people? They take our tax dollars and give it to the banks "for the greater good".

By God if we are not the fattest laziest self involved pos bunch of citizenry, had the backbone of our ancestors or possessed an ounce of dignity we would hang those bastards in the streets of DC.

When we declared our independence we where fed up and pissed off over little things like taxing paper and tea. Nowadays if it can't be taxed it's illegal. And when some major cartel rapes the American people's lively hood we raise taxes to bail them out. Not sure if I am the only one seeing the parallel, but where is the cry for change, change by any means necessary?

We build up self induced bubbles of reality that cover us and those around us and pretend the rest of the world doesn't exist. The government could use our tax dollars to have a massive orgy on the House Floor and we wouldn't give a damn so long as it isn't on Prime Time television and interrupts American Idol. This country doesn't deserve what it has, doesn't deserve it's quality of life, and it sure as hell doesn't deserve the God given rights of freedom.

I think it's safe to say: Consider the experiment of Democracy a complete and utter failure.

[edit on 9/2/2008 by Rockpuck]



posted on Sep, 2 2008 @ 11:28 AM
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reply to post by maybereal11
 


Another thing it also do not take into consideration the billions in stimulus checks to help boost the economy.

The third quarter is not looking very peachy as the unemployment ratio is higher and consumer spending has slow down as the stimulus checks dry out.



posted on Sep, 2 2008 @ 11:47 AM
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Originally posted by iamcamouflage

Are you merely posting economic data or do you have the education to interpret it? Have you taken any economic classes or do you have a degree in economics? I'm not trying to insult you but economics is more than just reading graphs. It is a very complex subject that has to be looked at by applying many variables not just looking at a collective group of graphs. This is a serious question not meant to be an insult. There is a reason that the federal reserve chairman is always an accomplished economist. You cant just look at graphs and say things are great or things are bad. Thats just not how it works.


I have two engineering majors, a minor in economics, and I work in the private equity industry. Yes, I can read economic data, and yes, some things really are simple.

For example, a recession is a very simple concept. A recession is defined as two consecutive quarters of economic contraction, as opposed to economic growth.

The standard measurement of economic growth is GDP. GDP is increasing at an annual rate of 3.3% based on the 2nd quarter June 30, 2008 figures.

Thus, there is no recession.

Why not post the same question to some of the obviously less educated members who do nothing but rattle off the now defunct Air America talking points claiming the U.S. is in the worst recession in history?



posted on Sep, 2 2008 @ 11:53 AM
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Originally posted by TheOracle

Such numbers are relative. Economies are always or most of the time growing even when they are doing badly. Your numbers do not take count of inflation over the years. Inflation does hurt economic growth.


Yes, some numbers are relative, that's why they are measured in terms of percent change and growth. And my numbers do take into account inflation, which is still close to historically low levels in spite of the spike in energy prices.




Good example is Zimbabwe, their economy is in shatter because of astronomical inflation but their govt can say that they are actually producing more by showing selected numbers, same numbers you base your claims upon. If you want sources there are plenty in Google or ask anyone with some economic background.



Well instead of just telling us all about how easy it is to find economic data on Google to support your argument, why not spend about 2 minutes doing the research yourself and enlightening us all with what you find.

This is really simple. I'm not sure what it is that makes people compelled to display their ignorance on a site whose motto is "Deny Ignorance."

We are not in a recession. As of June 30, 2008, the economy was growing at the rate of 3.3% annually. If you have data that says otherwise, please post it. Otherwise you will be doing nothing more than exposing your own biases, ignorance, and inability to grasp simple concepts.



posted on Sep, 2 2008 @ 11:57 AM
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Originally posted by marg6043
reply to post by maybereal11
 


Another thing it also do not take into consideration the billions in stimulus checks to help boost the economy.

The third quarter is not looking very peachy as the unemployment ratio is higher and consumer spending has slow down as the stimulus checks dry out.



Yes, giving us our own money back is an important consideration.

Please run the numbers for us and explain how the $95 billion impacts an economy that has over $12 trillion in disposable income.

Basically, your claim is that the government removed $95 billion (I think this was your figure from a previous post) of disposable income from the economy, and has now returned it.

So wouldn't the implication of that be that even if we were in a recession, it would be the government's fault for taking too much money in taxes?



posted on Sep, 2 2008 @ 12:29 PM
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reply to post by jamie83
 




For example, a recession is a very simple concept. A recession is defined as two consecutive quarters of economic contraction, as opposed to economic growth.


Indeed, we are not in a recession by government standards.

However, I still await you detailing to me How the GOVERNMENT numbers are CORRECT?

Really not that hard mate, if you know what your talking about (which so far it's been copy and paste/regurgitation of Government sites.....)

www.shadowstats.com...



posted on Sep, 2 2008 @ 12:30 PM
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Originally posted by jamie83

Originally posted by iamcamouflage

Are you merely posting economic data or do you have the education to interpret it? Have you taken any economic classes or do you have a degree in economics? I'm not trying to insult you but economics is more than just reading graphs. It is a very complex subject that has to be looked at by applying many variables not just looking at a collective group of graphs. This is a serious question not meant to be an insult. There is a reason that the federal reserve chairman is always an accomplished economist. You cant just look at graphs and say things are great or things are bad. Thats just not how it works.


I have two engineering majors, a minor in economics, and I work in the private equity industry. Yes, I can read economic data, and yes, some things really are simple.

For example, a recession is a very simple concept. A recession is defined as two consecutive quarters of economic contraction, as opposed to economic growth.

The standard measurement of economic growth is GDP. GDP is increasing at an annual rate of 3.3% based on the 2nd quarter June 30, 2008 figures.

Thus, there is no recession.

Why not post the same question to some of the obviously less educated members who do nothing but rattle off the now defunct Air America talking points claiming the U.S. is in the worst recession in history?


You're completely right. In all technical sense of the term Recession, we are NOT in one right now ACCORDING TO GOVERNMENT DATA. Learn what's in the data and what isn't in the data. Know that inflation should be double or more than what the government reports, this is what has been driving gas prices.

The ONLY reason we're not in a recession is because of the liquidity that the Fed. has pumped into the system to put it off in the short-term. Long-term I think things will get ugly.

Disposable income = all net income factored in after deducing taxes,medicare, SS, pension.

So what? 12Trillion? If you calculate all of the SS/medicare/cad that the government is liable for it's around 50Trillion. No way in hell they can cough up that kind of money, my generation won't see a dime of SS.

Plus, who cares about the total number, what you want is the average number of disposable income. This will give you much better overall data, because of that 12trillion of DI, it might only be in the hands of 5% of the overall population. Thus, a misleading number, for many Americans.

Not only that, look at the Annual % personal savings rate that I posted. It's in the 1-3% range depending on where/how it's calculated. This means Americans AREN'T SAVING.

Median yearly income of one person equals let's say, 40,000, make it 80,00 for a typical middle-class family.

80,00*3%= 2,400 personal savings a year, and that's being nice with the data. When our economy was strong people would save 10-12% a year, but that's when people actually paid their down payments and could afford their mortgage as well, and didn't rely on it for equity.

Then factor in CPI using the data from shadowstats.com (they calculate CPI like it was done pre-1990) your looking at 10-12% inflation. No wonder people aren't/can't save as much anymore.

Estimated M3--We don't know for sure because the Fed. doesn't clue in the little guy any more


GDP-as calculated by Shadowstats


CPI-as calculated by Shadowstats using the pre-clinton tech.


According to the independent analysis of Shadow stats by John Williams using the old techniques. The old formula's tell us we're in a negative GDP growth, and have been for 2 consecutive quarters.

Old formula=Recession
New formula=Sunshine Rainbow Lollipop Unicorn, You get the idea.

You dodging ?

Edit: Looks like Rockpuck and I are on the same page. Cheers mate.



[edit on 2-9-2008 by Blacknapkins]



posted on Sep, 2 2008 @ 12:31 PM
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post removed for serious violation of ATS Terms & Conditions




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