New ex-Christian who is lost in his own freedom and uncertainty.

reply to post by bruxfain

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Now hang on. Why do you demonise Eve for eating the forbidden fruit? She has probably done less evil than you have? There is another question. If Jesus said to cut off anything that makes you sin as it is better to enter hevan as an amputee than hell as a whole, why did God no remove the forbidden tree? Why did Adam and Eve not cut it down?

It was a tree of knowledge of good and evil. How is knowledge bad? And if going naked was the going thing, why have shame afterwards? It wasn't the tree of shame of genitalia. Look at nudist camps these days. They have far more knowledge than Adam and Eve ever did.

You say i'm just bashing the host. What host? I'm basing faulty belief systems.

I don't think the Bible demonizes Eve for eating the forbidden fruit it simply states a fact. Eve ate of the fruit of the tree first then gave her husband some fruit and he ate it. They were both punished for their actions, as was Lilith for instigating the event in the first place.

And you are correct, the historical record were it concerns Adam reveals him to have been one of the most violent, if not the most violent, men who has ever walked the earth.

Why did God not cut down the tree? Because he'd already agreed with Satan that the tree would stay in its place until the end. During which time Satan would be allowed to lure God's creation from him and at the End, which happens to be quickly approaching where God will remove it permanently once Satan's failure is complete.

It was not the Tree of just Knowledge, but of Knowledge of Good and Evil. A tree that taught how to become God.

You don't even know the host, so how can you say your are not attacking the host. All you know are popular, and often incorrect, interpretations of very serious literary work. What language have you invented? what science have you advanced? Who do you protect and nurture?

You'll find that there is a huge War going on right now to decide what is faulty and not faulty. Participate if you like; you have already lost. But you don't know enough of the world or how it works to realize this.

Why would God bargan with satan?! Godsaid he can't look at evil. But he can bargan with it?

"interpretations of very serious literary work"

well its hardly serious literary work is it? Serious fiction maybe.



"it simply states a fact"

How is this fact? It's an account that cannot be held as infalible, it was written by man after all. And whats more is that its just a creation myth.

"But you don't know enough of the world or how it works to realize this."

So should I just give up now should I? Abandon my hunt for truth. I'll point out that it was study and reasoning that brought me here in the first place and for most of this journey It was God who I thought was leading me here, if it was, then he just seems like he want to pretend he doesn't exist- so that part obviously could not have been God and if it's not, where is he?!



[breath..breath.. calm..]

[edit on 9/1/2008 by Good Wolf]

[edit on 9/1/2008 by Good Wolf]

reply to post by Good Wolf

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Hi Good Wolf.
Firstly, I can empathise with you to some degree, knowing how it can feel to have your basis of life unravel and fall apart around you. It is not easy, and kind words do little to really help.

The first reply you got was about reading a certain book, and I have to say it is a brilliant book to gain insight into what a Soul is capable of here and elsewhere. Given that, there is also no substitute for having your own experiences.

I was born into this world as a shaman/psychic counsel and was deemed weird for the early part of my life, and in this life so far I have been fortunate to have direct experiences with what most people think of as higher realms, and at 49, I continue to do so and teach others the simplified methods I used for myself.

Yes choosing to attach to a belief-system has its advantages, it also has what I call boundaries that will prevent you from experiencing anything outside of the allowed limits.

Being of a scientific bent, you will have come across the magnificent information available on some basic facts, 1. All 'things' in this Universe exist only as different vibrations of the One Energy, and 2. this One Energy has Awareness.

It is the awareness of this Universe, creating things to experience itself and what it is capable of. You, me and everyone else are extremely small portions of this Aware Energy, we are therefore God expressing itself as you and I, etc.

Given this, we can understand that we have existed for a very long time before our current awareness of life here. Therefore we will continue to exist after leaving this life.

Everlasting life, is a given. It cannot be destroyed, nor can it be Believed Away by anyone. Being small minded will likewise fail to create a reality.

So, you are a small and very active part of what we can call God. You exist because it exists and because it disseminated itself in order to bring you into reality to assist it in learning about itself.

Which brings me to this... you have no need to be concerned about your spiritual future, because you have only turned away from the man-made god and all it's fallible, human created beliefs with boundaires, control dramas, etc, and not from the real Creative Awareness that you are part of.

Therefore find something within to be happy about, enjoy the beauty around you and allow the path you chose as a Soul to open up for you. Do not judge yourself harshly or punish yourself for your actions.

See god in everything. It is the drunk man lying in the gutter, it is the trees, the wind, animals, and all the things you love and hate about life and the world you currently experience.

If you wonder why God allows certain things to happen, then I hope this will help....... if this massive awareness seeks to experience itself via creating things to use, then it must also be the energy behind ALL things, ALL events and every other realm beyond the earth. It does not make judgments, only humans do that.. it does not seek control, again, only humans do that.. and without it supporting the choices we humans make, no event could ever happen!

Therefore, events such as 9/11 happened because we humans chose a certain path, through our beliefs and power struggles, so the Creative Awareness provides the means for our choices to become reality. It cannot do otherwise, this is how the creative process works... an instigating thought sets things in motion and the Universe provides whatever is required to bring it into experience as reality.

Again, it is not judging the choices we make, nor does it really 'care' what we choose.. it's only concern is to know itself through all it's various parts.

In the end, we can say YES, you do already have everlasting life... just not always as a human being. Yes "God" exists but not in any form we humans have said it must be.

Be well, be strong, be happy.

There was a treaty signed; probably by trickery or something but either way IT was able to stay. God can be lied to.

Your critique of the Bible as not a serious literary work is confusing considering you'd be illiterate without it. Not that its done much good. It also happens to be the foundation of every other work of art or literature that's ever been produced in the Western world and all scientific inquiry.

Its a fact that Eve ate the fruit because some people just know more about it than you. The MAN who is the source of the Bible is Eve's husband, the King, I trust that he knows more about what happened that day than you do. Accept it or not. What you Believe is ultimately irrelevant.

No keep up your search for the truth, but it doesn't appear that you're going to like what you find out. What makes you think God didn't lead you here? Don't lose your faith so easily. Do you think that God desires for you to not be tested? From my own experience God wants you to be strong and confident and that involves being refined. A burning away of impurity. Jacob wrestled with God, why do you expect that your journey will be easier?

But since you are on this journey it seems that it would be good for you to first define what it is you think God is before you start talking about what it is you do and do not believe in.

reply to post by Tayesin

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That was probably the most reassuring thing I've ever read, Tayesin.

"Cosmos, The Great Experiment."

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I prefer to call "All Things" the Cosmos rather than the universe, cos universe rules out multiverse.



Still there is a leap needed to attach awareness to energy, because the vibrations could also be the universe ringing after the big bang.

[edit on 9/1/2008 by Good Wolf]

This is one small problem I have with Belief-systems, the dogmatic you are wrong and I am right scenario that is played out on every forum where people discuss bigger pictures.

What comes next I only know from working with my mentor who worked on deciphering the Sumerian Tablets for the British Museum over many years, at the same time Sitchin was... they had some great debates those two.

The Hebrews came out of Sumer with the first book of the Bible... a recognised fact. So where did this information come from originally for them to have had the initial Genesis material?

The answer is; the Sumerian legacy of genesis that was written down on clay tablets. Read it and you will see for yourself that the Hebrew version, and now our cultures belief, is only a heavily edited version of the orginal works. And I do mean heavily edited, so that some basic details and some word for word sentences are retained.

Today we have access to this information as we know now how to read the language and understand its meanings with some degree of clarity.

I put great stock in these writings because they describe scientific data that we modern humans have only recently discovered to be facts. And as my mentor has said, why throw it all out when up to now around 80% of its scientific information has been proven?

So, the concept of Eve and the Apple came at a much later date than the original information it was taken from. There was no human being called Eve who was the first woman, nor a single male called Adam.

The first experimental, and successful, version of a created worker Human Being was also what we now know to be Neanderthal like as it was short, stocky with great strength but little capacity to think around problems and so it became a useless thing for its purpose.

The second version was called Adamma, which is where the concept of Adam comes from. It was a successful creation and maintained a great relationship with the beings that had created its Kind using Genetic manipulation... and yes we are even told what was used to create it... Upright walking man, Homo Erectus, and the genes from the race making this worker.

This then, the Adamma, was the 2nd and most successful experiment, which is why today we modern humans are known as Homo Sapien Sapien, sapien x 2 meaning the 2nd version.

A female version came much later and only after those creator beings had complained about being used as incubators most of the time.. so another version was in order. And as is always the case with Hybrids, it could not replicate and more work was done to fix that little problem.

Then the male version had to be taught how to copulate with the female of its kind and not with the animals of the forest, as it had been doing... that was the original sin... beastiality.

And the Garden of Eden, is likewise a misnomer. E.Din, in Sumerian means, The First Place and using the accepted form of Pesher here, we can understand that this means the first place these beings (Anunnaki: Those who from heaven to earth came) landed on earth.

As we are told in the Nag Hammadi Library, these beings were "lesser gods", and they created the physical human form for their own purposes.

You will have to read and research more for yourselves if you want to know how the one who created us became known through time as the snake... one half of his insignia (Caduceus) that was used to denote the HOuse of Life in Africa where the genetic work was done.

If he exists, then he has brought me out of theism to the edge of atheism. But ultimately I think that any belief in God is a product of wishful thinking as that he can't (or at least refuses) to be proved, so he can't be there. And if he is there, he knows that faith in the absence of reason or logic is a recipe for disaster and false beliefs (cult).

So it comes down to him showing himself.


Now trying to make excuses and be an apologist for an errant document does not encline me to believe what your saying.

reply to post by Good Wolf

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I've heard your argument before as well and I am not buying it either. So there you have it. A person who knows and a person who knows nothing.

That's like saying "Well that's all very well and good but I'm not listening any more so there" only less provoking. If you've heard that argument before then offer a counter argument, otherwise, like you just did, you're just trying to subvert the argument. I'm not looking for excuses and cop-outs, I'm looking to solutions to genuine problems.

You fail to see the simple logic I layed out.
1) God is omnipotent
2) God creates us the way we are
With these 2 points, I conclude that God created us knowing that many of us would go to Hell. He knew this, and yet created us this way. If you can not see how truly evil this is, then you are lost.



First of all, I love the fact that your whole post has no bases, while mine contains logic. You could not refute the logic that I stated in my post, so you simply use more words. Look, I'm interested in the truth, whatever that truth may be. If God existed, I would be the first one to support that.
I'll give you a piece of advice. Know thy enemy. You've made some pretty tall claims about me when you have no idea who I am.
I do believe I exist (this is a given). And I do not believe my life is worthless. My life is what I make it, and I choose to make it the smartest way I know how. To use clear cut logic instead of blind assumption. You seem to be very good at assuming things. Ever wonder if that's why you believe in God?


My philosophy is to follow the truth. Show me that God is true, and I will follow him. You can not. If I say "Zeus exists!" a thousand times, it doesn't make it so.


Great. More assumptions based on your belief.
I dare you to use logic. You will not, because you are afraid of the conclusion it will bring you to.


... The only thing I am attacking is ignorance. If I am attacking the truth, then show me where I am wrong. I'm so tired of BS. Have you any idea how frusterating it can be when you speak logic to a person and they reply with recycled assumptions?



My actions are determined by my mind, which you say had a creator. How is it so difficult for you to understand? You are saying that God created me to make the wrong choice? Either that or he is not omnipotent. EITHER of which would contradict the very nature of God which you would claim to be true.

Respond back with logic, and not your belief. Put your belief aside for 1 damn second and use your brain. If God did create you, then surely he created you to use logic, so why do you shrug it aside?

[edit on 1-9-2008 by TruthParadox]

reply to post by bruxfain

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Let me have a go, aptly named Truth Paradox.

The problem with your kind, bruxfain, is that your logic system is reverse-science or backwards logic.

You start with the conclusions first and find facts and ideas to support it. I mean after all, you have committed to a preconceived doctrine and your beliefs don't have much lee-way.

"Oh, dinosaurs in under deep strata indicating that they walked 65 million years ago you say? Ah- well. um. well actually they walked with man only a few thousand years ago but um, there was a flood you see. yea that's right. and the currents covered them up in a conveniently consistent manner."

The root of creationism is based in taking genesis as the conclusion. Then working backwards from the conclusion to the proofs.

>Flip it around and see the value of science!







[edit on 9/2/2008 by Good Wolf]

reply to post by Good Wolf

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No. It points out the limits of our knowledge. It proves nothing. Your knowledge of the world around you is limited by your preconceived notions and experience, just like mine is.

I have surrendered my preconceived notions of who God is and what He should do to Him. Halleluiah! He reveals His truth to me through His Word, circumstance, and happenstance. I seek to discern His will for me and live within it through prayer, devotion, praise, and worship.



Praise God!

[edit on 2-9-2008 by Icarus Rising]

Dang I am sure trying to stay away from this post ..
I am really not wanting to get everyone all in a rile with my posts in here so I am going to try and abstain with my opinion on this mess ...
Hows it going Wolf ?

reply to post by Icarus Rising

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Well my heart bleeds for you. you seemed trapped in a logical ditch which keeps caving in when you try to climb out. Your also oblivious to that ditch.

Although if it makes you happy, enjoy your time in ditch. Gimme a u2u when you get board and decide to get out. i'll be here

______________________________________________________________
reply to post by Simplynoone

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Yea, nah, 's all right aye.

And yourself.

[edit on 9/2/2008 by Good Wolf]

reply to post by Good Wolf

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I am always great ty ..

Hey if you ever need me or want advice about anything if I can help I will ...I am here for ya ok .
Just holler


Promise you wont growl at me again ?LOL....
Keep searching but please dont get muddled in too much muck ok .
Search the word as you search and see the other sides ..then you will find the truth ......

I would like to say something about this page of conversation if I may .
Dont ever give up on searching for the truth ..
And my humble opinion ..the reason your in this situation is because he may have just taken you out of Organized Religion (to keep you from getting all sucked into man made doctrines etc) and sent you searching for a personal relationship with him instead of all that ritualistic mumbo jumbo collectively serving Christ that most of the Churchs of today do ..most in there have no idea of who Christ is ..nor do they know what it means to have a close personal relationship to him ..they only know the Jesus they are teaching and its not the one that I know most of the time ..It is another Jesus that will justify their wickedness (thats not the one I know ..he PURIFIES wickedness not Justfies them ) .... ..that is what is needed first before you can even move on..
(This is how he taught me so much by removing me from organized religion and offering me his personal attention ..so to speak ... ) was a rough road ...but interesting and I learned alot ...


God bless you in your quest ...

Sorry I know I said I was going to abstain but I couldnt help it lol ....




[edit on 2-9-2008 by Simplynoone]

reply to post by Simplynoone

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Thanks, I'm honored at your strangely out-of-the-blue gesture.



Sure, I'll try but when did I last growl at you?

Edit: Don't worry, I found it. Sorry about that, you just came across passive aggressive and I really don't like passive-aggressiveness [direct your attention to my avatar]

[edit on 9/2/2008 by Good Wolf]

1. Yes
2. Yes

At least this is what I believe now...last year I wasn't sure. I've worried and wondered over this for decades, now, and still don't know for certain; however, I believe the above answers to be as close to the truth as I can ascertain.

LOL no worries ...I didnt take it as you being mean ..your just careful and nothing wrong with that ..
I am so not passive or aggressive ..I promise ..
Talkative yes lol....eager to learn ..eager to tell what I think I know ..etc etc .
And curious ...
And I love people ....

Even people who are not so loveing ..in fact those people I want to be around the most because they need it the most I think ......people in our world can be so unloving and uncaring and that makes life suck dont it ?

I am sort of an old hippie type with the peace sign walking around hugging everyone and singing "what the world needs now is love" ....lol
I know sickening isnt it ...
Well thats a visual of me sort of ...lol ..

I am human though and I can be just as bad as anyone else ..I just do my very very best to contain that ugly side and dont even let her out of the cage ...because there is enough ugliness in this world ...and I hate it ...and I hate that side of me (the demons we all wrestle with inside of ourselves) ..so she (that ugly side )is dead to me at least as far as I am concerned ..