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New ex-Christian who is lost in his own freedom and uncertainty.

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posted on Nov, 15 2008 @ 02:32 AM
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Originally posted by tgidkp

i just looked the definition on that...whew! i am glad you gave such a vivid description. otherwise i would never have understood it. it is a beautiful way to look at things.


Thanks
I am glad I managed to get my belief across then. Cheers

Here is a quote, that sums it up nicely as well:

“Divinity is the enfolding and unfolding of everything that is. Divinity is in all things in such a way that all things are in Divinity.” ~ Nicolas of Cusa




posted on Nov, 15 2008 @ 02:50 AM
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reply to post by tgidkp
 


Oh well you may be interested in this thread:

www.abovetopsecret.com...


I think I must have dealt with this fear and morality thing before I was 13.



posted on Nov, 15 2008 @ 03:19 AM
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reply to post by Good Wolf
 


i hope that you have not misunderstood me. i think many if not most people have "dealt" with the mortality issue. what i mean to say is that people are often willing to commit to a certain view of the world when in-fact they have not truly come to terms with it. dogmatic christians are not the only ones to make this mistake.

i have a hard time believing that even a truly enlightened one would be able to cope with the darkness in its immensity.



posted on Nov, 15 2008 @ 03:53 AM
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Lucid Lunacy,

Are you me (ok, aside from the fact that we are all a part of the whole)? You make all of my arguments for me...

I love to see you show up in a thread, because I can know that you will most likely support my views.

That being said, I had no idea that there was a word to describe the majority of my spiritual beliefs...


Cheers!



posted on Nov, 15 2008 @ 04:06 AM
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reply to post by tgidkp
 


Well then I'm not exactly sure what your talking about.



posted on Nov, 15 2008 @ 04:22 AM
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reply to post by Good Wolf
 


i am talking about the fact that, so long as there are forces which are unacknowledged by yourself, yet control your behavior, you will never be free.

by becoming ex-christian, you escaped a portion of these forces. however, the further down the rabbit-hole you go, the more concealed these forces become.

you can chase yourself (nearly)forever down the rabbit hole.



posted on Nov, 15 2008 @ 04:31 AM
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reply to post by tgidkp
 


Eh. I gave up believing in free will when I was 10 when I pondered about determinism. It's even more clear cut now that I understand the moral/categorical imperative.

Free will is an illusion, but it's a practical illusion, since without the knowledge of the future, it can only appear random and free.

..Or maybe that's still not what your talking about.



posted on Nov, 15 2008 @ 01:28 PM
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reply to post by Good Wolf
 


Hi Good Wolf,

When I first joined this thread of yours was already massive. I had read several of the first pages of your thread, but never made it all the way through it.

Now, I just read the responses and then read some of the previous pages. So, if what I will be saying has been said before, my apologies.


Put it this way, if he wants me to believe in him, he's going to have to do something about it first. How about not hiding for once.


I read something somewhere that I found to be very true, which was that God put him/her/it-self in the very last place that him/her/it-self would be looked for and that was inside of us.

I know that it is frustrating to look for this elusive essence, and that the search for God "out there" can not only make a person doubt but also outright disbelieve.

In my experience, it wasn't until that moment of finding God within that I could also recognize the God 'out there'.

I do not wish to try to convert you to anything. Only sharing some of the little that I might know.

Best Wishes.



posted on Nov, 15 2008 @ 01:50 PM
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reply to post by L.I.B.
 


This is where the belief in a god who may not care about humans comes from.

If my eternal soul is in the balance, then they does God play this stupid game? It's gonna get people, many many people sent to hell.

Also, I'll never believe in a God that I have to convince myself without evidence, exists.

If God really loves us then it's contradictory it think that he would taunt us like he does.

just saying.



posted on Nov, 15 2008 @ 04:15 PM
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reply to post by Good Wolf
 

Good Wolf,

I do understand, truly.


This is where the belief in a god who may not care about humans comes from.

If my eternal soul is in the balance, then they does God play this stupid game? It's gonna get people, many many people sent to hell.

There's a lot to be said for the idea that religion is used for control and rather than God playing games, it is the people who are controlled and wish to control that are playing the games. Some are ignorant and don't know any better and then those who do know and could be of influence would lose their power.

I could go into a bunch of other stuff regarding the way "I think" it really is, but it's best for you to travel your path as you are and to eventually discover these things on your own. As I said, it's all within you already anyway.


Also, I'll never ....

Oh. I'm sorry. Thought I was talking to someone with an open mind.



...believe in a God that I have to convince myself without evidence, exists.

That is best.


If God really loves us then it's contradictory it think that he would taunt us like he does.

I don't really know what you mean by this, but you are right in the sense that a God purportedly defined as love would be any other way than better than all of our highest ideals.

Best Wishes



posted on Nov, 15 2008 @ 06:13 PM
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Hi Good Wolf,

I'm not really sure what your agenda is, because as some other posters have mentioned, at times you come across as if you think you know the answers to the questions you pose already.

I apologise if the thread has moved to new terrain from where it was after page 3, but there's no way I'm reading through 26 pages of this before posting, so forgive me if what I write is now redundant.

My biggest concern is why you are asking these questions. Much of the opening post is written in such a way that indicates you truly are lost, confused and looking for answers to these questions, however many of your subsequent posts are contradictory to this and these subsequent posts indicate to me that you have no interest in reading the answers that other posters are willing to write.

Whether there are posters who do truly know the answers to your questions, is irrelevant, because there is no answer they could possibly give that would convince you of anything contrary to what you already believe.

I'm a little disappointed actually, because I too have experienced much of what you describe in your opening post, and was looking forward to sharing some of this, but unfortunately your subsequent posts don't seem as receptive to this response as your opening post indicated to me.



posted on Nov, 15 2008 @ 06:34 PM
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reply to post by speaker
 


Well yes, I guess I have been asking loaded questions but that is part of rationalising people's input.


however many of your subsequent posts are contradictory to this and these subsequent posts indicate to me that you have no interest in reading the answers that other posters are willing to write.


It seems that way because most of the posts are things that I had already thought about in detail and have come to a conclusion on.

This thread was not a suggestion box, it was a very open debate.



posted on Nov, 16 2008 @ 01:18 AM
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If you look at it, I'm sure you'll find that a few of my posts contradict each other, I'm just throwin ideas out there.



posted on Nov, 22 2008 @ 11:44 PM
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meditate,eat healthy,love everyone no exceptions,always question your motives,its that simple .youd be surprised how many answers you get.



posted on Nov, 24 2008 @ 12:06 AM
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You, my good friend, are a very bright person.
From the perspective that I call mine, I feel that people could benefit from things as simple as thinking about what it is they're doing. That's exactly what people don't do, they act without thought, no awareness of what their actions do to others.



posted on Nov, 24 2008 @ 02:32 PM
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Originally posted by Good Wolf
I'm desperately looking for the answer to two questions:

1) Does a God(s) exist? and,
2) Is there an afterlife?




Given that you say you are an ex-Christian, these questions shouldn't matter, right?

Jung would often say that once you are raised in a specific religion, then your subconscious has already been formed by it, and you cannot really leave it behind, but you can learn to understand how you relate to it better.




I'll give you a preface:
I am exactly 19 1/2 and I have been an ex-Christian for roughly a month or two.

I had always been a christian and from about age 15 onward I was devout bible-bashing. But I had a mind[love] for science and philosophy which lead me to over think things. In biology I decided that genesis was a creation myth, but that raised a problem. If genesis was non-factual, how much more of the bible was non-factual?



Did no one ever describe the purpose of Allegory to you? Remember Aesops Fables? Guess what.. there are no talking Lions. But that doesn't detract from the wisdom contained in Aesops Fables.

Nor does the allegory found in the bible detract from the wisdom found there.




I couldn't be sure. I decided that ultimately the bible was unnecessary and that a strong personal relationship with God (not Jesus, I thought he was a significant preacher but not the One who I should pray to) was the important thing as he could teach me directly. I also recognised that, if the bible was infallible then it wasn't divinely inspired as God wouldn't do that and then not care to protect it from distortions and that sort.


Hrmm I think you mean "if the bible was fallible".

Once again, I point you to the fact that the Bible is a collection of allegories and experiences of many people who wrestled with their universe and the relationships that came of it. It can no more be infallible than a great an inspiring novel.





Then things got shaky for me when 6 months ago I started hearing a voice in my head (which I later attributed to God) and it taught me many lesions and wonderful messages.



Heh.. I hope it didn't give you lesions :-)

I know you meant lessons, and so I would say you research these voices in all of the different traditions. Some call it channeling, other's call it the communication with ones Holy Guardian Angel, others still refer to it as talking to God. Personally, I have found it to be the formation of a relationship with your subconsious mind. More than likely spurred on by the fracture you created in your mind when you decided to reject that which you had embraced so strongly before.

Work with it.. you'll be surprised what can happen.





Acting upon the voice, I applied the ideas to a troublesome relationship I had. A friend of my friend (lets call him Jason) hated me and let me know it. 2 months after the voice started, Jason respected me, and we became close, he confided in me and trusted me for advice.



There ya go. Yep when you listen to the subconcious mind it can be a very powerful experience.
Yeah,




The voice brought a lot of life and love to me but it made me critical of my Church because of the overwhelming hipocrisy, double standars, and most of all, apathy. I stopped going and sought to follow what I called "pure christianity" which entailed looking inward to where I could hear God and seeking understanding.





Well, I would say that you are in the process of learning your own rules.




...Then I watched Zeitgiest. At first it was so shocking I was unable to watch it as the ramifications of it being true to to painful to consider. I eventually sat through it and for its' significance, needed to know more.

I was glad to learn that revelation talked in code about Nero and rome. Phew!!


Zeitgeist isn't infallible, as I found out, but the fact alone that there was no evidence supporting the christian messiah ever existing threw me into a hunt to prove/debunk christian theology.



Don't be disctracted by anything in the world at this point.

Do as Jesus did... remove yourself from the world. Turn off the internet, the TV, your friends, and go to a retreat where you can be in silence with only your mind for a while.




I have found a lot and promptly dropped my religion all together.
My christian friends deal with me with caution after one fundamentalist had a go at me and I rendered him literally speechless.

Im so fresh out of the church and so immature in my belief system that I don't know what's what and frankly I'm scared...



Very understandbale... that's why I recommend you take some time to just be by yourself and allow yourself to find out what is what for you.




I realise that there is a deep seeded desire for life to have meaning and for there to be an afterlife and for 'God' to love us but it all just appears to be derived from an instinctual fear of death.

Do we believe in God because we need there to be an afterlife?!



Many of us do. Sometimes it's because we need a sense of Universal Meaning. The concept that the Universe is ultimately indifferent is a tough pill to swallow with you are partly driven by, and owe lots of your survival to your ego.







The idea that God does not exist and that there is nothing after death terrifies me, as you would expect, and for the first real time in my life I am afraid of death.



It terrifies you because you have yet to feel your own authority. When you are making your own way in the world and have to stare surivival in the face you may come to a different conclusion.

Keep in mind, that even Jesus said that the Kingdom of God is inside of us and here at hand. Look for the afterlife here. Look for it as being after you have woken up.

Let the dead bury the dead, and embrace life.





To all those atheists, agnostics and ex-christians; how do you reconcile these problems in yourselves?

[edit on 8/31/2008 by Good Wolf]



For me personally, it's a journey. I have had to learn to balance the interpretration of pattern (order) with the existence of dissonance (chaos).

It was a long journey for me, but in the end, I realized that the vast majority of what I did was out of a sense of insecurity. Learn how to find that security in yourself so that it does not depend on anyone or any concept. Simply being.

Here is a good exercise.


Sit on the ground, not a floor, but the ground outside. Close your eyes, and focus on the reality of three things,

The Vast Sky above you, it's been here for eons
The Immense Earth Below you which has been here for eons to

And yourself, sitting peaceful inbetween both of these ancient aspects of your world.


Good luck.



[edit on 24-11-2008 by HunkaHunka]



posted on Nov, 24 2008 @ 06:09 PM
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reply to post by HunkaHunka
 


I made the op a while back now, and it isn't current anymore. I decided to close my mind to possibility outside of the idea that there is no God, so that I could get used to a meaningless existence. After a few months I had managed that and now I'm on the fence with an open mind. I don't feel I have a vested interested in either reality.

At this point I'm waiting on God to show, I won't believe without evidence beyond reasonable doubt.



posted on Nov, 24 2008 @ 06:13 PM
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Originally posted by WatchNLearn
Hi Good Wolf and congratulations on cutting the ties and embracing the truth!

Please try and find this book as it will answer all your questions and more, and also give you peace of mind.

"Journey of Souls" by Michael Newton, Ph.D (ISBN: 1-56718-485-5)

Good luck!
Better perhaps to embrace what you can live for, hell were all going to die any way...



posted on Nov, 24 2008 @ 06:18 PM
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Originally posted by Good Wolf
reply to post by Amaterasu
 


While it's not exactly how I'd put it, your concept of God is my theory of "If he exists then this is his form and function"

 

reply to post by Ian McLean
 
I really like you of God folding and being form and function.

No I get what your saying. I guess I'm asking for clear-cut 'reasoning' for or against God.

If you said "God exists" I'd say "Do you reasonably believe and why?"

I fear all roads lead to Rome which in this case is atheism.



posted on Nov, 24 2008 @ 06:41 PM
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Originally posted by arbiture

Originally posted by Good Wolf
reply to post by Amaterasu
 


While it's not exactly how I'd put it, your concept of God is my theory of "If he exists then this is his form and function"

 

reply to post by Ian McLean
 
I really like you of God folding and being form and function.

No I get what your saying. I guess I'm asking for clear-cut 'reasoning' for or against God.

If you said "God exists" I'd say "Do you reasonably believe and why?"

I fear all roads lead to Rome which in this case is atheism.

Twice in my life I was very close to death, once my heart stopped for 8 1/2 minutes, I was lucky they revived me in time. I was O2 deprived long enough to have a rather nasty stroke, and took weeks in ICU to figure out what planet I was on. (ours by the way). I remember almost nothing, but a sense of great peace, love, and as if all was revealed. I would hope and believe this was not just the shock and flood of endorphins. But I know people like my Mom who died, came back, during major surgery. She saw herself and described the room, floor, OR, everything with total accuracy. To be quite honest, it takes a whole lot of "proof", verifiable of course to convince me of anything. There are those who believe religion is a psychological delusion to help us cope with the unbearable. It may be, but I don't believe that.

Why to I feel this is not everything? Whats the harm? After all, if there is an after life, if God, (or whom/what ever) exists, I believe you don't have to believe if you try to be a decent person. I believe She believes in you...





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