Using Government databases to verify age on regular websites *warning*

reply to post by pieman

what business of the governments is it if people wish to provide false detail to private companies?

You have just effectively lost all creditability, good job.

Because it is FRAUD to provide false information. You can not provide false information to utility or insurance companies for legal reasons. You can not provide false information to potential employers for legal reasons.

With that said, who the hell are you to demand the right to be a little fake liar to other people for your own paranoid delusional gains? You want to lie and cheat the systems and complain about those systems becoming harsher and harsher? It's people like you who we have to thank for this, you very people who turn around and bitch about it. Ridiculous!

reply to post by sirnex


providing false information to a movie trailer. If that constitutes punishable fraud that you would actually stand behind and like to see prosecuted, then we are on opposite sides of many more issues than just privacy, my friend.

Originally posted by sirnex
With that said, who the hell are you to demand the right to be a little fake liar to other people for your own paranoid delusional gains? You want to lie and cheat the systems and complain about those systems becoming harsher and harsher? It's people like you who we have to thank for this, you very people who turn around and bitch about it. Ridiculous!

You must receive an unimaginable amount of junk mail!

[edit on 1-9-2008 by scientist]

Originally posted by Astyanax
reply to post by sirnex

 

Unless your doing something illegal, then it doesn't really affect you.

Is this a joke, or are you deliberately trying to provoke people?

That line has been used so many times in history by tyrants and despots to justify their repressive laws and behaviour, it has become a cliche. It is usually stated in this form:

If you have done nothing wrong you have nothing to fear

It's hysterical to see someone spouting it on ATS. I mean, you are joking, right? You don't have a swastika armband stashed in the back of your wardrobe or anything like that?

That's right.. It was said just a day or so ago by a Pakistani minister on those women being buried alive because they wanted to choose their own husbands: "If you are morally righteous you have nothing to fear" or words to that effect.

I am not in favor of the unconstitutional government, not at all. But if you would think about this logically, you would realize you don't have a leg to stand on for SO many reasons. You would better serve your time finding somewhere that you DO have a valid complaint and taking action in that area (instead of merely complaining about it).

Let me RE-LIST some of the reasons why you don't have a valid complaint. I'll try to go slow and put this on a level that even my 7 year old son can understand.


1. Kids cannot just walk into a strip joint. People are carded at the door. This is NOT to protect the kids from the content, but to protect the joint from lawsuits and/or being charged with catering to minors.

~ NO ... DIFFERENT ... FOR ... SITES ... ONLINE!! They have to protect their site and themselves.


2. Alright, I will lower my logical capabilities here for a moment and pretend that this is a conspiracy against you, the person entering your information to view their content.

~ No one is FORCING you to enter your information. THEN AND ONLY THEN would you have a valid complaint. As it stands, if you want to view their content, their rule is... enter your info for validation purposes and you are free to watch the content displayed OR (and I'll try to really slow this part down)...

I F... Y O U.. D O N T.. L I K E... T H E.. W A Y.. T H E Y ... H A V E... I T... S E T... U P, Y O U... A R E... F R E E... T O... N O T... V I E W... T H U S... N E G A T I N G.... T H E I R... N E E D... F O R... Y O U R.... I N F O.

3. What need is it of the governments? Who the hell cares? You are viewing this content on the WWW.

In other words, you are basically bringing the world into your home and you have to play by their rules or simple solution, don't be online. Just because you are in your home doesn't mean they should be subjected to the rules of your home.

Even if YOU feel they have NO right to demand information from you to view their content, YOU don't have the right to tell THEM how to run their site.

Get your own site and run it your way.

You people are missing the point of freedom. You say you are not free and being tracked because of THEM, when no one is holding a gun to your head forcing you to enter the information to view the content.

YOU ARE STILL FREE BUT YOU ARE WASTING THAT FREEDOM BY TRYING TO GET THEM TO CONFORM TO YOU, in essence making YOU the bully!! *gasps*

More valid and productive ways to exercise your rights as a human being:

a) don't do anything that you feel infringes on your rights as a human being, but don't force others to do things YOUR way either .. ie don't view their content if you feel that entering your ID is an infringement on your rights, bc not all of us see it that way.

The most that you can achieve in getting your way is having the sites shut down and that honestly is infringing on other ppl's rights to make you feel better.


b) focus more of your efforts on the truly unconstitutional acts taking place, for instance income taxes. Quit paying them. THAT'LL make more of statement for your rights than this thread will


c) Study, learn, absorb, and educate yourself on what the ORIGINAL constitution stood for and the wise intent the framers of said document had in writing it. I guarantee that you don't truly understand it based on the complaints cited in this thread.


d) Once educated on the document that is of great importance to this country, educate others in a more productive manner. Complaining in the selfish spoiled way that has been done on this thread only serves to turn others off to the importance and wise words that were given to us by those who shaped this country from the beginning.


And seriously, grow up already. I tell my boys often that they will have more rights in my household when they show me they can be responsible with those rights. Until then, their rights are in my hands and I call the shots. I would be a dumb arse if I just let them do whatever they wanted simply because they are alive. They have to earn those rights by showing they can be smart in exercising those rights.




[edit on 1-9-2008 by justamomma]

reply to post by justamomma


the condescension and implied insults are not warranted.

the Op is about how this kind of verification can lead to tracking of your online activities. and could also be used to restrict access to perfectly legal websites that do not agree with the restricters(potentially some government agency) views. i agree the best way to stop it is to not use sites that try this verification technique and to warn others away from such sites. there are plenty of other verification techniques that do the same thing as you say "protect the company from lawsuits". in fact ats has one if i remember correctly from my signup way back when. it works perfectly fine and doesn't require that you give ats your name as it appears on your drivers' license and your zipcode. when you get right down to it, even porn sites have them. they're legally protected from some 15 year old circumventing them and then their parent's suing the site.

edit to add, telling people to grow up for discussing a disturbing verification technique that could lead to what basically amounts to spying is hardly conducive to reasoned debate. perhaps you should take a step back and cool off a little. we're allowed to debate these things...without your permission or condescension.

[edit on 1-9-2008 by optimus primal]

Any one going to that page is now being traced.
What an Illuminati trick.
How many pages did you ever see that question.

Its a bogus page and a tracking device without even entering.

But what happened when you clicked either button?
A government id data base does not exists, so they lied.

Pick a name, go on a search for the name and get public
information id.

If they said that I might think their legit.

reply to post by optimus primal


It still doesn't negate the fact that the site in question has the right to validate the viewer in any way they deem fit.

Yes, I am upset that ppl are complaining that they don't have freedom when let's be honest, what they are REALLY complaining about is they don't want to comply to the methods that site has set up but still want to view the content.

Their complaint is ANTI FREEDOM. They are imposing what they deem "the right way to run things" onto someone else's creation. It is wrong. And it is because of this type of attitude that we really WILL lose our freedoms.

reply to post by justamomma


they do indeed have the right to validate their viewers, and we have a right not to partake in that validation AND to discuss why we dont like it and think it's wrong. and in a way it is about freedom. the freedom of information. the internet is the ultimate source of information. sure we could get a library card and check out books on all kinds of subjects, but that also means that every book you check out is logged in their system. and as we all know the patriot act gives the government the right to that information. so we can instead choose to buy those books with cash, a transaction that is at most almost impossible to trace back to an individual. the point is if this kind of verification becomes predominant(if is the keyword here, this site is about speculation after all) the ability of a government agency to see everything you've done online without a warrant as is currently the policy will become reality. and isn't that why so many are against many parts of the patriot act? domestic spying? because make no mistake that is what a warrantless screening of your online activities is.

it's pretty rude to decry our actions discussing this new technique when i can probably with 85% assurance say you've discussed something equally specualtive on this site yourself. should we bombard you in those threads calling you childish and claiming you're the reason we are losing freedoms? hardly.
myself and at least three to four others have explained why this is a big deal. if you dont agree fine. but to continue in your avenue of attack without contribution is quite rude and i'd thank you to keep the namecalling(or implied namecalling) out of a topic that some of us are interested in. in fact i think that very thing is against the t&c's

Originally posted by justamomma
Yes, I am upset that ppl are complaining that they don't have freedom when let's be honest, what they are REALLY complaining about is they don't want to comply to the methods that site has set up but still want to view the content.

I could care less about the content. Again, I can circumnavigate just about any roadblock you put in front of me (when it comes to the internet). I see i as a challenge. But if you want to get to what we're "complaining" about... it's a complaint against your apathy, and reluctance to comprehend the ramifications of accepting this type of verification so nonchalantly - but furthermore, it has been your manner in doing so. The condescending attitude that has been mentioned a few times now is not helping either.

Point being, your argument against privacy for security is still not up to par, so please bring another to the table if you want to debate this further.

My god the arrogance of the whiners is so annoying!

You are already bring logged and tracked, your privacy has already been given away freely by yourself unless you have committed fraud applying for a job or doing your taxes, your freedom as an adult for viewing adult content hasn't been infringed upon because you as an adult still have access to the content, it's the kids who don't unless they commit fraud themselves which is already a pre-existing law and moot against any verification system despite its implementation.

Your argument against the system based on it being verified against a *gasp* government database (evil bastards!) is hypocritical, flawed, and devoid of any logic whatsoever. It is an infantile argument that one would expect from a child whining about having a harder time getting into things they are already not allowed into. Like I said, let's give the damn kids free reign in a strip joint and make everyone happy! How dare we infringe on a ten year olds freedom to smoke, drink and slip a few fivers down some lace panties! ITS JUST NOT RIGHT IS IT!

reply to post by sirnex


i've already responded to your opinion about private data and the private sector regarding jobs and banking and the like.

and i'm not quite sure how many times people in this thread have to tell you that this isn't about "adult content".

I'll also remind you sir of what i previously reminded justamomma, condescension and namecalling is not welcome here. calling us whiners over and over again isn't conducive to debate. and as far as i know a violation of the t&c. we've heard your opinion and disagreed with you(i'm speaking for myself and at least three others) and i for one am no longer going to respond to your attacks since you obviously dont feel like contributing anything to this conversation more than "you're all whiners and children". also if you keep derailing the thread back into "adult content" topic when this is clearly not what the Op is about and continue with the name calling, i'm going to have to send a u2u to a mod. it's rediculously rude and hardly the position of reasoned debate.

Originally posted by scientist

Originally posted by justamomma
Yes, I am upset that ppl are complaining that they don't have freedom when let's be honest, what they are REALLY complaining about is they don't want to comply to the methods that site has set up but still want to view the content.

I could care less about the content. Again, I can circumnavigate just about any roadblock you put in front of me (when it comes to the internet). I see i as a challenge. But if you want to get to what we're "complaining" about... it's a complaint against your apathy, and reluctance to comprehend the ramifications of accepting this type of verification so nonchalantly - but furthermore, it has been your manner in doing so. The condescending attitude that has been mentioned a few times now is not helping either.

Point being, your argument against privacy for security is still not up to par, so please bring another to the table if you want to debate this further.

You GREATLY distort my lack of sympathy to your personal complaint as a lack of apathy toward the direction this country is headed. You are wrong and uninformed.

You make assumptions that show your only concern is how it is affecting YOU!! Have you not read my posts elsewhere?

And lets not lie, OP.. YOU did not start this thread because you felt *I* was apethetic. Go back and read your op. You started this thread bc you didn't like how someone had their site set up. That is btw them and the government if they want to take it up with them. Get your own site and then you can go up against the government if they try to regulate it in a way that is not up to your standards.

I AM MORE CONCERNED WITH REAL VIOLATIONS OF THE CONSTITUTION.

The voting system.. NO ONE ever talks (despite my ability to bring it up numerous times on this board) about the blatant violations that have been made to disregard the constitution in our voting process.

What about the fact that the pledge of allegience was imbedded into our public schools to ensure that we would be well on our way to a socialist state despite the fact that it violates what the constitution stood for. It was written in 1892 by a socialist baptist pastor and it wasn't forced upon our school children until (I believe, but at least am close) 1940 and is very much in running parallel to the socialism of Rome and the communist practices of hitler's germany (hmm.. and how odd that it was imposed during the same time period).


No one cares and in fact they get annoyed when I try to correct their misunderstanding that they have been brainwashed into believing that we are a democracy when really we are a constitutional republic... being a form of democracy, yes, but VERY FAR from what a pure democracy is which is what our children and apparently most of the adults have been taught.


No one cares to look at the fact that the founding fathers didn't overthrow the government by aggression, but rather they did what they could to become self sufficient AWAY from the government (SACRIFICING PERSONAL COMFORTS IN ORDER TO DO SO, MIND YOU *ding ding ding* relevant to your thread) and only fought off the government when the government CAME AFTER THEM!!


No one cares that freedom is a state of mind, not words on a piece of paper and thus they render themselves useless in their mindless complaints about how the world isn't conforming to THEM.

I could go on and on with the things I see ALL OVER THIS board that make me ANYTHING BUT apathetic. They make me angry and pissed... not at the government but at the blatant ignorance and disregard for the intent the framers of our constitution had when giving us what they did.

Your concern for what you perceive as apathy is nothing but you choosing to remain in your ignorance, thus contributing to the very thing that you claim to detest.. the taking away of our freedoms.

I am free. That site is free. You are free. This I have no apathy about thus the reason I even bother replying to try and wake you up to THE VERY IMPORTANT piece of the puzzle YOU are missing.

Originally posted by justamomma

Originally posted by scientist

Originally posted by justamomma
Yes, I am upset that ppl are complaining that they don't have freedom when let's be honest, what they are REALLY complaining about is they don't want to comply to the methods that site has set up but still want to view the content.

You GREATLY distort my lack of sympathy to your personal complaint as a lack of apathy toward the direction this country is headed. You are wrong and uninformed.

You make assumptions that show your only concern is how it is affecting YOU!! Have you not read my posts elsewhere?

And lets not lie, OP.. YOU did not start this thread because you felt *I* was apethetic. Go back and read your op. You started this thread bc you didn't like how someone had their site set up. That is btw them and the government if they want to take it up with them. Get your own site and then you can go up against the government if they try to regulate it in a way that is not up to your standards.

I AM MORE CONCERNED WITH REAL VIOLATIONS OF THE CONSTITUTION.


Your concern for what you perceive as apathy is nothing but you choosing to remain in your ignorance, thus contributing to the very thing that you claim to detest.. the taking away of our freedoms.

I am free. That site is free. You are free. This I have no apathy about thus the reason I even bother replying to try and wake you up to THE VERY IMPORTANT piece of the puzzle YOU are missing.

you're not concerned about a potential avenue for domestic spying? lets fact it, the internet is going to be an even larger and totally necessary part of everyday life from work to school to entertainment in less than twenty years. so unless you like having someone looking over your shoulder every minute of every day logging exactly what you do, what you look at, what you listen to, this is something that greatly concerns you and all of us.


in regards to lack of response to your views on government following the constitution, what does that have to do with this topic? this is about potential for massive abuse by those in power with such a system. not about the constitution.

and making a website and running it without this verification technique is your answer to the Op? let's try a thought excercise, say the government thinks "what the crap?! that's an awesome idea! we'll be able to track everything everyone does on the internet without having to do anything other than log what websites this verification technique connect to ours!" so they make it mandatory for all internet sites with anything above pg rating. now, unless you want to learn about the planets or watch a disney movie everything you do will be recorded, essentially domestic spying. so you say screw that i'll make my own website without this verification and stick it to the man! uh oh....the government doesn't like that" send her to jail! the criminal!"

this is a potential avenue this new technique can take. what we're discussing in this thread is speculative, granted, but that's what this website is about and honestly saying that we're the problem and that there are more important things to talk about that matter to you is hardly relevant to this topic.

honestly, start a thread about constitutional infractions by the government or link me to one you've started, i'll go read it and post in it, cause i'm concerned about that as well. but that and your frustration over it has nothing to do with this topic.

edit to add: yeah i know this quote i did of you justamomma is terrible, it was worse before, dunno what i did but it got screwed so i'm gonna leave it like it is instead of futzin with it for an hour

[edit on 1-9-2008 by optimus primal]

so unless you like having someone looking over your shoulder every minute of every day logging exactly what you do, what you look at, what you listen to, this is something that greatly concerns you and all of us.

If you think this isn't already being done then you are just plain ignorant. It's not even done by just the government alone, it's also done by private companies. It's done by this website. Its done everytime you freely hand out your information. It's done just by visiting a damn website for crying outloud! Your arguments against this particular implementation based on it being verified against a government database is just so sickening and ridiculous. You people ALREADY HAND THIS INFORMATION OUT and you are already being tracked on a daily basis. There is no such thing as true freedom, there never has been and never will be. Your hatred for everything government is what the issue is here and it is a sad sad sad argument. You can thank those evil bastards in Washington for fighting to allow people to feel protected, safe and free. Sure, you do get your corrupt PEOPLE here and there, but those are INDIVIDUALS and not the WHOLE GOVERNMENT. The government doesn't give two turds about you, you aren't anything of importance to them until the time you make yourself a threat to society. If you want to break laws, you are a threat, and we as society just don't want your kind around. Sorry, we like having things put in place against people who wish to circumvent OUR freedom.

reply to post by sirnex


excuse me sirnex, i dont hate the government. i have never said i do. you're assuming much there. i dont like being spied upon. and i take as much action to guard against it in the forms you speak of as i can. as for this website specifically, ats does not know my real name, or my address, at most they know my email. that information is kept at my isp. ats would need a warrant from an agency, governmental or state to get it. that's a protection against invasion of privacy. dont believe me ask SO or springer. saying "if you're not doing anything wrong you have nothin to worry about" is ignorant itself. as has been pointed out it is a favorite saying of dictators and facist governments.

Scientist, and other eloquent supporters of the obvious. PLEASE stop responding to Sirnex. His responses are rude , insulting, baiting and sophomoric. He/she/it is simply engaging in mental masturbation . Responsible, thoughtful members are providing lubrication for his prattle. This doesn't contribute to the focus of the OP's point, so I apologize and will not post to this thread again. I learn more when I observe.

reply to post by Xwino


ya know....you're absolutely right. i had already said i wasn't going to reply to him anymore. all i can say is...i'm human and when an attack is directed at me i respond i'll try better to ignore trolls.

reply to post by optimus primal


I used to think the way you do. Let's take this site for example. I am a mouthy Irish blooded texan. I am often EXTREMELY blunt to the point where it is, rightly so, considered uncivil. For instance, my honest opinion of the majority of posts written out here is that they are written by retarded babies who can't think for themselves and call the shots in their own life.

That is most likely against T&C.. in which case, I know that I am subject to whatever reprimands that will bring about. I could have avoided the reprimand by not posting it thus negating the "getting in trouble factor." In this case, I felt it worth it to take the chance. I am on THEIR site and thus THEIR rules are enforced regardless of how I feel about it.

I just exercised personal freedom, but I would be an idiot not to realize that their may be consequences to exercising that freedom. Does that make the owners and mods here evil? haha no! They have their reasons.

That site felt they had their reasons for implementing their validation process. That is their right and their site and it is not your call to say they can't. If you want to view their content, then you will comply OR you will find an illegal way to go about it if that content is so important to you to view, but you have to be willing to accept the consequences even if you feel they are unfair to your personal rights OR just don't view the content.

You have plenty of choice there. In my case, I decided saying the truth about how I view your idiotic ramblings was worth taking the hit in hopes that SOMEONE will GET THE POINT.



[edit on 1-9-2008 by justamomma]

reply to post by justamomma


indeed it is their right to do so, but it's also our right to say hey this can lead to some very iffy circumstances that i dont agree with, and debate it here. and it's also our right not to partake in their services, which i for one am not going to. we're talking in this thread about the potential for abuse and how it will affect us all and why it's a bad thing. not about their right to do their site as they want, i for one dont disagree with that being their right, just the potential for abuse this can lead to. i dont understand why this keeps being brought back to them having the right to use this technique on their site. as that's not what we're talking about.

good for them they have a new verification technique that's just as fallible as any other. what we're worried about is, if this was used in conjunction with a government database they basically know everything you do without having to go through the justice system to do so, as is currently the law. and make no mistake the moment you're born you're put in the census system which is a database on all people living in this country.

i repeat this is not about them having the right to put this technique on their website, i wont argue against that. i personally wont use any website that requires that much detail about me to access it. this is about the potential for abuse if combined with government databases.


edit to add: i'd like for you to point out where i've rambled or been idiotic, as you were replying directly to me. and i'd also like to point out that i find that uncalled for and rude as i've yet to personally attack you with such.

[edit on 1-9-2008 by optimus primal]

Ok, I give up. You people are more about paranoia than you are about common sense.

I still say we stop infringing on the rights of ten year old boys who want to smoke, drink and slip fivers down lace panties all night. If one "freedom" is wrong, then they all must be wrong by the very nature of what true freedom is. Yet, we as members of society never had true freedom, nor have we ever had true privacy. Not since the birth of the first tribes and civilizations. Even further back than that really.

You have no idea what true freedom and privacy is because you have never had it and you never will. You are not free to do whatever the hell you want. You are not free to lie to people for your own personal gains. If you don't like it, then get the hell out of society, because as a member of any society THAT IS HOW IT IS. Get used to it, once you kids are out of school and functional members of society, you'll understand. Trust me. Mommy and daddy are not mean and neither is the government.