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Using Government databases to verify age on regular websites *warning*

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posted on Sep, 1 2008 @ 03:03 PM
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reply to post by AGENT_T
 


yeah, i remember before the net, using a pen to get all the tape back in the cassette, reading funny paper things called books and believing that i was more likely to meet a grey than someone else who could also see the potential danger the governments of the world posed.


[edit on 1-9-2008 by pieman]




posted on Sep, 1 2008 @ 03:18 PM
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reply to post by pieman
 


78's haha

Played on a gram-o-phone.

Not quite that bad,but I had quite a book collection by the time I was 8,Richard Lewis,Guy N Smith.Stephen King.

All of those were 'restricted' in my local library.But a sneaky wander around the adult section and Mom used to put them in her selections for the week too.


Point is.. that would be classed as 'illegal activity' these days (and bad parenting)..Other people deciding what's best for you?..Stuff em.

I had the most advanced reading age of my school and I put it down to trying a wider range of reading material..
Other kids were on Peter,Jane and Spot.. I was reading Spiders,Rats..The Lair.The Djinn etc.


As far as the sites who choose to take part in these GOV ID trials.. Well they can keep whatever they're peddling.
I choose to exercise my freedom of choice not to support them.

They're NOT improving security or protecting kids..just criminalising them..for trivial matters.
They're inventing new crime classifications.

(And yeah.. I found my Dad's stash of Nudey books too after months of hunting when parents were out..
So sue me..
)



posted on Sep, 1 2008 @ 03:23 PM
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It is indeed troubling OP. As stated it's immensely easy to fool any age verification tool by use of relative or even close friends' information. Any government agency trying to view my internet activity records should have to go through the hoops already established to do so(i.e. subpoena isp for records). With this kind of system they already have all the information and can use/misuse/make up whatever they want. that's not how our justice systems works...leastways not that i know of. And be assured fellow posters that's what this type of system is leading up to. It's a sad day indeed.



posted on Sep, 1 2008 @ 03:37 PM
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Lol, what a stupid security feature. I don't know anyone who isn't aware of thier parents info. Not old enough to enter?, just add in mom or dads info. Bingo you are in. It sounds more like some data mining operation than a security feature to keep minors out.



posted on Sep, 1 2008 @ 03:41 PM
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reply to post by AGENT_T
 





They're NOT improving security or protecting kids..just criminalising them..for trivial matters.


Noooo, they are not criminalizing them. Not once have any of you pointed out the problem with an age verification system from an adult perspective.

1: You already give this information out freely
2: "they" already have this information regardless of you giving it out
3: Age verification systems that didn't check against government databases for validation have been around for years.

Where this infringes on privacy and freedom is beyond me and not a single one of you can bother to point that out. You give away the information and they already have it and your activity is already logged, so where is the privacy issue? As long as you are of the proper age, where is the freedom issue?

They are not criminalizing the kids for anything unless the kids are willing to commit the crimes that are already in place. It is already illegal for a kid to view adult content and it is already illegal to steal a persons identity. There is no new classifications or criminalization efforts. You people are either kids or just have some insane hatred for the very institution that protects this country so you can have freedoms.

There are dozens of different age verification systems out there, is this one somehow worse because it validates against a government database? Is it just because you don't like the government? How is this particular implementation any worse than verification systems that validate against your credit card or bank accounts? This isn't a new scary trend, it's been around for years, just not this particular implementation.



posted on Sep, 1 2008 @ 03:49 PM
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reply to post by sirnex
 


It's not about the government already knowing your name and date of birth. it's the fact that they can use this to keep tabs on what you're doing online. The more sites that implement it, the easier it is for them. want to watch a rated R trailer? enter your real name and date of birth! (site checks against government data they already have on your name and birthday and location) they then know, from that websites verification process that you accessed that site.

It's the potential for abuse we're discussing here. The government,whatever agency, has no business knowing what i access on the internet. If it's illegal they can go through the proper courts to get a warrant for the isp's information on my surfing.

i believe this has been explained at least three times prior.....



posted on Sep, 1 2008 @ 03:57 PM
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Originally posted by sirnex
reply to post by AGENT_T
 
Not once have any of you pointed out the problem with an age verification system from an adult perspective.
have you got me on ignore or what?

1: no, i don't, you might but i don't.
2: what they don't have is a way to link this information easily to a personality profile, this sytem gives them that oppertunity.
3: which ones?


You give away the information and they already have it and your activity is already logged, so where is the privacy issue? As long as you are of the proper age, where is the freedom issue?
the privacy issues are in the fact that the information is unsecured when sent and unsecured when retrieved as is the query sent to the government data-base. the freedom issue is in the potential for the government to exploit this to build track your use of the internet easily.


You people are either kids or just have some insane hatred for the very institution that protects this country so you can have freedoms.
can you expand on the reference you made to the institution that protects the country? are you refering to the government as a whole or a particular element of it?


There are dozens of different age verification systems out there, is this one somehow worse because it validates against a government database?
yes, why are the government getting involved, who mandated it, who authorised it, why.

How is this particular implementation any worse than verification systems that validate against your credit card or bank accounts?
banks require the customer to have faith in their security in order for them to turn a profit, therefore i trust the bank to be secure.

This isn't a new scary trend, it's been around for years, just not this particular implementation.
in what way, outline for me the government involvement in age security for websites to date.



posted on Sep, 1 2008 @ 03:58 PM
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Originally posted by sirnex
They are not criminalizing the kids for anything unless the kids are willing to commit the crimes that are already in place. It is already illegal for a kid to view adult content and it is already illegal to steal a persons identity.

There is no new classifications or criminalization efforts. You people are either kids or just have some insane hatred for the very institution that protects this country so you can have freedoms.


Ok Once more,just for you.

Yeah it's a crime for kids to look at 'adult sites'..But fairly trivial.. You can put in a false name or whatever to get you in.. THIS IS NOT ID FRAUD.

What they are requiring of you now is to enter a genuine ID..a false/made up one won't cut it.. Therefore you have to enter a REAL ID.

This then takes it legally into the realm of ID FRAUD.

See the difference?.This is a new classification.

You don't even have to talk about sex sites.. (which SHOULD be well protected)..Just adult theme sites..

Charged with ID FRAUD just to get access to a horror film say??



Now,if you actually read any of the replies that DON'T agree with you..the you will see ATS is a wide range of ages..
Members don't have to 'be a kid' just because they disagree with your opinion..whether you swallowed the blue pill or not..no-one has insulted you for that opinion.
You owe an apology to some I think.


Oh yeah..

I DO hate the institution.. who wants to live in an Institution?..crazy or not..



posted on Sep, 1 2008 @ 04:03 PM
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reply to post by AGENT_T
 


actually, i called him an idiot more than once, weather this is a statement of fact or an insult is debatable but i'm sure sirnex doesn't see it that way.



posted on Sep, 1 2008 @ 04:14 PM
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reply to post by pieman
 


1: Yes, you do. If you apply for a job or have utility bills, then yes, you already give this information out.

2: They can easily link it to you IP address which is linked to your account. Regardless of them having the information they ALREADY have is a serious moot point considering that they already know.

3: Google it.




the privacy issues are in the fact that the information is unsecured when sent and unsecured when retrieved as is the query sent to the government data-base. the freedom issue is in the potential for the government to exploit this to build track your use of the internet easily.


Handing any of your information to anyone is insecure, but you already do that with job applications, credit card applications, utility bills, insurance, tax forms. People can steal mail from you unsecured mailbox. The mail man can steal your mail also. A potential employer could potentially use all your information that you legally have to give them for employment and commit identity theft themselves.

There was an incident where a couple of employees in Sears had stolen credit information from hundreds or so customers. It isn't the system, it's the PEOPLE. If people would just stop doing things they shouldn't be doing against other people then perhaps we wouldn't have to come up with all these laws in the first place.




can you expand on the reference you made to the institution that protects the country? are you refering to the government as a whole or a particular element of it?


Government as a whole.




yes, why are the government getting involved, who mandated it, who authorised it, why.


Honestly I don't know, but honestly I see nothing wrong with verifying that the information given is correct. We already have the database in place, so why not check against that to persuade against any falsification?

Why does the government get involved with television and movie ratings also? Shouldn't you have an outrage against that too? The government is playing the role as the parent dictating what a child can and can't watch. It is no different than having an age verification system.




banks require the customer to have faith in their security in order for them to turn a profit, therefore i trust the bank to be secure.


I would trust the government over a bank. The governments have a huge incentive also to maintain the highest security else they get hacked by foreign nations. Banks are hacked quiet often, again google it.




in what way, outline for me the government involvement in age security for websites to date.


Reading comprehension issue here. Age verification has been around BUT NOT in this implementation.



posted on Sep, 1 2008 @ 04:23 PM
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reply to post by AGENT_T
 


Ok ok ok... let me see if I can try and understand your logic. PRE EXISTING LAW GO AWAY I HATE YOU GHARRR MEANIES!!!!!


ID Fraud already exists. The simple fact that verification systems today can be circumvented by entering arbitrary false information shows how insecure those systems are, so by requiring actual VERIFIED information as to be TRUE and NOT FALSIFIED, you effectively stop children from entering arbitrary false information.

The law against ID fraud already exists, if a person wishes to steal someone else information for circumventing this system, then they are committing A PRE EXISTING CRIMINAL OFFENSE. There was no new classification because the law already existed against it, the only issue now is whether someone will break that law to gain access now.

If you don't like this country, then pack up and leave. No one is forcing you to stay here, and certainly not the government. They are too busy attending to more important issues, like babysitting my kids tonite so I can go out o.0



posted on Sep, 1 2008 @ 04:31 PM
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reply to post by sirnex
 


I want my two minutes back after reading that last 'rebuttal'


Intelligent and civil conversation just has zero meaning to you doesn't it.


Have fun swallowing the Government line..in YOUR country.



posted on Sep, 1 2008 @ 04:33 PM
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Originally posted by sirnex
reply to post by AGENT_T
 


Ok ok ok... let me see if I can try and understand your logic. PRE EXISTING LAW GO AWAY I HATE YOU GHARRR MEANIES!!!!!


ID Fraud already exists. The simple fact that verification systems today can be circumvented by entering arbitrary false information shows how insecure those systems are, so by requiring actual VERIFIED information as to be TRUE and NOT FALSIFIED, you effectively stop children from entering arbitrary false information.

The law against ID fraud already exists, if a person wishes to steal someone else information for circumventing this system, then they are committing A PRE EXISTING CRIMINAL OFFENSE. There was no new classification because the law already existed against it, the only issue now is whether someone will break that law to gain access now.

If you don't like this country, then pack up and leave. No one is forcing you to stay here, and certainly not the government. They are too busy attending to more important issues, like babysitting my kids tonite so I can go out o.0


first, you're not stopping any children from entering false information. all they need to know is the zipcode, full name and birthday of any legal age cousin,aunt or uncle, or parent and that would certainly be false as that information is not the childs correct?. secondly, it's not a secure encrypted process. bank transactions are.(to the degree that they can be)

And what does this have to do with not liking the country? It's about government being kept in it's place, serving the people, not the other way around. It's also about keeping the government(collectively) from keeping tabs on our activities, which normally they'd need a warrant and just cause to do so.



posted on Sep, 1 2008 @ 04:43 PM
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reply to post by optimus primal
 


Yes, they could steal a relatives information and falsely use that stolen information, but then that falls under the pre existing law of identity theft which is a moot argument against the verification system itself. If someone is willing to steal another persons information for their own gain, then they are a criminal. It is not right under ANY circumstance to steal another persons information, which thankfully is why we have laws against that. If the person wants to break that pre existing law to circumvent a new verification system then they are going that extra step to commit criminal offenses.

The freedom isn't being taken away from anyone who is already free to view the content. Kids already by law are not allowed to view certain content, unless a parent gives the ok to view that content then there is nothing wrong freedom wise. Privacy again is moot because you already have no choice but to use that information INSECURELY as well to function as a member of society.

This verification system affects no one and certainly is no more harmful than other verification systems out there that have been around for years just because this particular one is verified through a verifiable database.



posted on Sep, 1 2008 @ 04:52 PM
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Originally posted by sirnex
1: Yes, you do. If you apply for a job or have utility bills, then yes, you already give this information out.
fine, i give you that, this information may be held in various databases in isolation.


2: They can easily link it to you IP address which is linked to your account. Regardless of them having the information they ALREADY have is a serious moot point considering that they already know.
they cannot do it easily, they need to prove that there is a reasonable cause to seek this information. if it is reasonable for them to track me i have no issue, if it is not i do not wish to be tracked. this is freedom of privacy.



Handing any of your information to anyone is insecure
but all the other ways that you have outlined are uncommon, taking information from the internet and using it is common, it's about being aware. being more careful with information on the internet than you would be in traditional forums is equivalent to being careful not to walk through the bad part of town at 2am while being comfortable on your own street at 2am.



Government as a whole.
i hate the nanny state attitude of the government and the abdication of responsibility it fosters in the population.




Honestly I don't know
and neither do i, thats what my issue is

but honestly I see nothing wrong with verifying that the information given is correct. We already have the database in place, so why not check against that to persuade against any falsification?
what business of the governments is it if people wish to provide false detail to private companies?


Why does the government get involved with television and movie ratings also? Shouldn't you have an outrage against that too? The government is playing the role as the parent dictating what a child can and can't watch. It is no different than having an age verification system.
this is incorrect by definition. knowingly exposing a child to offensive material is a different kettle of fish from a child actively seeking out the material. i don't seek to allow a child to view anything, i simply feel that the system outlined is flawed to the point where it is unfit for purpose. it can only be effectively used to gather data on lawful citizens.




I would trust the government over a bank. The governments have a huge incentive also to maintain the highest security else they get hacked by foreign nations. Banks are hacked quiet often, again google it.
the US gov. is attempting to extradite a uk citizen because he used default passwords to view confidential files. they're probably less secure than the average citizen. the banks on the other hand require specialist criminals to target them in order that they be compromised. gimme a break, you don't need to move off the site to find out how secure the us gov. actually are. other governments are no better, between laptops being lost and CD's being misplaced, i'ld trust a reasonably competent 10 year old before i'ld trust any of the governments.



Reading comprehension issue here. Age verification has been around BUT NOT in this implementation.


clearly comprehension is an issue, no-ones addressing a freaking problem with age verification in general, we're discussing this implementation.

[edit on 1-9-2008 by pieman]



posted on Sep, 1 2008 @ 04:55 PM
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reply to post by sirnex
 

What we're really talking about is the government tracking what we do online by use of this verification system. as i said, in order for them to do it before this they'd have to acquire a warrant to gain access to isp logs. now all they have to do is create a small program to tell them when sites are requesting verification of identity. they log these sites and then know where you've been, what you've seen. again i stress this: normally they'd have to provide a warrant for such data, follow the rules of our laws. with this type of verification system they don't have to.

you're right the information you're talking about is insecure generally. but when put on the internet without a reasonably secure connection with encryption, it's not just available to the people at your work, or library or bank, it's available to every person on the planet with a computer. that makes misuse of your personal data more likely, probably even assured, to be used either against you,for some criminal act which you have no knowledge of, or identity theft. so really the insecurity of the information in the realworld in relation to work,bank etc is technically more secure than putting it on the internet on an unsecured,unencrypted site.

i'd like to point out again however that the second point of my post is not really what this thread is about, according to what the OP was talking about. my first point is what this thready is really about.



posted on Sep, 1 2008 @ 05:05 PM
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Just don't visit sites that have these tracking systems... and warn others not to give them money by visiting either.

That simple. Financially crash anyone pandering to this form of tracking.

What I look at online is my business.
And I'm not going to support a company that feels otherwise.



posted on Sep, 1 2008 @ 05:22 PM
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reply to post by scientist
 




common...get a grip on it !


a site cannot know who the user is, it can only know the ISP...
and that is the criteria the site is going by,
And they are using your gullibility in thinking that they know your giving fake ID info
((because it doesn't match the registry data of the computers' ISP))


then the persons 'Paranoia' kicks in, & then the asumption that the
'mature' part of the site is monitored by the 'Department of Morality'...

hey, either you are truly Buffaloed....or... you milked the fears of the uninformed for a 6+ page thread




see-ya

==============================


naw, on the 2nd thought.........i'll try to explain another tack the site is taking.


the link you gave in the OP shows a dual access site

one is a GP rated trailer !
one is a 'M' rated trailer !

the dudes are using the lure of some schmuck clicking on the GP trailer
(so they gain entry into their videos)
because then they put the 'lure' in front of the site visitor...
who see that the site is actually claiming they have Mature vids/trailers available...and the new visitor has the false confidence that once into their library of Trailers....the new visitor will be able to wangle into the Mature Video Library also.

sure , it could happen... but most likely for a 'fee' 'price',
but the promotion you linked to served it purpose, it got some of youse clicking & submitting data...& getting cookies in return

[edit on 1-9-2008 by St Udio]



posted on Sep, 1 2008 @ 05:27 PM
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reply to post by St Udio
 


I doubt anyone is worried about whether or not this site about a comedy movie knows who they are exactly. And no, it has no way of knowing who you are exactly - although that can change quickly in the near future, given this very trend; making this topic all the more valid.

Thanks for bringing that up. It's already checking for valid name and zipcode - all it really needs to do at that point is link with an i.p. address and physical address (via ISP records). It could match the name provided, AND make sure its valid for the person with that IP.

You are already looking at the technology in this very thread. It would literally be less than 10 lines of code to add all of the aforementioned.



posted on Sep, 1 2008 @ 05:28 PM
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Originally posted by pieman
what business of the governments is it if people wish to provide false detail to private companies?


ah, thank you for phrasing it so succinctly! The best explanation is usually the least verbose. You have proven that, thanks!



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