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Military help for Georgia is a 'declaration of war', says Moscow

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posted on Aug, 28 2008 @ 05:30 PM
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Originally posted by jetxnet
And I suppose Russia arming Iran who in turn trains and funds militias in Iraq using Russian and Chinese weapons isn't a declration of war.


It is whatever U.S. wants to make it. If U.S. so wished it could say that Russia supplying Iran which is then supplying insurgents is an unofficial war. It wouldn't change much.

So far it seems like this is just talk coming out of Russia. No one has any doubt that U.S. is planning to supply military equipment to Georgia in the coming months, especially with all the NATO talk recently.

Russia is just trying to scare off or rather delay the arms supplies to Georgia, so that the S Ossetia and Abkhazia issue has some time to blow off steam. Nothing will come of these threats.

If you noticed so far in this war we have seen a very large degree of talk, threats and accusations - and very little of actual conflict. As far as wars go - this was a very short and isolated war. As far as politicians go - they proved their worth in making threats and accusations out of nothing again. The threats from both sides keep coming, but they appear less and less realistic.




posted on Aug, 28 2008 @ 05:49 PM
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Originally posted by ProfEmeritus
This situation reminds me of the Cuban missile crisis. Khrushchev banked on the US not making a move when they installed the missiles in Cuba.


Khrushchev banked on the US backing down safe in the knowledge that they had their own missiles in turkey and Europe. He didn't bank on JFK playing it close to the chest ( the US national security state were mostly spoiling for a war) and forcing the USSR to become blockade runners to reinforce their position in Cuba. As it turns out the missiles were ready to launch by the time they were discovered but the US taking the issue to the UN and putting the USSR ( they denied it all at first to be shown up by very clear photo's) on the spot basically forced the USSR to back down to avoid seemingly suicidally aggressive.


Of course, when Kennedy challenged him, he was backed into a corner, and the world came very close to total nuclear war.


Only if the US wanted to start the war as the the USSR held no aces at that time.


At the last minute, a "save face" solution was proffered that both the US and the USSR could accept. However, Castro pressed Khrushchev to launch a pre-emptive strike against the US.


I would LOVE to see where Castro 'pressed' the USSR to start a war where Cuba would have gotten obliterated first.


Finally, a second solution was agreed upon, whereby the US agreed to take their missiles out of Turkey in exchange for the removal of the Cuban missiles.


Which was a deal made in secret and came at no great cost to the US which had at this time a massive advantage in numbers of ICBM's deployed.


Is there a Solomon among us that can extricate both Russia and the West without losing face, or is this destined to develop into a VERY hot war?


The US 'leaders' no longer have the massive advantages it held back in 1962 and in terms of strategic firepower the Russians will be the one's who decide how the current debacle ends. Since they failed to use their rather large strategic advantage to attempt 'taking over the world' in 1985 i am quite confident that they will continue along the present course of forced disarmament of the west thus reducing the capability of the US to intervene in their affairs.

Stellar



posted on Aug, 28 2008 @ 06:59 PM
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reply to post by maloy
 


The west needs to # off, honestly.

Stop rushing in to save the world when the west is starting to lose itself.



posted on Aug, 28 2008 @ 07:14 PM
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reply to post by maloy
 


fu**in A Bravo. If I could give a flag to that post I would. Clear, concise and not even sarcastic. (I would have chosen that route surely)

Is ther some kind of applaud button?

Well done reply. Thank You for that


Thank God we have some people here on ATS that keep there . in the real world.. definitely starred



posted on Aug, 28 2008 @ 07:29 PM
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Hi There,


If NATO suddenly takes military actions against Abkhazia and South Ossetia, acting solely in support of Tbilisi, this will mean a declaration of war on Russia.
Dmitry Rogozin (former Nationalist) Ambassador to the North Atlantic Alliance. Taken from external source provided by 'OP'.

The so-called quote regarding a 'declaration of war' did not come from Putin or Medvedev. It came from an interview with a former Nationalist. This is simply more media-stirring of the fertilizer. What we are seeing being played out on the global political chessboard, are merely strategies for globalisation: wholescale world war is not on the globalising agenda. There will be tactical and strategic conflicts fought, but never where the superpowers themselves actually come together in conflict.

We are seeing the reshaping of the global politic to 'agreed' globalising agendas...the NWO. In order for this to come about, the superpowers need to redefine or gain full control of the smaller countries run by tin-pot dictators. The 'fear' factor is merely to gain compliance from populations as their country's armed forces do what is necessary to bring about what the NWO consider requisite. They know that protests will arise from images of innocent civilians being slaughtered, thus, the media is controlled, and domestic rules and regulations are changed to silence the voice of protest.

Eventually, we will see the global picture settle down to a world quartered and controlled by the four superpowers. China will control the Far-East, Russia will control the Eastern-Europe, Europe will control Western Europe, And America the Americas. A simple picture defining the NWO's current agenda. It might not be precisley how I state it, as I've made it an over-simplification so one can gain a sense of what is happening. The next step after all this has been achieved is to bring about the ultimate agenda...full globalisation. One-world government, one-world armed forces organisation, one currency, etc. These small conflicts that are arising now and again, are simply stepping stones to that ultimate agenda.

Best wishes



posted on Aug, 28 2008 @ 07:35 PM
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reply to post by bdswetty
 


Personally this thread has provided enough amusement thus far.. so I'm not so interested in preventing this verbal 'cold war' from developing further.

It's always interesting to see such a clash of ideas with no actual ideas or understanding exchanged.

And, as always, its not the ability to verbalize a concept that is the problem, It's more the listening bit that escapes those of us who, on the surface, advocate understanding most.

Humanity as a whole is such an interesting subject don't you think?
After all, how many other species are not just willing but enthusiastic in risking whatever remains of their miserable existence over what seems to be a point of political rigidity than any actual ethical standpoint?

Hypocrisy!

Now there is an interesting word....

Understanding what it means from an intellectual standpoint is quite simple..
Seeing what it means with respect to your own skewed perspective is another ball-game altogether.

I wonder how many here have ever thought of that...

After all.. even Homer Simpson managed to explain it in terms the average man could laugh at....



posted on Aug, 28 2008 @ 08:08 PM
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reply to post by StellarX
 




I would LOVE to see where Castro 'pressed' the USSR to start a war where Cuba would have gotten obliterated first.

Here you go:
en.wikipedia.org...

Castro, on the other hand, was convinced an invasion was soon at hand, and he dictated a letter to Khrushchev that appeared to call for a preemptive strike on the U.S. He also ordered all anti-aircraft weapons in Cuba to fire on any U.S. aircraft, whereas in the past they were ordered only to fire on groups of two or more. At 6:00 a.m. on October 27, the CIA delivered a memo reporting that three of the four missile sites at San Cristobal and the two sites at Sagua la Grande appeared to be fully operational. They also note that the Cuban military continued to organize for action, although they were under order not to initiate action unless attacked.



posted on Aug, 28 2008 @ 08:14 PM
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The red phone is getting mighty hot lately. This conflict is spiralling out of control. I see not good things here. Not good. NATO has defacto encircled Russia. They don't like it. And I can't blame them. I just had a visual of Cheney rubbing his pudgy little paws together. And a little drool at the lip. That's your America people. Halliburton needs new digs.

[edit on 8/28/2008 by jpm1602]



posted on Aug, 28 2008 @ 08:48 PM
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reply to post by jpm1602
 





NATO has defacto encircled Russia. They don't like it.

Now they know how West Berlin felt for 45 years. Maybe a dose of their own medicine is what they need to wake up. For 45 years, they "encircled Eastern Europe, so they are the last that should open their mouths.



posted on Aug, 28 2008 @ 08:59 PM
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Originally posted by ProfEmeritus
Now they know how West Berlin felt for 45 years. Maybe a dose of their own medicine is what they need to wake up. For 45 years, they "encircled Eastern Europe, so they are the last that should open their mouths.


The Communist regime that did what you say is long gone. It has been gone for nearly two decades. Why chase old ghosts?

So according to your revenge theory - Germany and Japan also deserve to be encirled by a hostile military alliance. You know - just to make sure they don't go invading their neighbors again. Why not encirle the U.S. too and place ABM systems all around it - just in case it decides to nuke someone to get a fast ticket out of a conflict again.

This treatment of Russia by the West is the main problem here. Communsim collapsed in 1991 - yet the West has continued to treat Russia with hostility and reservation. Yes - even before Putin came to power.



posted on Aug, 28 2008 @ 09:15 PM
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reply to post by maloy
 





The Communist regime that did what you say is long gone. It has been gone for nearly two decades. Why chase old ghosts?

So according to your revenge theory - Germany and Japan also deserve to be encirled by a hostile military alliance.


You know very well that your analogy does NOT apply. Japan and Germany did NOT enslave any countries after the war!

As for revenge, I am not talking about revenge. I am talking about a country that enslaved hundreds of millions of people for 45 years, and is trying to do it AGAIN. Russia has no right to invade Georgia. Putin is trying to re-establish the old Soviet Union, and you know it. Your avatar seems to agree with that attempt.



posted on Aug, 28 2008 @ 09:48 PM
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Originally posted by ProfEmeritus
You know very well that your analogy does NOT apply. Japan and Germany did NOT enslave any countries after the war!


What they did during the war more than makes up for it. But again why keep looking to the past to make excuses for the present? I understand the nostalgia of the Cold War and having realistic and scary enemies. But honestly - how long are you going to wave the Communist flag over present day Russia to justify your prejudice? It was Russians who overthrew the Communist regime - it was Russians who kept the communists from comming back during the coup attempt in 1992.

Soviet Union is no more. The people who ran it are no more. The Marxist Leninist idealogy is no more. You want to question the dogma of the new Russian government and Putin? Well then research their reforms and actions - and the reasoning behind them. But constantly using Soviet Union to justify your views of Russia today is simply living in the past.



Originally posted by ProfEmeritus
As for revenge, I am not talking about revenge. I am talking about a country that enslaved hundreds of millions of people for 45 years, and is trying to do it AGAIN.


What country are you talking about. Russians were "enslaved" just like everyone else was. Russians suffered just like everyone else was. It wasn't country that "enslaved" the people of the Soviet Union - it was a falty ideology coupled with misguided revolutionary spirit and some very dangerous individuals - the most dangerous of whom weren't even Russian.



Originally posted by ProfEmeritus
Russia has no right to invade Georgia.


You are right. But it didn't invade Georgia. That said - Russian army was still wrong to advance beyond S. Ossetia, and Russia rushed the gun to recognized the breakaway republics' independence. But Russia has shown much restraint in this war - when it could have easily pushed on to Tbilisi and ousted the maniac in power there.



Originally posted by ProfEmeritus
Putin is trying to re-establish the old Soviet Union


Is he? How so? Putin is centralizing power and limiting democratic progress to focus on rebuilding Russian economy instead. He is doing some questionable things, and Russia is still short on various liberties. But U.S. under Bush isn't making progress in this area either. So I could just as well say that Bush is tryin to establish a Communist state in the U.S.

As I said - Putin and his party is far from communist. They have introduced no communist reforms, and made no socialist progress. This fact is not difficult to realize once you actually take time to research Putin's and Medvedev's reforms. On the opposite of communsim - they are building a very conservative-idealogy-based regime, more on the right than the left side of the political spectrum.

What the Russian government is doing should be questioned and is a matter of concern. But we are not talking about communism. You might recognize it as such only because your first instinct is to associate Russia with communism.



Originally posted by ProfEmeritus
and you know it.


Am I to trust that you know what I know? I think not.



Originally posted by ProfEmeritus
Your avatar seems to agree with that attempt.


My avatar is about as outdated as that dinosaur called NATO. It is a symbol of a theoretical utopia based on an idealogy that is enticing yet highly faulted. A utopia that failed during the innitial stages of its execution because of leadership corrupted by power. You can blame communism if you wish - but I choose to blame the execution of the concept rather than the concept.

I am not a fan of the symbol on my avatar. Its purpose is to remind people that execution of the concept is everything, regardless of how nice that concept looks in a book or a leaflet. A bad execution can drive even the best concepts and idealogies into the ground - be is the communism or democracy.

[edit on 28-8-2008 by maloy]



posted on Aug, 28 2008 @ 09:56 PM
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reply to post by maloy
 





You can blame communism if you wish - but I choose to blame the execution of the concept rather than the concept.


I'm curious, seriously. Can you name ONE COUNTRY that "properly" executed the concept of your communism? If not, then maybe it isn't executable.

[edit on 28-8-2008 by ProfEmeritus]



posted on Aug, 28 2008 @ 10:42 PM
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Originally posted by ProfEmeritus
I'm curious, seriously. Can you name ONE COUNTRY that "properly" executed the concept of your communism? If not, then maybe it isn't executable.
[edit on 28-8-2008 by ProfEmeritus]


I never said there is such a country, for in fact there isn't. And I did say that the communist idealogy is faulty.

This thread isn't about communism and has nothing to do with communism. My point was that Putin is not trying to restore communism.



posted on Aug, 28 2008 @ 10:49 PM
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Hoestly who cares anymore...why doesnt the whole wolrd just battle royale till there is one supreme ruler. Enough of these "small conflicts" here and there. Lets just get it over with already, its really annoying I think.



posted on Aug, 28 2008 @ 11:28 PM
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Just one tiny little problem with that scenario. We both have enough nukes to blow the grass off this planet three times around.



posted on Aug, 28 2008 @ 11:34 PM
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Originally posted by maloy

Originally posted by emergencyresponseteam
4) Ossetian separatists attack Georgian peacekeepers/police.


Osssetians attacking Georgian police and Georgian police attacking Ossetians - this has occured for the past 15 years. Each uses some excuse or other to sneak small attacks against each other. It is not clear who provoked who, or who crossed whose border in that first week of August.

No matter who attacker who or who attack who, there is nothing to do with Russia. Who let Russia give passport to people who live in Georgia? Also nobody order/forced Russia give those passports


Originally posted by maloy

Originally posted by emergencyresponseteam
5) Georgia responds.


Georgia was ready for the invasion of S Ossetia for over a year and has been preparing for it. And if it was a "response" - it was a rather disproportionate one - and it wasn't aimed at Ossetian armed rebels but at civilians.

Completely nonsense! S.Ossetia is belong to Georgia or Russia? It seems Russia has already look the S.Ossetia as own territory.




Originally posted by maloy

Originally posted by emergencyresponseteam
6) Russia invades Georgia.


If Russia "invaded" Georgia Tbilisi would be swarming with Russian tanks, and Saakashvili would be deported if not arrested.

Russia went in to restore the ceasefire by kicking Georgian forces far away from the conflict zone. That might be viewed as aggressive - but it is no invasion.

If you want to see what an actual invasion looks like refer to the U.S. invasion of Iraq.

Ball#! If you murdered ten persons, you were a murderer, you murdered one person, you also were a murderer as well. Russia occupied Georgian capital, Russia was an intruder, Russia intruded one inch Georgian land, Russia also was an intruder. Nazi invading neighbors also take keeping ceasefire as excuse.


Originally posted by maloy

Originally posted by emergencyresponseteam
7) Russia refuses to pull out of Georgia after they agree to.

Russia has already left Gori and Senaki. And the ceasefire agreement spells certain conditions - including that Russia has the right to maintain a sizeable buffer zone around S Ossetia. Nor does the agreement state the deadline for Russian complete withdrawal. Russia did not violate the agreement.


Pull out of Georgia completely, especially from S.Ossetia because you are at the land which originally is not belong to Russia


Originally posted by maloy

Originally posted by emergencyresponseteam
8) Russia declares parts of another sovereign nation independent.


Pot meet kettle. Didn't U.S. declare a part of another sovereign nation inpendent this year (hint - refer to 1) above).

And Russia didn't "declare" them to be independent, it recognized their independence. A referendum held in the breakaway republics lead the republics to declare themselves to be independent.

Your neighbor stole, which not means your steal would become legality.


Originally posted by maloy

Originally posted by emergencyresponseteam
9) Russia threatens war with any Georgian ally.


False. Where did you dig this out? Georgia has many allies, and as long as they don't stick their nose where they don't belong everything will be nice and peachy.

Russia stated that it doesn't rule out war in the case that any Georgian allies take direct part in trying to invade the now sovereign states of S Ossetia or Abkhazia.

yes, because Russia always bullied puny neighbor.


[edit on 28-8-2008 by emile]



posted on Aug, 29 2008 @ 12:17 AM
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did any of you realize all this is a 100% scripted act? yes its a PLAY, a MOVIE, a SHOW.

Russia and USA are actually on the same side, behind scenes
playing everyone for fools, scare mongering all of us into a phoney cold war

they both agreed to create this mini-low intensity conflict, and use it as propaganda to scare both of their populations into submission, because the war on terror wasnt working so good anymore, as most people saw thru it too easily

putin and bush are both just puppets for the powers that be, the international bankers/corporatists whom control the entire globe now
they are funded and orchistrated by the same people.

remember world war 2? remember how bankers/corporatists funded BOTH sides of the war? remember how it was all set up by the hidden powers? remember how so many people died for what? for nothing!
because the REAL hitlers/stalins were hidden in a veil of shadows, playing their puppets for the entire world
and our fathers/grandfathers died for those lies

you people need to STOP buying into the fake war propaganda (LIES) and realize who our REAL enemy is
the men hiding in the shadows who are funding/puppeteering this entire sham, this cherade

this is how they convince you to kill each other, with LIES


DENY IGNORANCE!



posted on Aug, 29 2008 @ 12:35 AM
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Originally posted by muzzleflash
did any of you realize all this is a 100% scripted act? yes its a PLAY, a MOVIE, a SHOW.

Russia and USA are actually on the same side, behind scenes
playing everyone for fools, scare mongering all of us into a phoney cold war

they both agreed to create this mini-low intensity conflict, and use it as propaganda to scare both of their populations into submission, because the war on terror wasnt working so good anymore, as most people saw thru it too easily

putin and bush are both just puppets for the powers that be, the international bankers/corporatists whom control the entire globe now
they are funded and orchistrated by the same people.

remember world war 2? remember how bankers/corporatists funded BOTH sides of the war? remember how it was all set up by the hidden powers? remember how so many people died for what? for nothing!
because the REAL hitlers/stalins were hidden in a veil of shadows, playing their puppets for the entire world
and our fathers/grandfathers died for those lies

you people need to STOP buying into the fake war propaganda (LIES) and realize who our REAL enemy is
the men hiding in the shadows who are funding/puppeteering this entire sham, this cherade

this is how they convince you to kill each other, with LIES


DENY IGNORANCE!




Proof? *puts on tinfoil hat*



posted on Aug, 29 2008 @ 12:38 AM
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What if the rumor, from years back, that the former USSR had planted nukes in several major cities -is true?



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