Originally posted by Thebudweiserstuntman
So what you saying? The EU should come liberate America from Bush?

Yes, yes it should. After all our nation has been taken hostage by a military-industrial-complex which is ruled and manipulated by corrupt fascists and hyper-capitalists through the use of shady finances, bogus elections, and assassinations.

Hey, that's a good idea. I wonder how much buzz it would get if a large percentage of the US population cried out for Liberation. Would the UN be bound to help us?

Maybe some of you Russia lovers out there (or America haters) can explain something to me.

How is Georgia trying to keep S. Ossetia and Ahbkazia from secession any different than when Chechnya attempted to do so from Russia? I'll answer that. Russia completely and utterly demolished that "break-away" country.

Now, seeing where this situation is going and how it becomes total hypocrasy on the part of Russia, as well as the threats Russia is spewing forth every other day, can you continue to defend "poor" Russia.

I just thought I would ask because I do not understand your justification.

Simple.. the MAJORITY of people in these two 'breakaways' don't WANT to be part of Georgia and never have. I think you are confused.

Originally posted by Fromabove

Actually, Russia is in for a big surprise. We are going to help Georgia. We are going to do it. There is no way we cannot or we look weak. So I guess we are going to have that war. We put a couple of ships in the ports there so they could shoot at them and get this thing started, what's wrong, are they more afraid than we think. Saddam tried to bluff and talk a good talk.

The difference is that the US knew Saddam was unarmed in any way that could pose an actual threat to us, AND he wasnt particularly popular in the region. (Read; no one else was going to jump in)

I would be very, very surprised if we were willing to take on someone who had every possibility of both defending itself against us, AND doing significant damage to us.

We havent even been able to completely whip Iraq into submission, even given the fact they had little to throw back at us, I seriously doubt that our leaders are willing to take on Russia.

How did it happen that we (the US) wound up on the wrong end of this?
(Bush & Cheney)
It's very obviouis that Georgia was in the wrong. They were the aggressors, they attacked South Ossentia killing thousands of civilians - including Americans I might add.
Russia turned around like a sleeping bear that someone kicks in the ass, and bit a chunk out of Georgia's ass for their misbehavior.

Georgia got what they deserved, and why in the hell the US is backing the clowns in Tblisi is beyond my comprehension. So what if they helped us in Iraq, they did wrong - and they got punished.

This is crazy, I am called a neocon by many - and yet this has me really pissed off at the current administration.
Only George Bush could screw up an otherwise good relationship with Russia. What a Dumbass.

Notice: Continuation of the National Emergency with Respect to Certain Terrorist Attacks


RSS Feed White House News

Consistent with section 202(d) of the National Emergencies Act (50 U.S.C. 1622(d)), I am continuing for 1 year the national emergency I declared on September 14, 2001, in Proclamation 7463, with respect to the terrorist attacks at the World Trade Center, New York, New York, the Pentagon, and aboard United Airlines flight 93, and the continuing and immediate threat of further attacks on the United States.

Because the terrorist threat continues, the national emergency declared on September 14, 2001, and the powers and authorities adopted to deal with that emergency, must continue in effect beyond September 14, 2008. Therefore, I am continuing in effect for an additional year the national emergency I declared on September 14, 2001, with respect to the terrorist threat.

This notice shall be published in the Federal Register and transmitted to the Congress.

GEORGE W. BUSH

THE WHITE HOUSE,

August 28, 2008.

Originally posted by maloy

Hasn't the West got more important things to do? Like U.S. finishing the two wars it already started? Or fixing its economy? Or fixing its world image? Or staying glued to the tv to see what Britney Spears is doing?

maloy.. just so you know.. Fromabove isn't a government spokesmen, he isn't George Bush, he knows # about policy and he doesn't speak for all Americans.. so chill a bit.. eh?


Funny how you seem to know who Britney is...


For the record, this American laughs at a "need" to "fix" a World Image.

I personally think we need to pack up shop from ALL countries take everything home, including all the good we do (yea.. we do a tiny bit of that) and then just see how many countries take over other countries and starve out the millions it doesn't ethnically like. See the dominoes fall. it sure would make George Carlin happy.

Originally posted by bamaoutlaw
Notice: Continuation of the National Emergency with Respect to Certain Terrorist Attacks

Wow...I thought this was a joke, but apparently it is true.

Not sure what this has to do with Georgia. I don't see any link between the "terrorism" cited and what is being discussed in this thread, but I would definitely like to see some discussion about this (maybe a new thread?) If we've been in a state of emergency since Sept. 2001, does extending that for a year make any real difference?

Originally posted by capgrup
How is Georgia trying to keep S. Ossetia and Ahbkazia from secession any different than when Chechnya attempted to do so from Russia?

The two separatist conflicts are somewhat similar. Most Russians don't approve of how the war in Chechnya was conducted, and many blame Yeltsin and the Russian generals for countless idiotic mistakes of that war. The exception is that Russia started an intervention knowing that it can hold on the breakaway region. Georgia started an intervention knowing well enough that they will likely be beaten back.

Originally posted by capgrup
I'll answer that. Russia completely and utterly demolished that "break-away" country.

Yes it did. But the 1994 First Chechen War didn't start out violent. Russia went in an occupied Grozny without any shooting - they just stationed their armor on the central square. The Chechens are the ones who opened fire first in 1994 - and the rest is a bloody history.

Theoretically Russia's action are hypocritical - many people realize this. But Kosovo changed the whole playing field. Now it is U.S. that is more hypocritical. I suspect that without Kosovo precedent, Russia would not have recognized S Ossetia and Abkhazia right now.

Originally posted by capgrup
Now, seeing where this situation is going and how it becomes total hypocrasy on the part of Russia, as well as the threats Russia is spewing forth every other day, can you continue to defend "poor" Russia.

Russia's actions are deplorable on several levels. No one is arguing that Russia is totally right.

However - U.S./NATO are no less hypocritical, and are in no position whatsoever to blame or threaten Russia. Russia is using threats now only in reply to U.S.' and NATO's threats.

Originally posted by capgrup
I just thought I would ask because I do not understand your justification.

The arguement is not that Russia is right. I don't know about others, but I have argued that all 3 sides are wrong since August 10th - Russia is wrong, Georgia is wrong, and U.S. is wrong.

U.S. set the pace for this affair with making Kosovo independendent and supplying Georgia's unstable regime with weapons and monetary support.


Russia's actions can be justified - when compared and contrasted with the U.S. I focus on justifying Russia's actions because much of the blame seems to be placed on Russia - instead of all three parties involved.

Originally posted by bios
How did it happen that we (the US) wound up on the wrong end of this?
(Bush & Cheney)
It's very obviouis that Georgia was in the wrong. They were the aggressors, they attacked South Ossentia killing thousands of civilians - including Americans I might add.
Russia turned around like a sleeping bear that someone kicks in the ass, and bit a chunk out of Georgia's ass for their misbehavior.

Georgia got what they deserved, and why in the hell the US is backing the clowns in Tblisi is beyond my comprehension. So what if they helped us in Iraq, they did wrong - and they got punished.

This is crazy, I am called a neocon by many - and yet this has me really pissed off at the current administration.
Only George Bush could screw up an otherwise good relationship with Russia. What a Dumbass.

No its not obvious that is the problem. You aren't there neither am I? All we can rely on is the different media sources that are being fed to us. I do hear of alot of ethnic cleansing. Now the Georgians are claiming they are cleansing the territories in the buffer zone in Georgia. Russia has no right. The excuse for Russia's war has changed from Genocide to protecting non-russian citizens. Another poster made a good point, that they have been killing each other for hundreds of years, without Russia's involvement. This is just an excuse in my opinion, although that my not be obvious to you. To say your perspective is obvious and the everyone else is wrong, is incredibly arrogant.

Originally posted by maloy

Theoretically Russia's action are hypocritical - many people realize this. But Kosovo changed the whole playing field. Now it is U.S. that is more hypocritical. I suspect that without Kosovo precedent, Russia would not have recognized S Ossetia and Abkhazia right now.


- instead of all three parties involved.

Either your a hypocrite or not. How can one be more hypocritical?

So if Moscow says that if giving military aid to Georgia is a declaration of war and therefore opens the door to military response....

Doesn't the fact that Iran aids certain insurgent groups in Iraq mean that Iran is declaring war on both Iraq and the U.S. and inviting a military response as well?

The U.S. and Russia love setting bad precedents for each other don't they? Back to the good ol' days

The good old days of the Cold War are back. At least the Russians are down several puppet states at the start of the present version of the Cold War and the new version of the Iron Curtain borders Russia instead of dividing Germany.

As for China, don't be surprised if they take the same approach to Russia as they did during the Cold War. Russia and China have much more to worry about with each other than some powerful nation across the ocean.

Russia is bullying its neighbors to the west, I wonder what Russia's eastern neighbors should be thinking?

As for now, China is being neutral in this situation, which is very very smart. The demographics of Russia indicate that it has a dying population, with an estimated loss of 750,000 per year. If China waits patiently and plays its cards right, China can achieve massive world superpower status and maintain good relations with the U.S. at the same time which would surely be an amazing feat.

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
Germany elected Hitler and his National Socialist party too back in the 1930s.

No they didn't 'elect' him and instead picked the near senile Hindenburg over Hitler by a large margin. Thirty seven percent of Germans voted for the NSDAP in 1932 so that is hardly a majority ( and people were not really voting) and the NSDAP didn't get near half the vote until Hitler had become a virtual dictator by dismembering the KPD and suspending civil rights in time for said election.

Just because a nation is stupid enough to democratically make itself undemocratic doesnt mean we as a democratic republic should blindly accept their stupidity.

Americans citizens did not vote Bush into power as he in fact had to steal both elections with the able help of the not so democratic party. Basically Americans no more elected Bush than Germans elected Hitler and this is not surprising given that neither populations are on the whole that stupid. People vote for their local representatives and these guys are normally quite a bit more able ( or less completely bought out perhaps) than what the party represents at the top. I have seen some video of Bush campaigning in Texas in 1978 and he doesn't anywhere near as dull witted as he seems today. I have often said that i think they might have replaced him with some kind of robot ( hence the fact that he cant chew his food or ride a bicycle ) so provided the technology exists i wouldn't be very surprised.

In conclusion there is a VERY obvious reason why dictators/tyrants with few redeeming qualities have to steal power and i will let you guys take a wild guess.

Stellar

Originally posted by maloy
Need everything be turned into the U.S. election campaign?

Politicians waving their hands around and acting stereotypically is what got this mess rolling. Now you want them to take this isolated conflict and make a whole bunch of hoopla out of nothing? Isn't everyone tired of that yet?

Many Americans are tired of that maloy sadly for the rest of my mindless flag waving countrymen they think it makes thier leaders look tough..

Originally posted by baffledon911
Oh how far the great russia has come over these past years, I can remember a short time ago they were selling there military equipment.

They still are. What is wrong with selling military equipment? All the large military powers do that to some extent.

Originally posted by baffledon911
Now they are ready for all out cold war, or even better to them a hot one.

They are ready - but it doesn't mean Russia wants one. NATO is one that has been playing Cold War games in Eastern Europe for the last 8 years. Once again - it is unlikely that there will be a real Cold War. To have a proper Cold War you need two sides with directly opposite idealogies, with intent to spread those idealogies.

But both U.S. and Russia have a similar idealogy - a capitalist centralized government bakced by a military industrial complex pretending to be a democracy.

Originally posted by baffledon911
What bothers me the most is that Russia is sowing these seeds within there own country

No more so than U.S. is sowing the seeds of impending Cold War within their own country. Look at all the Cold War and "lets kick Russia's ass" fanatics here.

Originally posted by baffledon911
I have seen the red youth camps(which speak for themselves)

RED YOUTH CAMPS? What in God's name are you talking about? Perhaps you mean the small amount of rather annoying and roudy pro-Putin youth. They may seem like a large group - but they are really not; they are justly overly vocal. And how are they RED? If you think they are based on communist idealogy - than you haven't seen anything. If anything thier dogma is based on the Russian Empire.

And we are talking of less than 1% of the population here. This is hardly the better-educated part of Russia's youth.

Originally posted by baffledon911
and almost any time you hear a russian youth open there mouth they are ready for war with the west.

So how many Russians have you communicated with? 5? 6? Many Russians are less conspicuous that you think. Don't predispose your views on Russia based on a small number of people.

The majority of Russians don't want any war. They want a good standard of living and safety.

Originally posted by baffledon911
They should know that the sleeping giant has still been asleep and response to 9/11 was the giant batting his arm at the fly.

Oh so it's sleeping? Really? What is it going to do when it wakes up? get cranky and pound the world to pieces?

"Thats very standoffish"

Originally posted by baffledon911
Americans would line up for war if war with a super power erupted.

No doubt.

What if their government and media told them that a war with a super power erupted, when in reality it hadn't? Would they line up then?

And I suppose Russia arming Iran who in turn trains and funds militias in Iraq using Russian and Chinese weapons isn't a declration of war.



[edit on 28-8-2008 by jetxnet]