Here's the Ad Obama is suing to keep you from watching

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


Ok. No need to get snippy.

Now, what about the rest of it, BH?

I know you can't think not finding the "respectable" and "mainstream" language in print is sufficient to overcome the factual extent of their historical interaction, right?

Because let me restate it:

Originally posted by loam

I think if somebody is hosting on your behalf a "meet and greet" to launch your political career...and you've actually stood in their living room...and worked as President in the non-profit organization they founded....and served together on the same 9 member board of another organization...and were together in a number of other public events, panels and speeches, you don't get to pass this off as some distant association.

Post.

Is all that wrong too?

Honestly, I want to know.

[edit on 28-8-2008 by loam]

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


they should have hung Ayers for what he was apart of and did...then we would not be having this silly discussion about that piece of garbage.

And I served to protect animals like him just to see him teach at a University and be friendly with someone who could very well be president...

you Ayers supporters make me sick...so does Obama's choice of friends...

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
So, then everything I say here on ATS can be directly attributed to Skeptic Overlord, right? If a portion from an article is posted on this website, then it's Springer's opinion and might as well come directly from his mouth? And Simon Gray can be held responsible for it?

Okay. If that's how your brain works. Believe whatever you like. Embrace Ignorance, that's what I always say.

This is twisted logic BH. We're talking about Obama's official campaign website where only his staff can post. We're not talking about a forum where anyone can post whatever they want.

So you're telling me that we can't assume that anything on Obama's official campaign website reflects his actual opinions?

if its on him official campain site then it is his opinion... no grey area here.

Originally posted by loam
Is all that wrong too?

Wrong? That's a judgment call. I have been debating the "facts" of the ad. In This Post, I said no one is debating that Ayers did bad things. He did.

Like you said, you think the association between Obama and Ayers can't be passed off as a distant association. I don't think so either, but I don't think it MEANS anything. In other words, I don't think Ayers' criminal activity (some 20 years prior to meeting Obama) can, in any way, reflect on Obama, who was 8 years old when they were done.

By the way (and these are MY words) Ayers DID go on to become respectable and mainstream. A college professor is a respectable job. Chicago University is mainstream... That doesn't mean I respect him. Many people respect him and he is a professor in a mainstream University. His IS "respectable and mainstream", at least in some people's opinion.

But Obama didn't say that.

I once was "friends" with a guy. I was in his house, spent the night, in fact, was friends with his girlfriend and we were associated for many months. I made some deals to get some microphones for his band and stuff like that. We helped each other out. He was a pimp! (I can't believe I'm telling this story here) But what does that say about me? How does his criminal activity reflect on me? How does my association with him taint who I am?

I cannot tell you how many associations I have had with people who were downright unsavory, and even criminal.

Barack Obama was a young politician. He (like every other politician I know) has had questionable associations in his attempt to rise to the top. You don't get to be a candidate for POTUS without making SOME questionable associations. No candidate's closet is bare.

I'm NOT defending Obama. I'm saying how I see this situation. This is why I don't judge Obama based on what I consider to be loose associations. Judge all you want, but if I judged everyone based on the actions of the people they hung out with, I would not have ANY friends.

Have none of you served on a committee with an unsavory person? Gone to church with someone who committed a crime? Have none of you ever been in the living room of a criminal? Maybe I've just known a lot of people in my life, but man! If I were judged by some of the people I have associated with, I'd be in jail!

And Obama has known a LOT more people than I have.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


Even though we disagree on the conclusions, I think that is a very fair reply.

Thank you.

Originally posted by BlueTriangle
So you're telling me that we can't assume that anything on Obama's official campaign website reflects his actual opinions?

Jesus... It was a quote made by Alexander Cockburn.
It's not the opinion of the website that Cockburn said it.
It's not Obama's opinion that Cockburn said it.
It's a FACT that Cockburn said it.

Mayor Daley said it, too. Actually, many people have said this about Ayers. It's THEIR opinion. Not Obama's.

If you guys really want to know the truth, it's out there. Why don't you do some research instead of asking me all the time???

I've said what I think. Form your own opinion.

Here are some starting points:
Washington Post

Obama Factcheck

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

Jesus... It was a quote made by Alexander Cockburn.
It's not the opinion of the website that Cockburn said it.
It's not Obama's opinion that Cockburn said it.
It's a FACT that Cockburn said it.

Than why did Obama's fact sheet describe him as "member of the establishment and friends with the mayor"? Its practically the same as saying "respectable and mainstream". Its OBVIOUS that's the image his campaign was trying to push of Ayers.

Look, we already know the media is pulling for Obama. If worse comes to worse, the media will use this ad to show how "evil" mccain's supporters are by reversing the accusation and saying, "Look at McCain's campaign. He's desperate to win, so he's construing lies about Obama in his favor. These are NOT qualities we should be seeing in a presidential candidate." I really don't think the ad will do much it terms of damage to Obama's campaign. If anything, the media will use it to make Mccain look worse. Think about it. Think about how much media you take in per day, and how much media focuses on obama and how much focuses on mccain. The media obviously wouldn't let this ad ruffle too many feathers because THEY want OBAMA to WIN.

The people who made this ad are the very same people that propagated the lie that John Kerry has protested with Jane Fonda at a rally against the war.

Their "evidence" was a picture of them together at the rally. What people STILL don't know is that picture was totally fabricated!! It was a photo shop of two totally different pictures, in two totally different places spliced together to make it look like they were side by side. Many people still bring this up as proof of John Kerry being friends with "Hanoi" Jane.




[edit on 28-8-2008 by nunya13]

Edited because I decided to make my point more succinct:

Why is it so incredibly horrible for the Obama campaign to recognize that this man who after 40 YEARS has since become a changed man. Is what he did terrible? Yes. Does Obama condone what he did? Absolutely not and he has said so.

Ayers is now friends with the Mayor of Chicago. Does this mean the Mayor condones what he did also?

He has become a very respected member of the community and promotes positive change.

Does what he did mean that, even though he has obviously reformed his life, no one should be associated with this man in any way, shape or form and he should be shunned by society?

Does anyone who has ever committed a crime deserve to be treated as a criminal for the rest of their life even though they have SHOWN to have made a significant change to become a better person?

I once stole clothes from a department store 9 years ago when I was a stupid teenager going down a long slippery slope but managed to pull myself out of it. Even saying that makes me feel like I am talking about a different person because that is not me anymore. Does that mean that all my friends support what I did back then?

Does that mean if I contribute a whopping $200 to Obama's campaign that he thinks stealing is right?

Please, use your logic...



[edit on 28-8-2008 by nunya13]

reply to post by Golack


LOL...


I'd love to see the ad with John Adams being the target...


"His cousin was a vicious terrorist who openly attacked the crown and tortured members of the British Military with tarring and feathering... He himself was key in the decision to attack the government of the colonies...

Do we know enough to elect John Adams?"


Come on people... rising up against your own government is one of THE MOST PATRIOTIC things one can do.

Look at everyone of the patriots from the revolutionary war. everyone one of them would be called terrorists today if they pulled that.

I can't believe people are still arguing over this rhetoric.

LOOK AT YOUR CHOICES, PEOPLE!

McCain or Obama. Neither are worth arguing about!!!

The country is going to stay in the toilet until we get out of this two party debacle we've allowed politics to hand us.

So, let's just lay off these hate threads why don't we? It's a waste of breath. Vote for McCain or vote for Obama ... they're both jokes that will make equally miserable Presidents.

[edit on 28-8-2008 by tyranny22]

Originally posted by dgtempe

In my heart, i dont think Americans take well to be led by a dark skinned person. Just my opinion, and i beleive i am correct.

I just want to point out that when you say something like this, it says alot about you as well.
I am sure when you said "Americans" you meant as in "them".. not "me"

I see a lot of this talk from Obama supporters and closet, unknowing or "guilty" racists (not saying you are one), like everyone's a racist and that'll be the mantra if he loses, always the finger pointing away from themselves. If Obama loses, we are just a racist nation.

Like there would be no other reason.

What happens if he wins? Do you keep it close to the vest to pull it out as a weapon or just use it as you probably do now?...

"I voted for Obama" will be the next "I have friends that are Black"

********

As far as Ayers is concerned the Video is dead on. The "research" I did turned up a little more than the Obama defenders here want anyone to believe. Do a few searches on google and you'll find what I found. DIG AND AVOID THE PARTISAN SITES.

Obama, while certainly not the guys best friend, does have ties.

I say don't let the Obama supporters cause you to dismiss facts. Don't let the McCain supporters do it either.


DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH

Originally posted by gormly
As far as Ayers is concerned the Video is dead on. The "research" I did turned up a little more than the Obama defenders here want anyone to believe. Do a few searches on google and you'll find what I found. DIG AND AVOID THE PARTISAN SITES.

Obama, while certainly not the guys best friend, does have ties.

I say don't let the Obama supporters cause you to dismiss facts. Don't let the McCain supporters do it either.


DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH

For someone with that image for an avatar you sure make quite a baseless claim that isn't backed up by any solid facts. So why don't you put your money where your mouth is and provide some reading material, since you apparently "researched" it so well.

reply to post by Dronetek


to kind of add to this statement.

does anybody else find it absolutely amazing that Ron Paul can have dirt kicked all over him because of the words of one of his assistants writing under his name, or a white supremacist group donating money to his campaign (remember, they have no control over what the people who donate them money do.) and people will defend this guy, with speculation on how, it's POSSIBLE to work together and not be friends, or that it's possible that he is reformed even though 8 years ago he was on the record, saying he is not remoseful for his actions... WAKE UP PEOPLE, he is nothing special, just the same empty suit, in a seriously corrupt organized crime syndacit (gov't)

i just think its your typical two faced double standard crap we always will get. i imagine A LOT of the people defending Obama over this disgusting little tidbit of information, are the saying people who were calling Ron Paul a racist scum bag when they found out that a white supremacist group donated to him.

So, how many people that support Obama hate those evil Republicans for lying about their Messiah also were willing to prosecute Bush over the forged documents?

I think that the people you associate with say a lot about you whether you like it or not.

Obama worked with that dude and he should have known his past. I do think that if I became pen pals with Ted Bundy people would start to worry about me and what I was going to do in the future...and yes it is the same thing just think objectively for once.

and that doesn't mean automatically objecting to my comments.

Originally posted by Alora

Originally posted by jetxnet
Obama should let this one slide-on-by. Afterall, he has nothing to worry about, right?

Sadly there are enough people out there who will believe anything they are told, so he actually does have something to worry about from those people.

So you are saying that Obama ISN'T FRIENDS WITH Ayers? Or are you saying that AYERS IS NOT A TERRORIST? Or are you saying that it shouldn't matter to us that Ayers is a terrorist and Obama is friends with him?

It seems like you are the one who is easily fooled into believing propaganda.

I really don't appreciate when people ASS-U-ME that because you defend a candidates actions means you support them.

This is exactly my point!

Just because Obama is associated with this guy 40 years after the fact means nothing.

Just because I'm not ripping Obama to shreds for this doesn't mean that I support him.

Not everything is black and white.

I don't like John McCain either, but I wasn't falling in line ripping him to shreds like everyone else because of that stupid house thing.

That last time anyone really knows of Obama's association with this guy was 10 years ago. Other than him donating to Obama's campaign.

Just because white supremacists donated to Ron Paul's campaign doesn't mean he's a white supremacist.

Joe Biden made an awesome point at the DNC last night. He said he considers John McCain his friend. Not the kind of friend that politicians like to call each other for pleasantries. He made it clear that he and John McCain ARE friends.

He also said that he doesn't believe John McCain is fit to run the country.

My point is that just because you associate with someone doesn't mean you have to support or buy into every single ideology that person has.

I know plenty of people whose pasts are shady and whose ideals are very far removed from my own. But you know what? They are good people with good intentions. Good jobs, decent families, good lives. I don't judge them because of their past or because i don't agree with everything they do or have done.

Show me something that shows this guy works with groups like the one he used to be a part of. Show me that he is a bad person who is selfish and is using force to promote his ideologies and then I rethink my stance.