My uncle hates the F-22A!

None of the (alleged) Russian posters on any of the aircraft/defence forums that I frequent poo-poo the F-22 at all. The general consensus is "whoa".

reply to post by walsbg22


F-22 isnt all that
without a computer flying it its just a paper weight
just like the euro fighter.

for the amount that the US spent on this plane
others would just work on better air defences to counter the newiest threat.

for every billion dollor problem there is a dollor solution

F-22 can be surpassed

[edit on 29-8-2008 by bodrul]

reply to post by bodrul


Without a computer, almost every aircraft built in the previous 30 years would not fly - and even if they could, the weapons could not. Air defense networks are dependant on computers - without them they would not function either.

To built an air defense network capable of stopping F-22 / F-35, it's going to be tens of billions of dollars.

[edit on 30/8/2008 by C0bzz]

I figured that maybe the F22 does indeed have a larger radar cross section than the F117 does, but the tradeoff was for much greater speed and manouverability.

Is this just incorrect?

reply to post by Fuggle


The F-117 is a 35 year old flying, faceted, dorito. F-22 is way more stealthy.

reply to post by C0bzz


and how much would you be willing to bet on that?
tens of billions of dollors
last time i checked the russians spend less and create just as formidble defences

also the f-22
is more then 20 years old in design as it was built for the cold war

[edit on 31-8-2008 by bodrul]

Originally posted by bodrul

F-22 can be surpassed

[edit on 29-8-2008 by bodrul]

I totally agree that F22 can be surpassed and by implication stealth countered. However, NOT by nations the US chooses to get into a war with.

The US will not end up having a war with a technologically advanced industrial nation which could develop or have capabilities to counter stealth, the F22 et al. F22 will be deployed against fly-blown poor nations or rich one's with no industry (i.e. oil economies), where it will excel in shooting down the odd clapped out MIG which manages to struggle into the air.

F22 is flashy tech whcih will never be pushed!

Regards

reply to post by bodrul


And what defenses are those? Are you going to pull the talk of the Su-35, like most others do? The raptor would still come out on top, this has been discussed before.

reply to post by Shugo


not really
i was more on development of Anti aircraft missiles and
better ways of tracking these threats then an actual air craft,

reply to post by bodrul


Then educate me, what does Russia have to offer that will outpower the F-22 when it is all said and done? The radar crosses are low, unless they're using a radar system that will find the F-22 before it's right in their face? I'm not sure what you are driving at bod, but help me understand

reply to post by Shugo


something i was watching on
biggest threat to air craft are anti aircraft missiles as they get more advanced
and have better tracking ability

the f-22 isnt invisible to Radar just has a smaller radar signiture then all other aircraft

and this is the 21st century where advances are being made every day

unless your saying Russia or any other country with the background cant develope systems to track the f-22 because of its small radar signiture

a good google search and you can get some pages on countries and companies working ways of countering the threat from stealth air craft

en.wikipedia.org...

Infrared (heat)

Some analysts claim infra-red search and track (IRST) systems can be deployed against stealth aircraft, because any aircraft surface heats up due to air friction.[9] These analysts also point to the resurgence in such systems in several Russian designs in the 1980s, such as those fitted to the MiG-29 and Su-27. The latest version of the MiG-29, the MiG-35, is equipped with a new Optical Locator System that includes even more advanced IRST capabilities.

Wavelength match

The Dutch company Thales Nederland, formerly known as Holland Signaal, have developed a naval phased-array radar called SMART-L, which also is operated at L-Band and is claimed to offer counter stealth benefits. However, as with most claims of counter-stealth capability, these are unproven and untested. True resonant effects might be expected with HF sky wave radar systems, which have wavelengths of tens of metres. However, in this case, the accuracy of the radar systems is such that the detection is of limited value for engagement.

OTH Radar (Over the Horizon Radar)

Over-the-horizon radar is a design concept that increases radar's effective range over conventional radar. It is claimed that the Australian JORN Jindalee Operational Radar Network can overcome certain stealth characteristics. [1]. It is claimed that the HF frequency used and the method of bouncing radar from ionsphere overcomes the stealth characteristics of the F-117A. In other words, stealth aircraft are optimized for defeating much higher-frequency radar from front-on rather than low-frequency radars from above.

There are unsubstantiated rumours that Australian civilian air traffic controllers have tried to contact, in-air, high-altitude, F-117A pilots crossing the Australian continent without airspace clearance due to datafeed from the JORC. Apparently there was no response from the pilots.

reply to post by C0bzz


Sounds like his uncle had to retire early because of the F-22 for some reason. That would explain the bitterness because he obviously would know that it is leaps and bounds better than any other aircraft.

reply to post by bodrul


I never said Russia doesn't have the capacity, I did hint at it though. But while we've heard much, we haven't seen much. What makes you think the Raptor won't adapt like the Nighthawk did?

reply to post by bodrul


If you know how stealth planes exploit the radar installations buy passing where they are weakest then I'm sure the Raptor will slide right through. Russia claims that it can track our stealth planes and they even say that their new ICBMS are stealth and can not be shot down.

One thing is for certain. Russia makes incredible claims yet they hardly ever back it up. If Israelis can fly right through the Syrians air defense witch is stronger than Iran's with no stealth you can only imagine what a U.S. pilot can do in a Raptor flying map of the earth.

I want to know when they plan on showing us the new recon plane or bomber that they have. I know the U.S. has one because I and the whole west coast of Florida heard it one night. Hopefully it looks like a B-1 but stealth and fast as heck.

reply to post by Shugo


true, to that the night hawk did adapt
but the counter measures also adapted along with it

problem with defence tec is that somewhere somebody will always work on or work out a solution against it,

reply to post by bodrul


I want to see Russia actually do something first bod. That's it on paper, but the idea:presentation ratio in Russia is known for it's all talk, no guts actions.

reply to post by Shugo


i want to see the US take the f-22
and test it on Russia its self

right now the f-22 is untested in combat and against a real threat against it

since from this prospective the US just screws with countries with an air defence network which is outdated or complety obsaliete which any 3rd world country could fly into.

Originally posted by bodrul
i want to see the US take the f-22
and test it on Russia its self

Why would we bother ourselves with? Test it against what?

right now the f-22 is untested in combat and against a real threat against it

The eurofighter, and Su-35, one russian craft, another European driven craft, stripped the F-22 is on the same level as the Eurofighter, I wonder what it would be like if it was loaded hmmmmm?

since from this prospective the US just screws with countries with an air defence network which is outdated or complety obsaliete which any 3rd world country could fly into.

Not our faults that those countries are the ones that pick the fights.

Bod, you just said yourself it is "untested with real threats", but where are you getting this information that Russian technology outshines or has an equivilant to the Raptor? You don't. It's all on paper, and on paper the Russians talk, physically they don't produce. That's all there is to it, and enough said. If you want proof of THAT just look at PAK-FA.

and how much would you be willing to bet on that?

My life.

And I'm dead serious too.

Look at the prices for the lastest SAMS systems... they're damned expensive. They're all incapable of handling the F-22 (effectively). And it's not just going to be F-22... got no. It's going to be a combined force of F-22, F-35, F-15E, F-16, F-18F, armed with SDB, JASSM, & JSOW. A ten billion dollar plus solution required? You can bet - or else it would obviously of been done already.

www.abovetopsecret.com...
And Russia is upgrading S-300 to S-400 which is also discussed there... not dramatically new technology... perhaps sometime late next decade when computer technology can filter out the Mosquito at 600 knots.

last time i checked the russians spend less and create just as formidble defences

They certainaly make do with what they've got. But just as formidable? Please. They lack in numbers, and to a greater extent, the new units lack in numbers, & lastly, they're usually not as capable as Western systems.

also the f-22
is more then 20 years old in design as it was built for the cold war

The EMD F-22 first flew in 1997... 11 years. Big friggen deal. The weapons it employs are for the most part brand new - SDB, JASSM, JSOW, AMRAAM-D & LJDAM. It includes technologies that are STILL not being implemented in new designs. Your point?

Oh yeah, and Russias S-300 was first introduced in 1978 & S-400 for the most part uses the same equipment & missiles. Su-27? 25 years. Aegis Combat System? 20 years. Are these supposed insinuate these are somehow outdated, uncapable systems?

Infrared (heat)

Show me a system, even one in development, that can detect targets at 100km+. I'm guessing you can't. Then, show me a system that can provide range information from the target. And then show me one that can IFF.

Wavelength match

] However, as with most claims of counter-stealth capability, these are unproven and untested. True resonant effects might be expected with HF sky wave radar systems, which have wavelengths of tens of metres. However, in this case, the accuracy of the radar systems is such that the detection is of limited value for engagement.

]

OTH Radar (Over the Horizon Radar)

ROFL.

JORN was never designed designed to provide firing data... I'm wondering why a F-117 was flying over Australia too. That's some incredible range from a fighter with a range of 930nm. Even if JORN detected F-117... the information is near useless for an intercept because it cannot provide firing data. And the F-18s are unlikely to get a lock until damned close - difficult for a target moving at mach .92.

Lastly, Russia does not have anything like JORN.

right now the f-22 is untested in combat and against a real threat against it

Please.

It's FAR more tested than 'anti-stealth' technology.

[edit on 1/9/2008 by C0bzz]

reply to post by C0bzz


tushay, got me there on that reply,

guess time will tell when its tested against russia or an actual nation that can repel boarders


one question your in Melbourne (isnt that in australia?) why not have a australian plane?

reply to post by Shugo


its not their fault they pick the fights, to much Fox news



[edit on 1-9-2008 by bodrul]