A question to sceptics.

I'm a skeptic, very much indeed, though I can't see how even contemplating comparison between alien piloted spaceships and a murder beef is legitimate.

Anyway.

People IN the UFO ' scene' seem to have blinkers on a lot of the time when it comes to the inherent flimsiness of all this stuff. Anyone, ANYONE can see that Strieber for instance was a B-Grade pulp writer who's books may have been slightly successful, but he was always a pimple on the ass of Stephen King (insert any name here). Surprise! He suddenly recalls 20 years of alien encounters, and reinvents himself a prophet, wise elder, bridge between our world and theirs (not to mention best-selling author). Not only that, but he gets Christopher Walken to play him in a flick. Not bad.

Travis Walton...we don't even need to go there. Dumbest con ever. And why does the film completely change his testimony? To keep up with current trends? Does his cred a lot of good.

Can someone explain why the grays always seem to target slightly goofy to begin with people? Sorry but most of the youtube abduction testimonies I've watched seem to be with hippies, crystal hugger's or slightly eccentric people.

Why can grays walk through walls? Does being from another world immediately mean the ability to violate simple physics?

Why is Budd Hopkins allowed to hypnotize people? He's an artist. Anyone with a modicum of sense can see he's filling these people's heads with alien mythology long before the session starts. Who is this man? And if the grays want to keep themselves quiet, why don't they silence him? Coming to think of it, if they're so advanced, why don't they just come up with a better way of hiding the 'memories' so old Budd can't extract them? He really believes he's doing good too. He'll take any victim of child trauma and turn it into a Close Encounter. It's frankly upsetting.

Why do the grays need to 'cross breed' anyway? Why, as an advanced race would they want offspring that is half human? Would we want children bred that are half cat or some other lower life-form?

Why are alot of 'experts' (not all but alot) merely Doctors in podiatry or some other small time field who simply read alot of Hopkins books?

Victims of sexual abuse often have screen memories too. How do we know the abduction phenomenon isn't that?

I was driving home one night when the car stopped. Suddenly a light flooded the car and through the windshield I saw three tall beings, ...dressed in shiny PVC. They had insect like eyes and long thin faces. Soon, I was aboard their craft...I saw hybrids, and was presented with a child that was half human, half alien...my...my...' daughter'.
See? I can do it to. That's because about 90% of the Western world can. It's pop culture now.

As for UFO's...I've never seen one. Neither did George Adamski, who the world once took as seriously as a lot of UFO buffs take Whitley. If there 'are' UFOs I'd put money on them being something military. Not a mystery as such...I'm sure if the f-117 Nighthawk had been seen flying over New York in 1950, they'd of cried alien too.

So, yeah. if such evidence was stacked against ME in court, I better learn how to not drop the soap. I'd be guilty. Simple as that. There is simply not one scrap of evidence that the alien phenomena is real. Stories, screen memories, and pop culture.

Thank you for your time.

[Mod edit to remove personal information]

[edit on 8/29/2008 by yeahright]

Originally posted by AlienCarnage
reply to post by Amaterasu

 

Disingenuous again...? Or are you suggesting the military had no interest in Roswell... Regardless of the investigators and their issues, I find it VERY hard to believe that the military mistook a weather balloon for a flying disk.

But you believe whatever you want to about that.

It has been stated that many of then advanced aircraft that the military uses now were still in developement back then.

It wouldn't be a stretch to say that possibly the UFO that was recovered at Roswell would more likely have been one of the test flights for said aircraft.

Except... I believe it was 1954 that the US made a secret contract with the Grays... So what crashed at Roswell is guaranteed to have been alien.

Not knowing all the goings on in the military it would easily be mistaken for an alien craft, and there would have been a cover up by the military in order to keep anything of said aircraft out of the public eye, because news travels fast and would easily have reached the enemies of the country at the time, which would have made us lose any "leg up" over them that we would have had.

I agree there was a cover-up. But not of anything the military was working on. No top secret weather balloons. It was a "flying disk." And it was alien.

Most likely said officer would not be given any reason for the cover up, so his belief would be that an alien crash was being covered up, not a secret test of a military craft.

Absolutely. I am sure he didn't mistake a weather balloon, Mogul or otherwise, for a flying disk. And surely, because he came out and said that it was a flying disk, he had had no instructions about flying disks.

Yes it was a horrible cover to use a weather baloon for a cover up, but in another way it was ingenius, people including the officer knew it was a cover-up, but the military knew it would lead people to think aliens and not towards secret military operations. This would lead people away from the truth in the search for the truth.

Oh, believe me. They REALLY don't want us to have the truth, because they would have had to admit to aliens back then - and they wanted any tech they could skeef, without the world knowing - and they surely don't want to disclose NOW, because they would have to admit that they agreed to let the Grays take us (against our will), do experiments on us (against our will), and otherwise mess around with us (against our will) - as well as admit they have no control over the Grays and that the Grays have violated the contract by not only abducting us, but killing us as well.

It is possible that the craft being tested is still in developement, or that after the accident they put that particular craft on hiadus, or it could be one of the ones that was diclosed late 80's early 90's.

Except that it was alien...

This is my view, whether it be truth or not, we might never know.

But we have data which give us a good clue... Read The Terra Papers. (Again, they were written BEFORE Star Wars. They initially read like bad scifi, but if one keeps at it, the whole falls into place by the end. They are some of the history of Earth (Eridu) as told to the Hopi by an alien (Blue, it would seem) that was rescued from a UFO crash in 1947 and was both hidden from the military - who showed up shortly after the rescue - and nursed back to health. Glossary to help keep things straight found here, twice: www.abovetopsecret.com... )

reply to post by Amaterasu

Except... I believe it was 1954 that the US made a secret contract with the Grays... So what crashed at Roswell is guaranteed to have been alien.

Where is your proof on this? If it is fact please provide proof. If you can not substanciate such clames you should not make them. It is proven fact that the military has been running top secret aircraft missions fo decades. All you have to do is a google search to find the evidence. All a google search does to the info you presented is display belief and unsubstanciated claims. If you can not find the sites that substanciate the information I have presented as evidence, let me know and I will do the work for you and display the liks to those sites for you.

And I have read the Terra Papers. This information is not proof just more unsubstanciated claims.

[edit on 8/30/2008 by AlienCarnage]

Glad to see that my first thread has generated this much discussion.

Thrashee: As to your apology, eh doesn't matter. I had been drinking a bit that night also. Funny thing about that. When you drink and try to keep your thoughts clear, it often doesn't work. haha. Reading back over my postings I'm finding it hard to even understand what I was thinking while typing. I apologize also. I nearly butchered my own thread!

I'm having a problem with the 1942 L.A. Battle. Not the rebuttal of the evidence itself, but something else entirely. It seems to me that this occured too long ago to be of much use one way or the other. Which is leading me to believe that there is another unexplained in the entire phenomena. It seems as if people have some sort of amnesia block to these sorts of events.
For instance, not long ago I was perusing through the MUFON case studies to find out that in 1976 there was a mass sighting in my OWN HOMETOWN! I had never heard of it! Well, in reading the reports I started recognizing names (small town and they were police officers, real estate agents, business owners, etc.) Now, I wasn't even born until 4 years later, but I decided to start asking people around town if they remembered that event. NO BODY, save ONE person knew what the hell I was talking about at all. I found that very odd because the story made the front page of the paper and "flooded the radio station the following morning." At the time there was a lot of hype surrounding the field due to the large flap going on. Eh, this is just something that has occupied my thoughts for the last few days. I can't explain it.

As far as the premise of the thread being faulty goes, no, it's really not. The thread premise was a simple question... A bit of a baited question, granted, but just a question the same.

[edit on 31-8-2008 by Jay-in-AR]

[edit on 31-8-2008 by Jay-in-AR]

[edit on 31-8-2008 by Jay-in-AR]

Anonymous poster: I'm not so sure it is as simple as that. I mean sure, there is a tremendous amount of pop culture involved here. Hypnosis is absurd in this regard. However, I am much more interested in the military's actions here.
Take, for instance, Roswell. I know that we all know the story and that this has been brow beaten to the point of no return. What *I* find fascinating is that we see a military press release telling the world we have captured a flying saucer. Alright, lets stop there because we know they recant. Recently in FOIA declassified documents we know that the wreckage of WHATEVER that was was sent to Wright Patterson Airforce Base in Dayton, Ohio.
Where it gets interesting is the fact that Wright Patterson is home to our ONLY KNOWN reverse engineering lab at the time.
Five years later Project Silverbug was undertaken AT Wright Patterson. Now, if you haven't looked at Silverbug, you should. It is a fascinating project. It is, in FACT, a flying saucer. Vertical takeoff capability with flying speeds of over 2,000 mph, if it ever got off the ground.
We KNOW they were working on it, we can SPECULATE with pretty good grounds WHERE THEY GOT IT, it is now just a matter of pressing them to see how far the project got.
I am as certain as the world is round that A GREAT DEAL of the UFO reports are military in nature, but I have a hard time believing they used that pop culture mentality to literally create these things out of midair at a time that they were just moving away from prop planes.
No sir, in my mind, they reverse engineered this thing from somewhere, most likely alien craft. I mean, we were at the forefront, behind the NAZI's, of earthly tech and I know that the NAZI's were working on this stuff also, but I don't think they were that far along with it. I could be wrong, but I don't think I am.

You see, I'm not "just another believer" I have done this research and drawn what, I believe, to be the most logical conclusions.

Originally posted by AlienCarnage
Where is your proof on this? If it is fact please provide proof. If you can not substanciate such clames you should not make them. It is proven fact that the military has been running top secret aircraft missions fo decades. All you have to do is a google search to find the evidence. All a google search does to the info you presented is display belief and unsubstanciated claims. If you can not find the sites that substanciate the information I have presented as evidence, let me know and I will do the work for you and display the liks to those sites for you.

And I have read the Terra Papers. This information is not proof just more unsubstanciated claims.

Well... None of us have "proof." (Those military boys are quick to yank any we might produce!) At least none that would satisfy you. None beyond adding the pieces, connecting the dots, calculating the probabilities.

I will presume you are not short on data, given that you have read the Papers and all. This leaves an inability, whether from a physical lack or an emotional tie to a paradigm, to make the connections, piece the puzzle together, calculate the probabilities.

[shrug] You go on about your beliefs, then.

I remain skeptical on the extraterrestrial angle. HUMANOID beings from distant civilizations abducting us is absurd and just a modern version of ancient fairy abduction/vampire/demon visitation lore. Answer me what possible use probing has for an advanced civilization? Why do they need to repeat their breeding experiments when they could simply use one DNA strand from one human being to create thousands of offspring? Why the need to go door-to-door so to speak, time and time again? Why hasn't a 'saucer' crashed in New York yet? Why is it always so far from the eyes of average, middle class society? So many holes. The sad thing is, I could easily write a 200 page story, claim it as true and many people would believe me. Not only that but I'd be rich, famous and not stacking donation carts at Value Village for a paycheck.

Hmmm....

Anyway, I'm not saying I'm totally unbelieving.

I have theories too. I live in Melbourne Australia. Not fifteen minutes from my house, black triangles were video taped (the Pascoe Vale Triangles on Youtube). Faked? No. Stealth craft being tested by the authorities? 99.9% yes. What better way to test than to do so over our suburbs? See how long it takes to get noticed? They LOOK military. They ooze stealth weapon. Millions upon millions of dollars goes on these bizarre little experiments. We pay for it without even knowing. Will we be seeing black triangles over Iraq or Iran anytime soon? It's probably happening right now.

Now, as for alien abduction, I believe that a lot of these people THINK something happened. They are genuine is their testimony at least. If we're to take Strieber on his 'word', for a brief moment, he saw beyond the 'gray' visage, and saw human beings injecting him in the head. Men and women like you and me. Anyone who has seen footage of young soldiers being used as guinea-pigs, locked in cubicles and drugged with hardcore psychoactive substances (all experimental, and all for weaponary purposes) know's it's more than possible that people of power are responsible for the entire alien illusion. Is it paranoid to say that the government, or at least a branch of it, are entering civilians houses, abducting them at random and using them to test psychosis inducing cocktails? Covering it with plot-holed fantasy stories of beings from another world? It probably is paranoid, but alot easier for me at least to swollow. I think the alien situation is a ruse. A large percentage of society believe aliens are real, thus they're probably not. Nothing is as it seems. People hate Bush pointlessly for instance. Bush is a puppet, an image, a projection of what people would like us to believe real. Behind him is the truth. What we believe most of the time is a manufactured idea to help cloak the truth.

I know I sound REALLY paranoid now, but still, the idea of ' certain people' playing with civilian minds with the intention of perhaps unleashing such discoveries on enemies is alot more believable than races from beyond the stars. I just don't buy it. Never will.

reply to post by Anonymous ATS


Thanks for your comments, Anon. Have you read The Terra Papers... (Linked in my sig.)

Although they start sounding like bad scifi (I nearly quit reading them for this reason), by the end it is likely you will have a paradigm shift as I did.

Just know that the Papers PREDATE Star Wars - there is one element that will leave you thinking of Star Wars for sure. But since the Papers are a recounting of what an ET taught the Hopi, and Joseph Campbell spent much time with the Hopi and likely learned the ET's story, and since Lucas was a good friend of, and mentored by, Campbell... This might explain the specific similarity.

The Papers answered all my WHY's about my Universe. Your Universe may differ.

reply to post by Amaterasu


It is not my belief, I can back up my statements with fact, can you? Oh yes you state the "papers" (I refuse to refer to them by name) as proof, just because the pre date "Star Wars" and lucas may have borrowd concepts from these stories of lore, does not make them true. Jules Verne wrote many stories that were advanced for his time, but that dose not make them non fiction. Use hard evidence not something that can easily be explained as fiction.

Proof of my statements is all around in the military. Just look at the military technology we have now, most of it developed in secret and tested where if seen by ordinary people at the time, would have looked alien. Where is your proof to be found?

[edit on 9/4/2008 by AlienCarnage]

Originally posted by AlienCarnage
reply to post by Amaterasu

 

It is not my belief, I can back up my statements with fact, can you? Oh yes you state the "papers" (I refuse to refer to them by name) as proof, just because the pre date "Star Wars" and lucas may have borrowd concepts from these stories of lore, does not make them true. Jules Verne wrote many stories that were advanced for his time, but that dose not make them non fiction. Use hard evidence not something that can easily be explained as fiction.

Proof of my statements is all around in the military. Just look at the military technology we have now, most of it developed in secret and tested where if seen by ordinary people at the time, would have looked alien. Where is your proof to be found?

Is it possible that BOTH can be true, and the reason military have what they have is because BOTH are true?

And actually... Any "proof" you have is secret. So you don't have any either.

reply to post by Amaterasu

And actually... Any "proof" you have is secret. So you don't have any either.

Actually the proof I have is in the now declassified aircraft we see in the news that used to be top secret in the 80's, Stealth Fighter and Stealth Bomber ring a bell??

Yes there are still classified aircraft as well, but the declassified ones are all the proof I need, and to claim they came from backwards engineered Alien tech would just be speculation on anyones part claiming that.

Originally posted by AlienCarnage
reply to post by Amaterasu

 

Actually the proof I have is in the now declassified aircraft we see in the news that used to be top secret in the 80's, Stealth Fighter and Stealth Bomber ring a bell??

Let's examine this. From the '80's they had stealth - and the first publicized crash was in 1947 (and I believe the "aliens" (Grays) have not been forthcoming in providing tech willy-nilly)...

So is it possible that stealth was just one of the things the military got from back-engineering? Is there other information that was back-engineered?

Yes there are still classified aircraft as well, but the declassified ones are all the proof I need, and to claim they came from backwards engineered Alien tech would just be speculation on anyones part claiming that.

Yeah, except for the sightings of alien beings by hundreds of thousands of humans, many extremely credible. And you add to it the initial publicized incident - with the "flying disk" comment, and you might also speculate that there was some back-engineering going on from much earlier.

But with all those witnesses, one has to give heavy credence to the idea that aliens (non-human intelligent lifeforms, whether ET or home-bred) are involved.

[edit on 9/5/2008 by Amaterasu]

reply to post by Amaterasu


Credible?? Explain this, what makes them credible? Is it the phisical evidence they provided??? No, there was no physical evidence provided. Testimony can be discounted without physical proof. Many of the stories if you listen to them are not consistant through thrier retelling of them, and those that are sound as though they are rehearsed. This can not be used as evidence. Your opinion or someone elses that these are credible whitnesses does not matter. The fact is there is not tangeble proof to prove your point.

Originally posted by AlienCarnage
reply to post by Amaterasu

 

Credible?? Explain this, what makes them credible? Is it the phisical evidence they provided??? No, there was no physical evidence provided. Testimony can be discounted without physical proof. Many of the stories if you listen to them are not consistant through thrier retelling of them, and those that are sound as though they are rehearsed. This can not be used as evidence. Your opinion or someone elses that these are credible whitnesses does not matter. The fact is there is not tangeble proof to prove your point.

Ah. I see. That is why we do not convict anyone of a crime if all we have is 27 witnesses? We need physical evidence? That is just the most absurd position I have heard of.

Well, clearly you have decided to discount testimony from people in military, police, doctors, reporters, dentists, scientists, intelligence, professors, writers, dog groomers, and every other occupation - BY THE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS - because they (all!?!) can be discounted from lack of evidence.

I roll my eyes.

Have a nice life, then.

reply to post by Amaterasu


I discount testimony for the following; just because they are doctors police officers, ect does not make them credible. Due to stories in the media, when people see something they can't explain their subconcious remembers these stories and replaces facts with pieces of fiction thus these stories can not be considered for evidence. Which is why you can not use court case scenarios when analizing the daya from cases such as these. You have to look at things from a non biased point of view with no preconceived ideas of anything.

Ufo pictures/vidio

When looking at a UFO you can't automatically think alien, you have to discount what it might be first and if it is impossible to make out to be able to discount what it is, you have to leave it as unidentified, not post alien label on it. Unfortunately there have been no clear pictures that have been bothing more than terestial aircraft other than ones that have been proven to be fakes.


Eye witness testimony

When looking into eye witness testimony you have to listen to every interview given to see if there stories mach each and every time, most do not including doctors, police and military officials, which indicates either lying or them not truly being certain of what they saw, in either case this testimony has to be dismissed.

In other eye witness testimony there is either too much vague data, or what they are discibing could possibly be of terestial origin, they just lablel it as alien.

The third bit of testimony that have been provided are scripted and you can tell they are, which can easily be thrown out.

This leaves us with the last bit of testimony, and very minimal part of this "evidence". These are people who truly believe what they saw, but have no proof to back up what they saw other than scorch marks on the ground and burnt bushes, which this has all been labeled inconclusive thus far.

Abductions

This information falls the same as eye witness testimony with a very minimal amount of people that can realy be examined as they seem truthful because they truly believe they were abducted. Althogh interesting, this is still hardly proof.

So what about areas that show impact and burn marks? Well many of these are still under investigations. If the scientific investigations reveal that theas are infact caused by alien craft, then that will be a step in the right direction for providing proof.

Edit - some spelling corrected, some not.


[edit on 9/9/2008 by AlienCarnage]

Originally posted by Amaterasu

Ah. I see. That is why we do not convict anyone of a crime if all we have is 27 witnesses? We need physical evidence? That is just the most absurd position I have heard of.

But surely, if a crime has been commited, then there will be evidence too support these 27 witnesses? Or can I just grab 27 people at random and use their statements without anything to support it? Mind you that worked in the witch hunts!

Originally posted by Amaterasu
Well, clearly you have decided to discount testimony from people in military, police, doctors, reporters, dentists, scientists, intelligence, professors, writers, dog groomers, and every other occupation - BY THE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS - because they (all!?!) can be discounted from lack of evidence.
quote]

What an absurd thing to say! Why should these people be exempt from human error? An unusual phenomena without any reference point can foll the best of us, regardless of whether we are bin men or surgeons! You have to understand that the human mind is easily fooled. It sees patterns in things that's it's job, even if there's not enough information there. Now I couldn't discount completely the idea of aliens visiting us here on Earth, evidence for such a conjecture requires a bit more evidence than what we have so far. Statements whether they're from bin men of surgeons are just not enough.

reply to post by AlienCarnage


All very good points AlienCarnage!

Originally posted by AlienCarnage
reply to post by Amaterasu

 

I discount testimony for the following; just because they are doctors police officers, ect does not make them credible. Due to stories in the media, when people see something they can't explain their subconcious remembers these stories and replaces facts with pieces of fiction thus these stories can not be considered for evidence. Which is why you can not use court case scenarios when analizing the daya from cases such as these. You have to look at things from a non biased point of view with no preconceived ideas of anything.

I agree there is a percentage for which this might be true. But to discount them ALL is asinine...in my opinion, of course. Even discounting a full 50% one is still left with hundreds of thousands. And many reports are not from people who sound like they're "confused," "grasping for explanations," and so on. They are rational and certain.

And you say, "You have to look at things from a non biased point of view with no preconceived ideas of anything," after saying, "I discount testimony..." ALL testimony, it would seem. So YOU must not be coming from a "non biased point of view," because ANY testimony is thrown away out of a bias against testimony.

When looking into eye witness testimony you have to listen to every interview given to see if there stories mach each and every time, most do not including doctors, police and military officials, which indicates either lying or them not truly being certain of what they saw, in either case this testimony has to be dismissed.

How often do you have multiple witnesses of the same event to compare? Or are you suggesting that Joe Policeman's testimony of his experience on May 1 should match Suzy Doctor's experience on June 1? Most of the time, it's not more than one witness, and I have found that most multiple witness accounts tend to generally agree.

Maybe you can provide me with specific examples...?

In other eye witness testimony there is either too much vague data, or what they are discibing could possibly be of terestial origin, they just lablel it as alien.

Well, doubtful in the cases of witnessing alien beings, which is what I was talking about.

The third bit of testimony that have been provided are scripted and you can tell they are, which can easily be thrown out.

Hmmm. Maybe I CAN'T tell... Please elaborate. Let me in on the specifics of these "scripted" testimonies.

This leaves us with the last bit of testimony, and very minimal part of this "evidence". These are people who truly believe what they saw, but have no proof to back up what they saw other than scorch marks on the ground and burnt bushes, which this has all been labeled inconclusive thus far.

Ok. But if you have even tens of thousands with these stories, some are likely to be true - especially with anomalous evidence (scorch marks, etc.).

This information falls the same as eye witness testimony with a very minimal amount of people that can realy be examined as they seem truthful because they truly believe they were abducted. Althogh interesting, this is still hardly proof.

Again... Hundreds of thousands... That's a lot of witnesses. Some have reported horrific experiences. Others are shown around, told things, taken to other places and so on. If we presume multiple races with multiple objectives, this would make sense.

So what about areas that show impact and burn marks? Well many of these are still under investigations. If the scientific investigations reveal that theas are infact caused by alien craft, then that will be a step in the right direction for providing proof.

I seem to recall seeing a show where the marks had very unusual magnetic or radiation readings in general, and compared to the surroundings specifically. Wish I could remember where...

Anyway, one other thing to add to the determination of whether aliens are visiting. Though some say crop circles are made by drunk college students (and some are, I don't doubt), there have been cases where complex designs have appeared in the space of an hour, and some of the designs are so complex that to create them by stomping is impossible overnight.

On top of that, I recently keep seeing circles with tufts in the center stull standing. If the circles are made by putting a rope in the center and stomping around using the rope as a guide...the tufts of standing grain would be impossible. And if someone wanted to create a circle with a tuft at the center without a guide... They would be hard pressed to accomplish this so precisely in the dark.

And add to all that, there have been anomalous magnetic and radioactive readings in most of the circles. (The ones lacking such are usually simple in design, have no central tufts, and probably were created by drunk college kids.)

So I take testimony, figuring some percentage is real, and add the Circles, and I come up with enough evidence to say there are aliens among us.

Originally posted by timelike

Originally posted by Amaterasu

Ah. I see. That is why we do not convict anyone of a crime if all we have is 27 witnesses? We need physical evidence? That is just the most absurd position I have heard of.

But surely, if a crime has been commited, then there will be evidence too support these 27 witnesses? Or can I just grab 27 people at random and use their statements without anything to support it? Mind you that worked in the witch hunts!

Not necessarily. There have been cases where the ONLY evidence is the testimony of multiple witnesses. As for grabbing people at random, let's avoid silliness, eh?

Originally posted by Amaterasu
Well, clearly you have decided to discount testimony from people in military, police, doctors, reporters, dentists, scientists, intelligence, professors, writers, dog groomers, and every other occupation - BY THE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS - because they (all!?!) can be discounted from lack of evidence.

What an absurd thing to say! Why should these people be exempt from human error?

ALL of them!?! ALL!!!???!!! I never said a percentage might not have an erroneous story to tell. But it is being suggested that ALL of them are erroneous. And *I* say that is shear BS.

An unusual phenomena without any reference point can foll the best of us, regardless of whether we are bin men or surgeons! You have to understand that the human mind is easily fooled.

Some much more than others. And some testify with clarity, detail, and calmness. Some seem confused, grasping to explain, and so on. The ones who are rational and can give detail and clarity, I would give high likelihood that their stories are real.

It sees patterns in things that's it's job, even if there's not enough information there.

Somehow "seeing patterns" is not what's happening to those who are taken aboard a ship, shown around, shown information, and so on.

Now I couldn't discount completely the idea of aliens visiting us here on Earth, evidence for such a conjecture requires a bit more evidence than what we have so far. Statements whether they're from bin men of surgeons are just not enough.

And I say, by virtue of the sheer VOLUME of testimony, we can credit a few.

If only 50 people in the world were making these claims - then I would say, yeah, not likely. But with hundreds of thousands, and many of whom friends and relatives have said were never into aliens or any of that until whatever incident took place, I HAVE to give some credit. The specific percentage is unclear, but once ONE is given credit, one has aliens among us.

reply to post by Amaterasu

How often do you have multiple witnesses of the same event to compare? Or are you suggesting that Joe Policeman's testimony of his experience on May 1 should match Suzy Doctor's experience on June 1? Most of the time, it's not more than one witness, and I have found that most multiple witness accounts tend to generally agree.

It is actually "Joe Policeman's" testimony that does not corelate to his own later testimony. Just pick an interview of an eye witness testimony then find that same eye witness giving there testimony in another interview a week or two later, the two rarely match up.

I throw out testimony because their veiw is subjective and because people can't keep their stories strait even ones who believe what they saw will have varied stories of the event. Which makes them very difficult to use as any kind of evidence.

I want hard facts, to which there afre none currently.

Photos are just not conclusive enough as well as vidios, especially with 3d graphics programs getting as good as they are for low prices. So you realy can't trust this as evidence.

Honestly I don't know what proof I am looking for, I just know I have not seen proof that I can believe yet.

I am not trying to tell you what to believe, I am just trying to explain where I am coming from.