DNA ID problems with aircrash victims?

This article states that some of the victims from the plane crash in Spain last week, may not be identified.

SOME of the 154 people who died in last week's Spanair jet crash, Spain's worst air disaster in nearly 25 years, may never be identified, Interior Minister Alfredo Perez Rubalcaba said today.

"Will anybody remain unidentified? I can't say at this moment but the possibility exists,'' he said during an interview with news radio Cadena Ser.

Eighty-six bodies have so far been identified and the task should be completed using DNA techniques for the remainder over the coming days, he added.

"We are working day and night, and well, but since the process started it has become more difficult than we expected due to the bad state of some of the DNA samples,'' said Rubalcaba.

How easy is it to identify alleged victims from a plane crash? Given that the Spain plane was not purposefully crashed at high speed, would the corpses be in better condition for DNA samples to be taken? If some of the DNA samples are in a bad state, then how bad would the alleged DNA samples have been from the alleged 911 planes?

How many of the alleged victims from the four 911 planes have allegedly been identified by DNA? Where is the chain of custody that proves this?

I don't need official believers telling me that this has been discussed to death. I'm asking the questions in light of the recent Spain crash and their take on the DNA situation.

Originally posted by tezzajw

"We are working day and night, and well, but since the process started it has become more difficult than we expected due to the bad state of some of the DNA samples,'' said Rubalcaba.

How easy is it to identify alleged victims from a plane crash? Given that the Spain plane was not purposefully crashed at high speed, would the corpses be in better condition for DNA samples to be taken? If some of the DNA samples are in a bad state, then how bad would the alleged DNA samples have been from the alleged 911 planes?

How many of the alleged victims from the four 911 planes have allegedly been identified by DNA? Where is the chain of custody that proves this?

I don't need official believers telling me that this has been discussed to death. I'm asking the questions in light of the recent Spain crash and their take on the DNA situation.

Fair questions Tezz... Allow me to attempt to shed a little light.

The crash in Spain was obviously not like those of 911. Let's look at the crash in Spain. It was not so much the impact that killed the people as it was the fire. The bodies from what I believe were charred. We all know intense heat over an extended amount of time will definatley destroy DNA.

How long did the bodies burn and what was the impact? Thats an important key here. How long were the tissue samples exposed to extreme heat?

Does Spain have access to the same DNA testing facilites? Will the US be assisting? Another thing to look at.


I would like to go flight by flight, but I really don't have too much time. (at work today, boss is around)

Simply put, I would have to assume that the impacts played a key roll in what was survivable and what was not regarding tissue samples.

At ground zero there were large teams of forensic anthropologists that scoured the areas. DNA samples that were found were found in many places, including roof tops, streets, etc.

I believe the total number of passengers on flight 11, where body parts were identified was 35. 33 until April 2007 when one of the flight attendants DNA was found. Another victim was identified a short time after that using a newer technology.

NY Daily News, 8th September 2002
DNA extractions were done on every one of the 19,906 remains, and 4,735 of those have been identified. As many as 200 remains have been linked to a single person.

The 1,401 people identified include 45 of those aboard the hijacked planes - 33 from Flight 11, which struck the north tower, and 12 from Flight 175, which hit the south tower

Who They Were: Robert C. Shaler

By April 30 2004, 52 of those aboard Flight 11 were identified, 45 by DNA. 26 of those on Flight 175 were identified, 26 by DNA.

Flight 93, all victims were identified through DNA, or dental records.

Flight 77, all but 1 victims were identified.

DNA Process:

DMORT was in charge of DNA collection, etc. They worked side by side with local authoirites. For flight 11, 175, and flight 93.


www.dmort.org...

Flight 77 DNA collection information can be found hereit goes over somewhat the collection process etc.)

www.historycommons.org...


Later on tonight, (of this afternoon) I will try to get more info. I am on a work computer. Not much info at my fingertips.








[edit on 25-8-2008 by ThroatYogurt]

Originally posted by ThroatYogurt

By April 30 2004, 52 of those aboard Flight 11 were identified, 45 by DNA. 26 of those on Flight 175 were identified, 26 by DNA.

Flight 93, all victims were identified through DNA, or dental records.

Flight 77, all but 1 victims were identified.

Gee, all that and still no DNA evidence for the following.

1. No DNA evidence showing passengers from the planes were in the buildings.

2. No DNA evidence showing all the hijackers are dead.

Originally posted by ThroatYogurt
Does Spain have access to the same DNA testing facilites? Will the US be assisting? Another thing to look at.

Yes, I would imagine Spain does. Not sure why you'd think they wouldn't, being a developed, wealthy first world nation and an EU member..

Having said that, some of the best DNA/Forensic science labs in Europe are in the UK and are often involved in cases from around Europe and even the world.

As for the topic, I would imagine being grilled alive by burning aluminium and kerosene would denature your DNA. After all, it is essentially proteins which do not respond well to temps above 40C, let alone several hundred or thousand C.

Originally posted by stumason

As for the topic, I would imagine being grilled alive by burning aluminium and kerosene would denature your DNA. After all, it is essentially proteins which do not respond well to temps above 40C, let alone several hundred or thousand C.

I don't disagree. Just throwing that out there as a question mark as I am not familiar with Spain and their procedures.

I also agree with your statement about being gilled alive. The thought makes me ill. But that is kind of the point I was making. Prolonged exposure to that type of heat will destroy all DNA. (creamation)

The victims that were identifed through DNA were because those pieces of tissue were not exposed to the heat. The impact. (flight 93) caused body debirs to be scattered in an area outside the crater and also inside the crater. That is why all the victims were identifed.

Again, with the impacts like at the Pentagon and the Towers, there was a large impact where human debris were scatterd over a wide area.

The Paris crash, I am not aware of how far away human remains were found. That being said, they have identifed (or will be able to) the vast majoirty of the vicitms.

Thanks Stum*

-TY-

Originally posted by ThroatYogurt
I also agree with your statement about being gilled alive. The thought makes me ill. But that is kind of the point I was making. Prolonged exposure to that type of heat will destroy all DNA. (creamation)

Well if you guys did more research you would find that NIST had to come up with new DNA testing just for 9/11 becasue of the degraded DNA samples.

www.nist.gov...

Due to the nature of the World Trade Center disaster, it quickly became evident that traditional methods for performing DNA typing were not likely to be fully successful in identifying all of the recovered remains. Traditional DNA ID methods depend on the presence of long, intact segments of DNA in order to accurately type the sample. The DNA in many of the samples recovered in this situation were so fragmented that these standard methods were ineffective.

In early November 2001, Dr. Robert Shaler, the director of the WTC DNA identification effort, contacted me and asked if I would be willing to develop some new DNA tests to help in the identification effort. I agreed to fast track our research efforts over the next several months and produce some test materials for his laboratory to try by January 2002.

Originally posted by ThroatYogurt
Let's look at the crash in Spain. It was not so much the impact that killed the people as it was the fire.

Fair enough. I can understand that fire destroys a person.

Originally posted by ThroatYogurt
Again, with the impacts like at the Pentagon and the Towers, there was a large impact where human debris were scatterd over a wide area.

In case you missed it, ThroatYogurt, the alleged planes that allegedly hit the towers EXPLODED upon the alleged impact. Not only that, the resulting fires were allegedly intense enough to collapse two 100+ story skyscrapers. How would any human DNA have a chance to survive that?

Remember, the official story - hot fires, melts steel, collapses towers.

Using DNA technology seven years ago, how was it possible to make a positive ID, when the DNA technology in use today, is still having difficulty identifying the Spanish victims?

If fire is hot enough to melt steel, then shouldn't it be hot enough to destroy the DNA of all the alleged plane passengers.

I wish that some believer in the official story would show me convincing evidence that planes, with people inside them, hit the towers.

[edit on 25-8-2008 by tezzajw]

Originally posted by tezzajw

Fair enough. I can understand that fire destroys a person.

That's not what I was saying. I was saying that it is more than likely that the victims of the Spain crash survived the crash. The fire is probably what caused their deaths. As is typically what causes death in plane crashes.

Remember, the official story - hot fires, melts steel, collapses towers.

No, thats not the official story. The NIST report does not mention fires melting steel.

Using DNA technology seven years ago, how was it possible to make a positive ID, when the DNA technology in use today, is still having difficulty identifying the Spanish victims?

From the article you posted, answers your question. The DNA samples are in bad shape.

Also in the article it states:

"If the sample can be matched to someone close like a brother or father it is easy but when there are only distant family members available it becomes much more complicated,'' he added.

I don't understand why the folks in Spain are not attempting to collect personal belongings such as toothbrushes..etc. (they may be) But this shows that they have a few things not going in their favor.

If I can mention one more thing from the article you posted.(not relevant to this discussion) Seems in 2003 Spain fudged up identifying the bodies of 62 peacekeeping troops who died in an air crash in 2003 and some were buried by the wrong families.

If fire is hot enough to melt steel, then shouldn't it be hot enough to destroy the DNA of all the alleged plane passengers.

1- Steel was not melted by the fires.
2- Once more- Some fragments of body parts were not subject to the extreme constant heat, post impact.

Originally posted by tezzajw

In case you missed it, ThroatYogurt, the alleged planes that allegedly hit the towers EXPLODED upon the alleged impact.

In case you missed it sir....

Read a little about Stanley Praimnath:

"Suddenly I see this big gray airplane with red letters on the wing and tail filling my window," Praimnath says. "It’s coming right at me."
Praimnath drops the phone and tucks under his desk in a fetal position as the plane obliterates the wall. The impact is a prolonged, gut-wrenching screech, a hideous, metallic roar. "It sounded like a huge steel cage being ripped apart," Praimnath recalls. Intense smoke and soot punctuate the agonizing explosion.

A flame interrupts the awful blackness, revealing a protruding aircraft wing blocking the exit only 20 feet away. I’m going to die, Praimnath thinks. Yet he cries out to God.

www.stanleypraimnath.com...


I wish that some believer in the official story would show me convincing evidence that planes, with people inside them, hit the towers.


DNA is evidence. The fact that all these people are still missing and still dead for that matter is evidence. You sir, for some reason choose not to accept it.

After reading your signature, I am only left to assume that you present this no plane theory as a way to as you put it "troll."

No worries though

reply to post by tezzajw


Let me shed some light on this for you!
They need to send their DNA samples to the United States.
Because they are the best for testing for something that is not there.
I hope that help

Originally posted by ThroatYogurt
In case you missed it sir....

Well, you must have missed it, ThroatYogurt. If you believe that planes hit the towers, then you would believe that the video evidence shows large explosions, as the planes imapact into the towers.

After reading your signature, I am only left to assume that you present this no plane theory as a way to as you put it "troll."

Don't believe everything you read, ThroatYogurt. Would a troll read the NIST report and find an error in the units they used?

[edit on 25-8-2008 by tezzajw]

reply to post by tezzajw


Glad I could help answer your questions Tezz.

If you would like to learn more about the DNA collection and identification process, please let me know.

I have read a few papers on it and would be more than happy to share them with you.

No problems, ThroatYogurt.

Now to convince me that UA175 and AA11 allegedly crashed into the towers, you'll have to show me that two identifiable planes were used and that they both had the alleged people on board. I can't believe that a plane has people on board, unless proven so.

How am I supposed to believe that the identified DNA of the people allegedly on the planes was found at the scene? Where is the chain of custody from collection, through to analysis?

Book "FIREFIGHT" by Patrick Creed/Rick Newman goes into detail
concerning the recovery of body parts in the Pentagon (including those
from Flight 77) . Fire crews, Fema search and recovery teams with
dogs and FBI evidence recovery teams searched the ruins for
aircraft parts and human remains. When remains were located were
photographed in situ before being removed. Only person not identified
was 2 year on Flight 77 where no reference sample could be provided.
Hijackers were identified by process of elimination - remains where
no reference sample were assumed to be hijackers, including pair of of brothers

reply to post by tezzajw


Start here it is a 142 page report. You may learn something.

This here
will take you through some of the process. (there are names so you can contact them yourself.

If you would like to further your research on the DNA collection and identification process, I can forward you some information to contact DMORT.

I know you wont want it though.

reply to post by thedman


thedman... I have to pick up that book. I heard so many good things about it.


Tezza...if you are interested in the DNA collection/identification process at the Pentagon.. this article may assist you:

911review.org...


Glad that I could be of some assistance.

-TY-

[edit on 25-8-2008 by ThroatYogurt]

reply to post by ThroatYogurt

I'm more interested in the twin towers.

Anyway, I've scanned over that document fairly quickly and I can't see maps of where the alleged DNA was collected. I thought there might have been a report showing where each piece of DNA was found at ground zero, who found it and the chain of custody to identify it. Typical crime scene stuff that can be used as evidence.

reply to post by tezzajw


I suggest you read it more thoroughly.

Would you like the contact information of those that were in charge at Ground Zero? (DNA Recovery etc?)

I will post it ..ONLY if you promise to use it.

Originally posted by ThroatYogurt
If you would like to learn more about the DNA collection and identification process, please let me know.

Then you shoud be able to answer this question.

How did the DNA from the passengers get identified BEFORE the new NIST DNA testing was ready?

Rememebr the new DNA testing was not ready for testing unitil 2002.

In early November 2001, Dr. Robert Shaler, the director of the WTC DNA identification effort, contacted me and asked if I would be willing to develop some new DNA tests to help in the identification effort. I agreed to fast track our research efforts over the next several months and produce some test materials for his laboratory to try by January 2002.

[edit on 26-8-2008 by ULTIMA1]

reply to post by ULTIMA1


Ultima,

Really, are you that clueless? They were continuting to develope new ways to identify the remains. Not all the remains had been identified. THAT is why they were attempting to develop new ways to identify the DNA that hadn't already been identified.