Christianity is Imploding!

reply to post by whatsup


I like the idea that we can all have differing views and that we live in a time of enlightenment. In times past we would have been burned at the stake for such heretical words, and beliefs!

Instead of referring to Bible quotes or dithering about semantics I thought I would just share my own outlook on the subject at hand. I stress "my own" because I feel anyone's relationship with God, Creator, Higher Power, is ultimately a personal experience. If you attain some kind of divine inspiration by meeting with like minded people in a church or prefer to just take great joy in sitting under a tree by a river the final outcome is something that you alone will have.

As far as Christianity imploding I see a somewhat more sinister thread unraveling, at least in the US. The separation of church and state was instituted for a reason. The intent was to prevent the formation of that type of ruling class (see priests) that had been so prevalent throughout human history. The imposition of one group's world view on others without their consent and the insistence that only they are right so you must obey or be cast aside. The most recognizable example of this, at least to Americans, would be certain Islamic countries where official government doctrine is strongly influenced by a group of religious zealots. (hmm)

Certain "faith based initiatives" are becoming more obvious in our political system and quite frankly, it disturbs me. We are passively giving more and more voice and influence to religious groups who are trying to impose their beliefs on the remainder of a nation who might not share their view. (hmm)
Since when is there a requirement that the President of the United States be Baptist, or Catholic, or Jewish, or believe in God for that matter? Why has there become this ugly display by politicians trying to prove they're more righteous than the other guy and posturing in ways so as not to piss off our own home grown zealots. I see a slippery slope dead ahead. Better grab onto something solid and hold on.

Now some points of interest:
America is the most powerful nation in the world and what happens here can be seen in repercussions over the globe.
Certain Christian groups are demanding more representation in the decisions and policies made by "our" government, perhaps not realizing (I'm being kind here) that they are also trying to impose their "world view" on the "world". Maybe they should take into account a few simple statistics before they proclaim their importance.

(All numbers are in millions, approximate, rounded and real easy to confirm; US Census, United Nations, etc. This is just to prove a point.)

World population: 6,500, US population: 300 (4.6%)

World Religions: Christian; 2,151.5 (33.1), Islam; 1,319.5 (20.3), Hindu; 864.5 (13.3), Chinese Folk; 409.5 (6.3), Buddhism; 383.5 (5.9), Indigenous Tribal; 260 (4.0), Irreligious/Atheist; 929.5 (14.3), other; 182 (2.8).

Religion in US: Christian; 235.5 (78.5), no reported religion; 42 (14.0), all other religions; 22.5 (7.5).

Christianity in US: Protestant; 51.3%, Catholic; 23.9%, Mormon (love these guys for my own warped reasons, I live 10 miles from Hill Cumorah in upstate NY, the Mormon "Mecca"); 1.7%, other; 1.6%.

Summation: All Christians in the US still only account for 3.6% of the world. Assuming that the most outspoken group probably falls under the Protestant stat. that number drops to 2.4%. Also assuming that not all Protestants carry the same view of the "silent majority" as Spiro Agnew coined them (remember him?), that number is probably even lower. So, here we have it folks, the "silent majority" isn't really very silent, and they definitely are not the majority in America; < 40%.



[edit on 27-8-2008 by zlots331]

I should add to my previous post that the aspect of my life that I find just as important as my spiritual well being is the ability to develop a sound sense of humor. If you go around life pissed off all the time because someone doesn't share your point of view you're in for a miserable existence. Lighten up, and try to keep an open mind. "Your mind is like a parachute, it works best when open".

Check out the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster for a funny, and quite serious at the same time, alternate view of "organized religion".

I'd like to make this point. It almost seems to be fashionable to say to people "stop being so dogmatic and accept my right to believe differently"
I will respect a person's right to believe in whatever so long as A) they won't push it on me, and B) that it isn't blindly adopting what someone else (ie guru or preacher) is saying, outright or at least challenge those beliefs. Most of my christian friends are halfassed like that.

Originally posted by zlots331

America is the most powerful nation in the world and what happens here can be seen in repercussions over the globe.

But America isn't the most power nation anymore. With the awful economy, the addiction to war and the peoples' failing faith in congress and the establishment, America has fallen from number 1#

Originally posted by MatrixProphet

Thank you so much for your post. U2U me if you ever want to.

Yea I was going to but ATS won't let me till I make at least 20 posts. Anywho, I was going to ask you where I could find some good research (preferably internet-at least atm) of the christian myth. Your member page suggests you've done a bit.



Getting back to the original topic. I think it's pretty clear that indeed, christianity is fading. But what i'd like to know is how? Are they dividing into smaller pseudo-religions that inter-conflict or is there just more and more dropping their faith? And what does that mean for the rest of us?

Originally posted by zlots331
I should add to my previous post that the aspect of my life that I find just as important as my spiritual well being is the ability to develop a sound sense of humor. If you go around life pissed off all the time because someone doesn't share your point of view you're in for a miserable existence. Lighten up, and try to keep an open mind. "Your mind is like a parachute, it works best when open".

Check out the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster for a funny, and quite serious at the same time, alternate view of "organized religion".

Herehere!!

On a side note, Im just watching Spongebob Squarepants and Patrick made a reference to the apocalypse. I sometimes forget how much the end of the world idea is mashed it to culture.

reply to post by whatsup

Just one honest look at nature with all of its predation, domination, and "survival of the fittest" should lay to rest any notion of a predetermined "loving" creator. From this perspective of a creator, the same God who created us also created viruses to destroy us! For eons before man appeared, nature has been rife with tooth, claws, fangs, poisions, venoms, barbs, and thorns.

No offense, but this is nonsense. Nature is not malevolent. Nor is it benevolent. It's neutral. It has both the capacity for great mercy, cooperation, and symbiosis as it does for predation and domination. Which side you fall on tells a lot on how you look at the world at large.

"Survival of the Fittest" is a bunk notion and misconception that has only existed in popular vernacular. It was never proposed by Darwin or the major evolutionary proponents who first worked out the method by which life diversifies. It's a myth and meme that perpetuates with no regard to accuracy. "Survival of the fittest" is a very simplistic concept which basically says, "Might makes Right". However, to be accurate, the correct term to describe nature would be "Survival of the most adaptable". This is a more complicated term to deal with, because it encompass not just brutal savagery - but subterfuge, symbiosis, altruism, etc.

Just because "God" allows such things a viruses and predation, doesn't mean he's not a loving god. However, I do think it's indicative of a god who doesn't have a personal relationship with each and every one of his creations. To assume that he does is nothing more than modern Geocentracism - wherein, perhaps through observations of the natural world we may concede that the Earth is not the center of the universe, but that "WE" - humanity - are the center and focus of God's world. Very presumptuous of us, I think.

In one of the episodes of the Cosmos documentary series by Carl Sagan the worlds religions were in focus. One thing I noticed when it referred Hindi. Out of one of a really old 4th century text, it was said that man was just something in the imagination of God or perhaps God is something in the imagination of man. They were the first people to consider that maybe god(s) did not exist.

They also said the divine "knows or he may not know." It's surprising to think that fundamentalism is still rife.

1 timothy 6:4,

he is conceited and understands nothing; but he has a morbid interest in controversial questions and disputes about words, out of which arise envy, strife, abusive language, evil suspicions.

this is probably the most meaningful passage in the bible to me.

read it carefully.

reply to post by Lasheic

No offense, but this is nonsense. Nature is not malevolent. Nor is it benevolent. It's neutral.

Exactly! A careful reading of my post will reveal that I said the divine (ground of being) was "amoral" (different than "immoral"). Nowhere did I say that nature was malevolent in my post, and I was only responding to any Christian notion of a pre-existenting, loving, caring "creator." Therefore, I agree with you!

reply to post by MatrixProphet


I like people to react on my post like you did MatrixProphet. This shows great humility and endeavour of searching for the truth. We after all seeking the same thing…The Truth.
Your quote:
“Is this based on personal opinion or are you referencing something?”
What I am talking about is the 2000 years of Christian (all “Jehovahnist” religions) dogmatic machine has in truth implemented the greatest burden of all which is the religious way of thinking in all aspect of our life. There is not one aspect of the life of a person that has not been affected by this mechanism.
The shadow instigator of the religious institution didn’t care about Jesus, Mohamed, Abraham, Moses or any other teachers. What they care about is the implementation of a structural state of mind where by no one can escape the dogmatic way of a dual reality. It is not by chances that 3 great religions had emerged from a single one, it is a design of intent to numb all the deep core of spirituality in humans. Jesus had accepted the role of evil in his own spiritual evolution, in which case I strongly believe that he came to challenge the dark forces so to embrace and show they divinity which still reside in them.
Your quote:
“As far as the definition of "individual" are you not speaking of anti-dependence?”
In-dividual.
It is indisputable evidence that there is oneness behind duality. Indivi-duality: the excellence of being indivisible and eternal. Jesus in my opinion has taught this notion of been indivisible unite that is part of God.
Some Asian esoteric teachers have tolled us that we have a “Monkey mind”. Oriental philosophers urge you to awaken from the egotistic dream where we human have entrapped ourselves into, to erase the illusion of been detached or superior of the natural order of the universe. In the same time those Oriental philosophers tells us that it is unlikely that a human can achieve this form of liberation because we are born “machine” and we cant expect too much from a “machine“ hence they compassion philosophy. This is a half truth as much as the Western philosophers tell us that we are free and conscientious and do not have to awaken from this fanciful idea that we are the chosen one of god or science, brought to us courtesy of all the “singulus” spiritual or not view point, hence the western revengeful philosophy.
The fundamental dilemma about power is compassion; we can’t dissociate supremacy of thoughts with out involving love which is – if found- the supreme face of free will.
If one inters the realm of mystical reality, one has to subtract him self from the condensation of matter where light and darkness convene and divide. It is Jesus teaching.
To have acquired this state of mind is to have reach the ultimate goal of this condense physical world where we live; the real love.

kacou

Originally posted by Deaf Alien
reply to post by MatrixProphet

 

No, Christianity is not imploding, although I wish it would. It has stood strong for 2,000 years through various persecutions, scandals, even debunkings. So do not expect it to implode.

What is more likely is that it will continue to break into factions which each group will put forth new interpretations of the bible.

Religions are like cancer. They breed somewhere and start to grow and continue to grow and will continue to grow until something stops it. Whatever it is that stops them, I wish I knew. Maybe alien landings will stop them lol. Maybe even that won't stop religions from continuing.

I don't believe in alien visitation nor an intervening GOD, although after looking at the way you disrespect others that don't follow your line of thinking I would rather be in a room of Christians than a room full of people with your mentality.

I guess movements based on differing faith will rarely get along be it Christianity or UFOology, just try to have some respect for others and keep in mind that although in your mind there is no evidence for religion, the same can be said about UFO's, Ghosts, Psychic abilities.

Originally posted by spitefulgod

I don't believe in alien visitation nor an intervening GOD, although after looking at the way you disrespect others that don't follow your line of thinking I would rather be in a room of Christians than a room full of people with your mentality.

I guess movements based on differing faith will rarely get along be it Christianity or UFOology, just try to have some respect for others and keep in mind that although in your mind there is no evidence for religion, the same can be said about UFO's, Ghosts, Psychic abilities.

How was I being disrespectful to the others? Let's look at this at a different angle. Would you agree that any form of dictatorship government is like a cancer, like communism and nazism? Would you agree that thinking that way is NOT being disrespectful to the people who believe and support that form of government? Would you want those people to see the light and be free?

Would you agree that you and I would love to see those people free? Let's substitute this form of government with the word religion. Religion has done worse damage than any form of government. It has killed, pillaged, plunged, enslaved, destroyed families, etc more than any form of government. So how was I being disrespectful?

Now you mentioned UFO's, ghosts, psychic abilities having no more evidence than religion. Take a look around in ATS and any other sites. You will see way much more evidence than some "god" and some people claiming to be messengers of "gods." Even if you don't agree with some of the evidence, at least you HAVE something to see and touch and judge for yourself.

reply to post by Deaf Alien


It's what people chose to do in the name of religion which is bad, the principles of religion I don't think are at fault as for the most part preach, "do not kill", "do not steal" etc, as for governments, if there was no government there would be no order, for mass population it's a necessary evil. True, it shouldn't interfere in people’s lives to the extent that it does but it's there to organise the logistics of having large populations and without it we'd be screwed, a form of leadership has always existed be it the Alpha male, Head chief or the big boys we see today, people need leaders.

Although ATS maybe full of people stating “I’ve seen an alien ship”, “I was visited”, “I’ve seen a ghost” this is all just the same as people who state “I’ve been touched by god”, “I’ve seen a vision” etc, it’s all individual experiences that cannot be verified. Sure there are actual videos of UFO’s but there is no evidence to state that any of these are of ET origin and are usually debunked. There are examples that cannot be explained and are quite convincing even to skeptics but this is also true for religion, it's all faith based and is down to you whether you believe it or not, but that’s for another thread.

Originally posted by spitefulgod
reply to post by Deaf Alien

 

It's what people chose to do in the name of religion which is bad, the principles of religion I don't think are at fault as for the most part preach, "do not kill", "do not steal" etc,

Okay, now remove religion. What will people choose? Maybe there will be more peace if there was no religion? Maybe there wont be any division between people and nations? You see the point.

About morality like "do not kill"... we already know that. The values is inherent. We do not need some holy books or preachers drill that in our heads. It is already given. We are smart enough to figure things out.

as for governments, if there was no government there would be no order, for mass population it's a necessary evil. True, it shouldn't interfere in people’s lives to the extent that it does but it's there to organise the logistics of having large populations and without it we'd be screwed, a form of leadership has always existed be it the Alpha male, Head chief or the big boys we see today, people need leaders.

True, we need a minimal form of government. It is very natural to form families and communities where everyone help each other and mutually benefit each other. It's the idea like dictatorship and communism that is destructive to the wellbeing of the communities. Much like religion.

Although ATS maybe full of people stating “I’ve seen an alien ship”, “I was visited”, “I’ve seen a ghost” this is all just the same as people who state “I’ve been touched by god”, “I’ve seen a vision” etc, it’s all individual experiences that cannot be verified. Sure there are actual videos of UFO’s but there is no evidence to state that any of these are of ET origin and are usually debunked. There are examples that cannot be explained and are quite convincing even to skeptics but this is also true for religion, it's all faith based and is down to you whether you believe it or not, but that’s for another thread.

Yes you are right, that's for another thread. It's too easy to go off topic sometimes

Originally posted by Deaf Alien

Originally posted by spitefulgod
reply to post by Deaf Alien

 

It's what people chose to do in the name of religion which is bad, the principles of religion I don't think are at fault as for the most part preach, "do not kill", "do not steal" etc,

Okay, now remove religion. What will people choose? Maybe there will be more peace if there was no religion? Maybe there wont be any division between people and nations? You see the point.

About morality like "do not kill"... we already know that. The values is inherent. We do not need some holy books or preachers drill that in our heads. It is already given. We are smart enough to figure things out.

as for governments, if there was no government there would be no order, for mass population it's a necessary evil. True, it shouldn't interfere in people’s lives to the extent that it does but it's there to organise the logistics of having large populations and without it we'd be screwed, a form of leadership has always existed be it the Alpha male, Head chief or the big boys we see today, people need leaders.

True, we need a minimal form of government. It is very natural to form families and communities where everyone help each other and mutually benefit each other. It's the idea like dictatorship and communism that is destructive to the wellbeing of the communities. Much like religion.

If you want us to live in smaller easily manageable groups then I still believe it would fail, one group would have a better plot of land or more resources, and someone else would want it and try to take it. There are always people out there who like power, who like to kill and these people would be the one who gain power, gain control and form their own dictatorships.

I’m with you I’d prefer to live in a smaller, friendlier community but unless we decide to take a select few off to a desert island we will always be stuck with the government, for better or for worse.

Originally posted by Lasheic
reply to post by whatsup

 

"Survival of the Fittest" is a bunk notion and misconception that has only existed in popular vernacular. It was never proposed by Darwin or the major evolutionary proponents who first worked out the method by which life diversifies. It's a myth and meme that perpetuates with no regard to accuracy. "Survival of the fittest" is a very simplistic concept which basically says, "Might makes Right". However, to be accurate, the correct term to describe nature would be "Survival of the most adaptable". This is a more complicated term to deal with, because it encompass not just brutal savagery - but subterfuge, symbiosis, altruism, etc.

Just because "God" allows such things a viruses and predation, doesn't mean he's not a loving god. However, I do think it's indicative of a god who doesn't have a personal relationship with each and every one of his creations. To assume that he does is nothing more than modern Geocentracism - wherein, perhaps through observations of the natural world we may concede that the Earth is not the center of the universe, but that "WE" - humanity - are the center and focus of God's world. Very presumptuous of us, I think.

Hello all, new here and just couldn't pass up on this.

What makes you think that just because God allows bad things to happen to us, it means he does not have a relationship with each of us? Who's to say that he doesn't want these things to happen to us because we need to experience pain, and so does he. With out knowing hate, how could you possible know what love is? God can not know our love for him, without experiencing those who do not love him. Take for example someone who is color blind. If all they can see is shades of grey, how can they conceive reds, blues, greens, etc.?

Hey purevil1
Were you quoting that scripture trying to say that it was Jesus they were describing in that passage ?
I sure hope not ..because your not correct ..

1Ti 6:3 ¶ If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, [even] the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

1Ti 6:4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,

1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

1Ti 6:6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.

reply to post by MatrixProphet


All the religions I know of are only a way to "control" and "separate" the people of this most wonderful world. You see, there is only one true God and we are all an extension of his love. One should not think that any one book can express the love, or give direction as to the way we are to live our lives with God. We should all search our own thoughts and hearts for that. For we are all different and yet the same. For Gods love flows through each and every one of us. We all look out our own window. Let us pull back the drapes wide so we may have a clear view. Peace is the way.

reply to post by MatrixProphet

A last point from him; “I came to think that my earlier views of inspiration were not only irrelevant, they were probably wrong. For the only reason (I came to think) for God to inspire the Bible would be so that his people would have his actual words; but if he really wanted people to have his actual words, surely he would have miraculously preserved those words, just as he had miraculously inspired them in the first place. Given the circumstance that he didn’t preserve the words, the conclusion seemed inescapable to me that he hadn’t gone to the trouble of inspiring them.
_____________________________________________________________

Inspiration is a personal phenomia, and is not something that someone or somethig does to you. You can be inspired to right about furniture, but the furniture doesn't inspire you to right about it, you are inspired.

If you study the linguistics of Mathew you find that the language is indictive of someone living 200 years after the time of Esu (Jesus), yet there are redletter editions of the KJV where Mathew directly quotes Esu? There are many examples, but the scope of this reply dosn't merit going into them.

Plus the SCHOLARS of The King had their misgivings as well. There are numerous example of using colqueal terms that mean different things, rather than the greek terms, direct translations. one example is the term "shambles", to us means disaray, but in the Greek is a "meat market" yet they translated it wrongly. I'll have more, as time goes on...

reply to post by Simplynoone


im not correct now, ok.

i didnt write the words, it was straight from the bible. the meaning is the same.

as to what i meant by it, decide for yourself.

remember it is not about being correct, is it?