Untersberg - The Mystery Mountain

Hey guys i was looking at the symbol on the iron door from seti's trip; and i noticed it looked a lot like an old alchemy/chemistry symbol.

I was able to find some info here ::
www.symbols.com...

It may not be the same but interesting nonetheless

Im still on page 42 of the thread but i thought this might be some helpful info to add

Seti's pictures are located on page 31 if anyone wants to compare

[edit on 27-1-2010 by evantide]

OK i finally caught up!
I just wanted to offer some insight on the "iron door" that was mentioned previously.

One thing that we can consider is perhaps the door remains hidden due to an optical illusion, and can be seen via certain angles only. Or it can only be viewed during a solar/lunar eclipse [stretching it i know].

The first is more plausable in my opinion.

Originally posted by evantide
OK i finally caught up!
I just wanted to offer some insight on the "iron door" that was mentioned previously.

One thing that we can consider is perhaps the door remains hidden due to an optical illusion, and can be seen via certain angles only.

It's not a bad idea.
(I don't feel that's what happened, but it is a valid thought.
And, after all, what do I know...? )

Also, yes, there seem to be a few clues indicating possible ties with alchemy (which would be in keeping with the esoteric traditions of the time and space - but it's a very long story and it's well past 1 a.m. here... )


And BTW...

S. d. d. occo. x. Satrnrop, 5. a. f. 5. l. d. P. 6. m. 6. a. t. 5. q. o. t. m. 5. r. u. a t. m. 519. r. l. v. e. p. 55. a. tt. tt. l. x. missm ariu. a. o. u st g c x 5. l. 19. alto mvraco mic r l y. pymi. l o p m i. v m l t. t g

SATRNROP: If the first part is Saturn it might be of interest that Ops was Saturn's wife.
(I do NOT think it's relevant - I am only brainstorming here.)

IF it does refer to Saturn, then it might indicate an astrological aspect that, again, might be linked to alchemy (which is strongly associated with astrology).

Personally I find ALTO MURACO most interesting.
If it is Latin, it COULD (but probably doesn't) refer to the latinised name of an "upper" place: Ober-... ??? (of which, of course, there are many nearby) - but please, note that such names were, to my knowledge, regularly latinised as SUPERIOR (not "altus")

Anyway, if it is Latin, it would be the fourth (I think, I could be wrong!) conjugation of the adjective.

Also, mura is the Latin word for "wall(s)".

And it is important to keep in mind that individual words and/or their abbreviations are often linked (into one) in Latin inscriptions.

But I wonder whether it's Latin at all.

Anyway, just free associating here.





















[edit on 27-1-2010 by Vanitas]

Personally I find ALTO MURACO most interesting.
If it is Latin, it COULD (but probably doesn't) refer to the latinised name of an "upper" place: Ober-... ??? (of which, of course, there are many nearby) - but please, note that such names were, to my knowledge, regularly latinised as SUPERIOR (not "altus")

Anyway, if it is Latin, it would be the fourth (I think, I could be wrong!) conjugation of the adjective.

Also, mura is the Latin word for "wall(s)".

And it is important to keep in mind that individual words and/or their abbreviations are often linked (into one) in Latin inscriptions.

But I wonder whether it's Latin at all.

Anyway, just free associating here.

[edit on 27-1-2010 by Vanitas]

interesting association:
alto muraco = high wall

in the valley you find a location called "hochburghöhe"
well, how is it to translate?
high castle altitude ?

this location ist a most fascinated place:
is is the place where you can see the sunrays coming through the devils hole in the lattengebirge - mountains compared to the untersberg.
and this event is on a special date:
the winter solstice

it is very possible that lazarus passes this place when he climbed up the mountain coming from bad reichenhall

Originally posted by Vanitas
Thank you very much for the data.
Do you know, have there been any attempts of interpretation published?
(I am asking because I googled for some of the terms of the "code", but the results mostly pointed back to ATS and to your forum.)

i dont know but i will try to see the writings in the archive of the museum.

in the valley you find a location called "hochburghöhe"
well, how is it to translate?
high castle altitude ?

Upper Castle Heights... more or less.
(The "castle" referred to probably being a - walled, obviously - fortress, considering the time and place the castles of the area were built in.)

this location ist a most fascinated place:
is is the place where you can see the sunrays coming through the devils hole in the lattengebirge - mountains compared to the untersberg.
and this event is on a special date:
the winter solstice

it is very possible that lazarus passes this place when he climbed up the mountain coming from bad reichenhall

Very interesting!
Thank you very much.



[edit on 28-1-2010 by Vanitas]

S. d. d. occo. x.
Satrnrop, 5. a. f. 5. l. d.
P. 6. m. 6. a. t. 5. q. o. t. m. 5. r. u. a t.
m. 519. r. l. v. e. p. 55. a. tt. tt. l. x. missm
ariu. a. o. u st g c x 5. l. 19. alto mvraco
mic r l y. pymi. l o p m i. v m l t. t g

Just in case that some of the above refers to measurement units (unlikely, or somebody would have figured it out by now, I imagine?), here are two good links:

Bavarian (and other) measurement units as of 1842

(The units covered existed well before 1842, naturally.)

and

Old German units (for cartography purposes)

Both resources are in German only, sorry.
(But feel free to add resources!)

Also, keep in mind that folk language often had its own "versions" of common terms.

I am personally now very wary of the accuracy of the report of the inscription, or whatever you want to call it, apparently seen by Lazarus inside the mountain.

It would be easy to recall, after the event, an inscription that said, for example, "SVRGETSATVM", or similar, however the possible "true" inscription, as advised by WhiteEagle, would take some remembering......

For me, i need to see some evidence of the "true" inscription, before i'm willing to give it any credence, purely because it would be so difficult to be able to remember it, and describe it afterwards.

In the various versions of the tale i have seen recorded, it always refers to the "SVRGETSATUM", and so on the balance of evidence, at the moment, i'm more inclined to believe that this is the version.

As for checking out the Salzburg museum, the website seems to offer no information whatsoever, and so a visit is a must. If, as WhiteEagle says, there is something in the museum from Lazarus himself, or a written record of the time relaying the story, then i would obviously be guided by what it says.

I suppose now i have to add Salzburg Museum on my list of places to visit if i get there any time soon.

So that's the Kehlsteinhaus, Berghof, various other former Nazi buildings, 14 churches (or is it 12?!), the museum,as many caves on the Untersberg as possible, two Isais temples......at this rate there won't be any time for beer!!


[edit on 30-1-2010 by BlueOrb]

reply to post by BlueOrb



I suppose one could ask the museum for a digital scan of the inscription, so there would be no need to actually go there and rummage through their archives. (In my experience, however, such requests can be costly, financially speaking. Unless, of course, ATS is willing to set up a research fund? )

You're right, of course, in that the inscription would be too long to memorise: dear old Lazarus would have had to be a prodigy (then again maybe he was, for all I know) OR would have had to have writing material ready at hand, OR would have had to have used some sort of mnemotechnic trick - which could also imply familiarity with the subject.)

So... what do we do now?

(Whatever it is, I am willing to pay for the beer! )




[edit on 30-1-2010 by Vanitas]

reply to post by Vanitas


I reckon it will only be solved with a physical visit to the museum, which is what i plan to do when i get myself into gear and make it over there. Even then, we don't know exactly what is there, if anything, to shed more light on this. Perhaps someone local might make it there first.....?!

And i'll hold you to the beer!

Ok.... I admit it.....the inscription is really bothering me now!

I'm revisiting the (long) story, and the latest source i found, quoted earlier (www.wfg-gk.de...), tells the story as follows:

Lazarus goes up the mountain with another man, Martin Elbenberger, and they climbed the mountain until they reached a ravine/gorge called "der hohe Thron" (The High Throne). They saw the inscription on a stone, in silver lettering (S.V.R.C.E.T.S.A.T.V.S). They looke dta this inscription for a while, before returnign down the mountain. Back in the town, they discussed the inscription, and Martin Elbenberger asked Lazarus to go back the next day, and either bring back the stone that the inscription was carved on, or write it down on a piece of paper. So the next day, Lazarus went back up the mountain, and WROTE DOWN THE INSCRIPTION.

The way Lazarus wrote the inscription down, is specifically referred to in the above source, as "mit aufmerksamkeit", which translates as attentively or diligently. So this being the case (if we are to believe this version), you would have to say that it is more likely that the S.V.R.C.E.T.S.A.T.U.S. or S.V.R.G.E.T.S.A.T.U.M. or some other version that has been corrupted as the story has been retold, is the truer version, as it was (apparently) written down.

Lets not forget, that after returning from the cave, Lazarus never told anyone what he had seen for 35 years, and then died shorlty afterwards.

So, "Arise, that which is sown" or "Let that which is sown, rise" is where i'm at with this at the moment.

Could it even stretch to "As you sow, so shall ye reap"???

Back to the story above, it mentions the place of this inscrpition as "der hohe Thron". This is more than likely the "Hochthron", as it is referred to today, which is one of the peaks of the Untersberg.

So Lazarus has written the inscription, found it too late to go back home, and so stayed on the mountain overnight. The next day, as he wakes, is when he sees the monk. After the initial chat (Who are you, from where, let me gibve you something to eat and drink, blah blah blah.....

"Dann giengen sie miteinander von diesem Orte, wo sie geredet haben, wiederum zum hohen Thron. Da kamen sie zu einer eisernen Thür. Diese machte der Mönch auf."

"Then they left this palce together, where they had spoken, back around to the Hohe Thron [or Hochthron?]. there, they came to an iron door. This, the monk opened........"

And so begins the experience inside the mountain.

So, is the Hochthron near to the cave which we suspect may be known as the "eisernen Thuer"? If it is, maybe we have a possible location for the entrance to the mountain, leading to the 12 doors to the 12 churches, and the location of the inscription that is bothering me so much.............

Of course, if i was anywhere near to being diligent, i would have checked out the location of the Hochthron before this post.

But i'm not. And i didn't. Shame on me!

reply to post by BlueOrb


I see somebody is in high gear (again)...

The tentative interpretation of the supposed inscription is not a bad idea - not at all - in my opinion.
Of course, it opens the question WHAT exactly were they referring to (by "sowing" and "reaping", I mean, as I doubt it would be just a pedestrian lesson on morals).

I still think an email to the museum would be the most practical solution to find out what the inscription says in the first place.

And i'll hold you to the beer!

Oh, I have no doubt about that.
(But if you or anyone actually manage to find a shortcut to Alexandria or wherever, I am willing to pay for a bottle of Dom Perignon - upon your safe return... )

Just to confuse things further, there are TWO "Hochthron"'s on the Untersberg - The Salzburger Hochthron and the Berchtesgadener Hochthron.

I suspect that the photo of the cave entrance with the red water (that is on White Eagle's site, not here!), is somewhere near to the Berchtesgedener Hochthron, but a quick view on my Google earth also shows red staining on the rocks near to the Salzberger Hochthron.

The story i related in the previous post mentions that Lazarus stayed came to a ravine/gorge that was called the Hohe Thron, and not a peak. I suspect that this, over time, became the peak itself. So if thgere is a ravine on the mountain called the Hohe Thron, then that will give us more of a clue as to where this is. (Note - there a quite a few ravines in the slopes of the Untersberg.....)

re-Hi guys, I've been away a while, and just caught up. A thought: do you think there is any merit to perusing "spinoff" tales (like Rip van-Winkle) for any simlilar corelations of stuff like "time-sleeping", dwarves, ect? Just wondering what the theme-linkages might turn up.

reply to post by BlueOrb


Oh, yes, by all means, do confuse me some more... It's always good for the mind.

Clearly an expedition is needed.
Then again, I am sure White Eagle and/or others have combed the area far and wide. Perhaps he - or someone else familiar with the area - can tell us more about the location?

Also, I am sure there must be specialised maps of the area, with every single ravine duly marked. I haven't searched for them (yet), and I doubt there would be any available online, but surely they must exist.
A military map - a Spezialkarte - would be especially useful.
(To think my grandpapa had a whole crate of them - referred to as "junk", by some of my not-so-wise elder relatives, and treated accordingly...

)












[edit on 5-2-2010 by Vanitas]

reply to post by DraighNogrii


Hello again!
Not only do I think it is worth it - absolutely! - I have hinted to it several times.

I am cruising very different waters at the moment, so I am not really in the right frame of mind to tackle this subject again; I'll just refer you to some of my earlier messages in this thread (the latest one was in reply to Evantide's message, I think).

Having read so many fairy tales from all over the world I can't help but wonder: how on earth did peoples from all over the globe come up with the idea, in the first place?

It's not something to be dismissed lightly.





[edit on 5-2-2010 by Vanitas]

Originally posted by Vanitas
reply to post by BlueOrb

 

A military map - a Spezialkarte - would be especially useful.

Hmmmm....do you mean something like this one?

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/ee86e9e5d79b.jpg[/atsimg]


This is from the link you included.......Not that detailed, but (not very surprisingly), it does include some of the Untersberg churches, as i noticed during an all-too-brief scan of the map, and also the Salburger Hochthron. This is cropped from the original "Salzburg" map.

I'm surpised you never appended this yourself.....you must be like me.....have a great idea and then run out of time!

Ok, so it's not exactly a proper photo, but here is the Salburger Hochthron, as seen on Google Earth, with the associated "red stain" below and to the right.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/0594cd3202ab.jpg[/atsimg]

Not saying this is for certain, but it could possibly be the cave referred to as the "Iron Door". Of course, it could be the cave near to the Berchtesgadener Hochthron also. Or it could be neither.

I'm thinking that somewhere (more than likely in the book that Amazon won't deliver to me here ), there absolutely MUST be a list of caves, peaks, ravines, etc of the Untersberg, by name.....

....so that's another thing to put on my list of things to do......

Who needs time with eagle-eyed people like you around...?

I did peruse some of the collection (ATS logs would probably show I even replaced the original image with another one), but, yes, time - among other subjective factors - prevented me from going in-depth.

The military maps I remember admiring in my grandpapa's trunk were actually much, much, MUCH more detailed: they were so detailed it was (in retrospect) frightening to see! They had everything but the household utensils mapped!
(Or maybe I just didn't look closely enough!

)

But the one you plucked out is clearly useful enough for the purposes of this "investigation"!

I'm thinking that somewhere (more than likely in the book that Amazon won't deliver to me here ), there absolutely MUST be a list of caves, peaks, ravines, etc of the Untersberg, by name.....

I still think a Spezialkarte would be the safest bet - and possibly the easiest to get.
Perhaps White Eagle can tell us more about it.









[edit on 6-2-2010 by Vanitas]

For a bit of light relief, and some interesting general information, check out this page : www.summitpost.org...

Especially worthy of a look is the photo gallery - there are some great photos of the mountain.

Also, some good info regarding hiking up the mountain via various routes, which will be useful if any of us ever make it there (I know i definitely will, i'm just not sure when.......).

I particularly noted the mention of natural holes in the plateau itself, which are often covered by shrubs, and can descend up to 300m inside the mountain....perhaps these account for some of the "missing" people through the years?