Untersberg - The Mystery Mountain

reply to post by GodForbid


As per "Active Investigation": That is a MARVELOUS idea!!! I second the motion! An organised effort to investigate these things by the ATS membership would be certain to glean all manner of useful info! BRILLIANT!!!

Originally posted by zorgon

Originally posted by Byrd It appears that the UFO crowd in Germany is trying to remake their dwarves into Greys.

Either that or people back then called the Grays... Dwarves

It seems so, however I noticed in one account that they mentioned hair on a dwarf.
I don't know what to make of all of this, I'm just sayin'.
Certainly really, really interesting nonetheless.

reply to post by DraighNogrii


As far as I am concerned, this IS an active investigation.
What our friend Blue Orb, especially, is doing here is trying to uncover possible patterns underlying the construction on or around a "sacred" place, based on the idea that certain people who were there before us might have known something that we don't. And you can only do that by studying maps, legends, the history of the place.

Many TV teams walk around such places equipped with all sort of technology (because it's more "photogenic" than sitting at a table, poring over documents), but the truth is you cannot circumvent old-fashioned research like this.



[edit on 30-11-2009 by Vanitas]

reply to post by Vanitas


I couldn't agree more. Research such as this is the starting point for anything that may or may not happen in ther future.

Without a doubt, those responsible for the recently released documentary - as interesting as it was (and nicely filmed!) - can not possibly have carried out the level of research we have here, or they would surely have at least touched on it in the film.

To be honest, i think that as it stands currently, there is more than enough info that we have collectively gathered to spend at least a week on the ground, actually visiting these places and doing the on site research. (but that's not to say there isn't a whole lot more "out there" to discover)

I just wish i could do it. Probably best to leave such a visit until the spring now, as no doubt the area will be snowed in shortly (and i believe the Kehlsteinhaus is definitely closed at present until around march/april time. And of course there is the added problem of being about 5000km away.

And just to add - i made this post without referring at all to Google Earth. My therapy must be working.......one day at a time.......

Originally posted by BlueOrb


To be honest, i think that as it stands currently, there is more than enough info that we have collectively gathered to spend at least a week on the ground, actually visiting these places and doing the on site research. (but that's not to say there isn't a whole lot more "out there" to discover)

Absolutely!
The amount and quality of information from original research gathered here, especially in the past two months or so, seems to be unsurpassed.

And since you have obviously the passion and the right questions in mind, I hope you do get the opportunity to follow it through with field research.
(And I can see again eyes rolling... )

I find it necessary to emphasise this because I fear that the recent vogue of TV investigative (usually hour-long) "reports" on all sorts of "paranormal" phenomena may have distorted the expectations and the appreciation on the part of the general public of REAL, in-depth research.

reply to post by entermemo


Question per my own admitted ignorance:

Is there some reason that '___' would cause such IDENTICAL trends in these various "hallucinations"? According to my understanding, the nature of hallucinations does not lend itself well to the idea of such close similarities in such a wide variety of people.

I'm asking only for clarification of my own understanding.

reply to post by DraighNogrii


I see you have only got to page 22!? Long way to go, but lots more info to enjoy!

The effects on the pineal gland (source of '___') are touched on a little later in the thread. The Pineal gland is the regulator of the body clock, and is affected also by magnetism. This could be the source of "lost time", as the body's internal clock is knocked out of sync by the magnetism of the area affecting the pineal gland. As regards "hallucinations", i have no idea.

Originally posted by DraighNogrii
reply to post by entermemo

 

Question per my own admitted ignorance:

Is there some reason that '___' would cause such IDENTICAL trends in these various "hallucinations"? According to my understanding, the nature of hallucinations does not lend itself well to the idea of such close similarities in such a wide variety of people.

That's a very good question.

In my opinion, "hallucination" is just an umbrella term for many things that escape the usual limits of perceptional experience, meant to to cover the ignorance of those who cannot accept the limits of science as we know it today.

Indeed, how come people see exactly the same things (e.g. very defined and incredibly complicated patterns) when under the influence of certain substances?

Even if those visions were somehow a part of their - our - subconscious, that still wouldn't make those visions un-real in the sense that "hallucinations" are supposed to be; it would simply mean that certain states of mind, or substances, have the ability to bring out into the open certain constants in our collective unconscious (IF such a thing exists in the way that Jung, for example, envisioned it).
And if there are such constants, then by definition they cannot be "unreal" - or irrelevant to serious scientific exploration worth its name.

But there were and are many cases when "hallucinations" are indistinguishable from the surrounding reality, and the only thing asserting their un-real nature is the conviction that they are unreal.
(Such a case are the blobs, or whatever they were, that Smythe, a well-known mountaineer, saw during one of his expeditions. If you are interested in the story, there is a link in one of the messages in my - very brief - thread about the Mallory & Irvine expedition. The vision is mentioned in an interview with Smythe's grandson. OR you could just google for him, of course. )

Anyway, in my opinion many of the so-called "hallucinations" are simply the consequence of a mind unhindered by the usual constraints.








[edit on 1-12-2009 by Vanitas]

reply to post by Vanitas


HI!

I just thought I might mention that in biblical Hebrew each glyph represents not only a phonetic sound and number, but ALSO refers to a specific colour, musical note (i.e. "vibrational frequency") and astrological sign/planet (also has a sepheroth connotation in the study of Kabala). I thought it might be relevant in terms of all the mentions of colors and vibration-type stuff. Also in terms of "occult" ideas for the Nazis. Please forgive me if it's actually irrelevant.

reply to post by DraighNogrii


And it's very good that you mentioned it.

Personally, I am somewhat familiar with the Kabbalah; but I haven't given the sound/vibration aspect of it that much thought in this context.
And considering that everything is basically vibration it is certainly something to keep in mind.

reply to post by Vanitas


WOW! I really apologize for underestimating the incredible extent of work that really has been done here in term of "active investigation". (At the time i replied to that particular post, I hadn't managed to read very far at all yet.) This *IS* an active investigation, with an incredible yield of info. Thank you all VERY much for all the time and effort you have put into this. Very few subjects capture my interest this easily. If there is any way I can help, let me know (I am blessed with a great deal of "spare time", usually). My personal expertise lies along the lines of comparative theology.

reply to post by DraighNogrii


I get that now: you are going diligently through the thread, starting at the beginning, which is the right thing to do, of course, but so rare that I didn't even consider it...

Anyway, while I replied to your post, I was really referring to a more general mindset that is very common in this day and age (and often observed right here, on this site, too).

BTW, comparative theology might be useful in this context, at some point.

reply to post by Vanitas


Actually, with my background of comparatively studying world religion (most especially ANCIENT forms that include mythology and symbology) and also having researched "alternative" ideas along the lines UFO/Atlantis &ct. when I first began reading through this thread an awful LOT of correlations occured to me. As I read on, these correlation turned into a creepy sort of pattern, and further on, they developed into a downright SPOOKY picture(made all the more spooky by the perfect clarity of it). I don't want to get completely OT, so I probably aught not describe it here (it would take a LOT of space to explain, anywho) but it is based on my firm conviction that in cases of GLOBAL similarities in myth and folklore these similarities should be regarded as close to "gospel" (forgive the theological pun). It all came together in my mind as I read through this thread, and if I'm right in what I see, I now understand why there may be "conspiricies" to hide the truth of humanities past, present and future in in regards to archaeology, UFOlogy, and even the truth of myths. I also now believe that hiding this truth may, in fact, be the best idea.

Back to the topic at hand, however, @vanitas: indeed, science has rather recently discovered that the smallest (yet) found partical of matter is, in fact, a tiny bit of vibrating light (vibrations/frequencies). Also a fundamental teaching common to all paths of esoteric study is that physical matter is created by means of compound layers of dense frequencies or vibrations (the 10 veils hiding the light in Kabala, the 9 gates of the underworld of various ancient pagan cults, even the 12 gates of Heaven in Christianity). Whether you want to follow the road of science or religion, it all boils down to "everything is vibrations".

Per my own halfpence (I doubt it's worth 2 cents): One of the worldwide mythological similarities I view as "gospel" is the "little people" commonality. There is no culture, past or present, who has not had thier own version (usually even the details vary only slightly). Another commonality I see it that there is always, in all cultures, 2 types - benevolent and malevolent. Some entertain a third group whose disposition is determined by the "spiritual purity" of the human involved. In some cultures, over time the first two groups are combined into all of them being of the third disposition, but usually, the earliest stories involve the first two dinstinctions.

As per gnomes/dwarves=greys: I find it relevant that in the vast majority (if not all) of folklore concerning "wee folk" of whatever specificity, they are usually depicted as LESS evolved/civilized than even the humans of the era of the tale. There are references to them being barefoot, unshaven, "wild", and behaving in a notably uncivilized (or at the least, unsociable) manner. This, IMHO, seems incongruant with our understanding of the greys as MORE developed (at least technologically). (Might have been tuppenceworth, but who's weighing? LOL)

reply to post by DraighNogrii



I hope you have written down those correlations that occurred to you.
From personal experience I know such solo brainstorming can prove invaluable, and especially so if the person has a relatively wide scope of knowledge, like you seem to have.

As per gnomes/dwarves=greys: I find it relevant that in the vast majority (if not all) of folklore concerning "wee folk" of whatever specificity, they are usually depicted as LESS evolved/civilized than even the humans of the era of the tale. There are references to them being barefoot, unshaven, "wild", and behaving in a notably uncivilized (or at the least, unsociable) manner. This, IMHO, seems incongruant with our understanding of the greys as MORE developed (at least technologically).

I didn't know that. (But then, the only gnomes I was ever interested in, were the ones in "Snow White", when I was six or seven. )
However, right now it occurred to me that in the Germanic romantic imagery of the 19th century (drawing on a much older tradition, obviously) gnomes are represented as averse to technology, nostalgically longing for nature and life as they were before the industrial revolution.

Anyway, keep those thoughts coming - and don't forget to write them down.
For some reason, this thread has gone all but dormant - the "but" being Blue Orb, of course - but when it wakes up, it may need you.









[edit on 2-12-2009 by Vanitas]

reply to post by Vanitas


It's not dormant....just snoozing on the sofa for a while, I am sure!

Don't forget the post from Skyfloating way, way back, with the statues of the dwarves in the park in Salzburg (i'm too lazy to link it here, but it was way back in the "teens" pages of this thread, i think).

Dwarves are very much involved in the history/legend of the mountain - where this ties in to all the other information we have discovered since then is beyond me, if indeed there is any connection at all.

I personally think that there is so much to this story, that the various aspects cannot all possibly be linked, other than that they are all associated with, exist within, or happen in an area that without a doubt is a "special" place, in so many ways.

This thread won't die. I won't let it!

reply to post by BlueOrb


Well, of course, Skyfloating being the initiator (and MAJOR contributor) of this thread, it goes without saying that without him probably there would be no thread.

But since its teen age this thread has grown a beard and started taking prolonged naps, much like those mythical emperors that seem to be inhabiting Untersberg and other mountains of the region. And so...

This thread won't die. I won't let it!

Yeah, I think people are kinda counting on that...

I agree that the whole dimension (no pun intended) of the Untersberg mystery may never be cracked in its entirety – at least not in a demonstrable way.*

The problem, as I see it, is in gauging the true weight of folklore of each of the (many!) elements involved in thre myth that surrounds it, not to mention the purely physical aspects of the purported anomalies.

We don't even know WHAT exactly we are looking for.
That's why I believe that diligent collecting of all sorts of data - and even speculations - might be a very good idea.
Among all the chaff, there may very well be a few grains. ;-)



* Years ago I was researching an artist who lived many centuries ago. I developed a sort of intuitive connection with his personality and modus operandi (it probably sounds more kooky than it was ).

One night, I had an unusually vivid dream: in it, not only did I find out the exact date of the artist's birth (currently not even the year is known), but also saw a series of events and procedures that are in opposition to what is currently known about him – but would actually make perfect sense.
And even though I earnestly try, every now and then, to puncture that bubble of certainty that I carry from that day on, it doesn't work: I simply know that what I saw really was the truth.

The problem, of course, is... how do you cite this source of information in a peer-reviewed article?











[edit on 2-12-2009 by Vanitas]

Probably nothing, totally irrelevant - just adding to the "chaff"...

Opening 124

(Posted here in reference to the length of the tunnel and the shaft at the Kehlsteinhaus.)




[edit on 2-12-2009 by Vanitas]

Originally posted by Vanitas

Probably nothing, totally irrelevant - just adding to the "chaff"...

Opening 124

(Posted here in reference to the length of the tunnel and the shaft at the Kehlsteinhaus.)




[edit on 2-12-2009 by Vanitas]

ok..i may be the dullest knife in the drawer...but, opening 124 sounds like alot of nonsense to me. the choice of this type of sentence structure does not lend itself to be easily understood, nor particularly interesting or revealing.
i do agree that it would be beneficial to explore the tunnels of this mountain, but one would need substantial living supplies for an extended amount of time, and of course an array of electronic measuring equipment, coupled with extensive caving equipment. not an easy checklist to fill.

reply to post by jimmyx


I am not sure I understand correctly your objection.
If it's about the "title" of the hyperlink, I merely copied the title of the "chapter" (referring to the "openings" of Wisdom in the Kabbalah).

And while it may appear to have something to do with the physical "openings" of the tunnel and shaft, it does not (in my mind, that is). It simply refers to the established length of those features (which MAY be relevant to whatever we are looking for ).





[edit on 2-12-2009 by Vanitas]