PARA: Untersberg - The Mystery Mountain

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

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(Even more OT)


Now, now...
Let's not forget that most of what today is considered "general knowledge" about the so-called "Middle Ages" is a simplified construct by a series of writers from the Renaissance, re-constructed by writers of the 19th century - and all of them had their own "agendas".

Truths are seldom simple - and doubly so when we're talking about a continent's history during a period of almost 1000 years that has been relatively recently "homogenised" - artificially (and not a little tendentiously) - into a concoction called the "Middle Ages". And let's not forget what preceded it (because it's essential): widespread destruction of the existing social structures (including material sources of knowledge) and ethnic dispersion following the onslaught of nomadic hordes in Europe - which was already weakened by the protracted agony of the late Roman empire.

But already in the 8th-11th century there was a huge movement towards "reviving" the cultural traditions of the ancient world (not that they were all necessarily that great).

And the lengthy period we're talking here - 12th/14th century - saw a momentous soar in culture.

This is precisely the period when universities were springing all over Europe - and the student population was far more international than it is today (they often followed teachers - and teachers travelled).

It is also the period when the great cathedrals were made and fitted - using architectural innovations brought from the East by the crusaders.
Openness to other cultures' achievements - also evidenced by the intense activity of European translators (think Gerard of Cremona) of scientific and philosophical literature - can hardly be qualified as ignorance. It shows intensely dynamic thought and desire for improvement.

As they say: it takes one to know one.
An ignorant doesn't care for anything beyond his picket fence - and in the period we're talking about here, Europe was as internationalist as it goes.


Still, I suppose one should define "ignorance". If you mean the educational level of the "ordinary" people, what little direct evidence there is it seems to suggest they were - considered in the proper historical perspective - no more ignorant than the "average" teenager today. (Except they did not have the internet at their disposal.)

So most people didn't know how to read or write (as they didn't in the Antiquity), and the same was true for the Islamic/Arabic culture, even in its heyday. (Let's not even mention Byzantium.) As a rule, only leisurely gentlemen had the time to ponder and write down their lofty thoughts...
Most people would not have had the time - or the inclination - to read anyway, because of their daily work obligations. The social and economic structure was totally different than it is today - but that has nothing to do with "ignorance" in itself.









[edit on 4-8-2009 by Vanitas]

By ignorance, i judge it in this instance on two things:

- illiteracy. like you say, they didn't tend to read. They had work to do. William Shakespere's (spelling correct for the true, historical person) daughter was illiterate. How do you grow up under the obviously well cultured and brilliant Shakespere and be illiterate?

- much of "science" was considered vile by the RC church, and marginalized, for the most part. The knowledgebase was more of an underground movement. The information was reserved cryptically, as often outward expressions of too high a degree were deemed as inspired by satan. It was the forward march of Christianity that decimated the "pagan" society extant, and likely it was Christianity that kept them mired up until the pre-Rennaisance era you mention in the 14th/15th century.

I can wholly agree with you that the culture was not completely deviod of valuable learning. Only that it was greatly overshadowed by the anteChristian era Europe, not to mention the Arab lands (despite the burning of the Alexandrian library).

Great thread, just finished reading all 41 pages!

I don't think I missed it but no one seems to have looked closer at the inscription read by Lazarus "SVRGETSATUM". I found it interesting that the inhabitants of Untersberg used Latin and pointed this out to Lazarus. This shows an extensive understanding of human culture and learning, further supporting the possible connection between dwarves and greys. A quick look in the old Latin dictionary and "surget" is from the verb "to rise" and "satum" meaning "satire". My Latin is only to GCSE level and I'm sure there are more qualified people here to have a better look at this, declension etc.

I would also like to travel there and have a good look around, I don't fancy the caves though, I've virtually zero experience in such environments and don't like the idea of missing a few decades irrelevant of ageing.

An interesting take on the tales of gnomes, elves and dwarves, entirely plausible. With all the tales from other members regarding other mountains around the world with such similar stories suggests that our little friends may use them as hides, much as we do with animals. As for Uluru and Untersberg's similarities, I don't think it was a bad post SkyFloating, maybe a little straw clutching but not a bad post.

Great work and don't let the thread die!

reply to post by Sendran

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I don't know Latin (I only know the words that are the same in Portuguese, and they are many), so could you tell me why there is a "V" read as a "U" and a "U" read as a "U"?

Thanks.

reply to post by ArMaP

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I just used what was in the post, I see what you mean.

V, phonetically, is a W in classical Latin aswell as a U, I think it depends on it's position in the word. It was later on that they adopted the U to distinguish between the two different sounds. The middle ages saw the combination of the then VV into what we now have as W. It's been a long time so I maybe wrong!

As for the use of the two different letters here to mean the same, U, I can only guess it was a typo. If not, maybe the beings were trying to show how long they'd been at Untersberg? I honestly have no idea, if it's correct in it's recording then I'd say that it had meaning, a race of intelligent creatures would probably not make such an error in a language that is abundant in the buildings housing their various exit points.

What's your take on this mystery, do you go for the whole "dwarves equals greys" theory?

Edit: Bloody iPhone keyboard.

[edit on 6/8/2009 by Sendran]

reply to post by Sendran

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Thanks for the explanation, I do not remember seeing any "U" in Latin inscriptions, so I thought it strange.

And no, I don't think that the "dwarfs equals greys" theory explains the many European legends with dwarfs, mostly for two reasons.

First, I never like an explanation that uses as a base something unexplained, so saying that the old legend's dwarfs are today's greys does not explain a thing, it only replaces one unknown with another unknown, and that may be a big mistake, because if they are not the same thing then we can be loosing sight of a more interesting and/or revealing case (dwarfs) by replacing it with a case that may be an empty one.

The other reason is that the dwarfs from most legends were not depicted exactly like the greys, although there were some cases (I am using only my memory, so I have no references) in which the descriptions were similar, those were not usually considered dwarfs but some other thing, like little devils, for example.

There is one case in Portugal in which, in a remote (as far as we can have a remote region in a small country ) of central Portugal, in a mountain area (Serra da Malcata) in which the people saw what they called "mourinhos" (like the soccer trainer ), meaning "little Moors", to some beings that were sometimes seen in the woods, running and jumping. The description is more close to the grey's than to the dwarfs in this case.

reply to post by ArMaP

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Not a problem, I just hope it's correct.

I agree with your points, we shouldn't put all our eggs in one basket based on an assumption. You know what they say about assumption, it makes an ass out of you and umption. I must admit I do like the idea of a connection between greys and folklore, but you are right, we should not make concrete unsupported connections.

What is your subject of expertise? I wish those badges were topic specific.

Sendran.

Edit: Just noticed you can click on the badge, UFO's. Didn't know you could do that. Still think the badge should show which field you specialise in.

[edit on 7/8/2009 by Sendran]

So... August 16th is just around the corner.
Anyone going?

(I might be going. But, in all likelihood, I won't know for sure until an hour or so before departure... ;-))

reply to post by Vanitas

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Bit far for me, I'm afraid, but if i was anywhere near, i would definitely be going.

If you do go, head for the Mittagscharte, which is the V shape in the mountain, where the sun shines through at midday. Would be interesting to get a reading of the electromagnetivity as well.

More than likely the mountain will be covered in tourists, but if it is not, i would recommend finding a quiet spot, and sitting and see what happens, how you feel, etc.

And make sure you let us know when you arrive in Egypt!

That IS a mystery. (I didn't know that - thanks.)
Or maybe it isn't. I just hope master Shakespere wasn't one of those numerous people who thought education (other than the art of ironing, mending, butter-churning and pudding-making) is wasted on daughters...
But I wouldn't be TOO surprised if he were.



Absolutely! Perhaps not in the era ("High Gothic") we're talking here (LATER EDIT: you said quite clearly you meant ANTE-Christian Europe - blame it on the heat that's gone to my head... ), but certainly until the 9th-10th century. (If anyone reading this cares to look at the great exhibition catalogue "El Andalus", I think they will find their time and money well spent.)
There are few people I know who admire their culture as much as I do, believe me.





[edit on 12-8-2009 by Vanitas]

reply to post by BlueOrb

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Thank you, Blue Orb.
This information just earned you a postcard from Alexandria - I promise!




[edit on 12-8-2009 by Vanitas]

Hi !

Just wanted to let you know that I am going to travel to Untersberg in 8 hours^^.

I will stay till sunday morning to be sure to not miss anything haha

...

we'll start from vienna to Königsee
za000028.host.inode.at...


the specific location where i plan to go...
www.panoramio.com...


we'll stay there over night in the woods until saturday August 15 ... at lunch we will go directly to untersberg / Grödig /St. Leonhard

location 1


if we find some time we'll visit the Hallthurm
hallthurm google

there we should find a "hidden entry" maybe?! ^^

well on august 15 we'll try to stay in the woods on the feet of untersberg calling for some kaiser karl or ghosts or dwarfs or any time portals ^^

anyways.. i found it would be a good idea to post this in the case you don't hear anything from us again ^^

otherwise i'll put kinda report afterwards

ill just have my nokia n95 cam with me... and my blackberry...

hope to write back soon cheers thx for your attention ^^

[edit on 13-8-2009 by flashguru]

[edit on 13-8-2009 by flashguru]

To everyone going this weekend: Im Looking forward to your pictures and experiences!!!!!

reply to post by Skyfloating

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Me too! I'm a little bit jealous that i won't be going! Hope to get a good report posted here soon! Good Luck!

This is very interesting indeed. There is actually a similar case in Athens, Greece, a cave on Mount Penteli, called "Ntaveli's Cave". Strong magnetic fields, disappearances and paranormal activity had been reported several times at that location, and what is interesting is that, apart from an ancient place of worship, the caves were used for secret military activities and were sealed off to the public until 1983.

OT

There is GORGEOUS fog enveloping the Untersberg today.
To see it, you can go to this wonderful live webcam:

Untersberg LIVE Webcam

Be sure to click on the UPPER RIGHT link, where it says:
Lifecam (sic) Untersberg Aussicht.

And don't forget to use the controls!

reply to post by Vanitas

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@ Vanitas - Did you go to the Untersberg then?

If so, how did you get on?

Would be nice to hear from White Eagle again too - I belive he is a "local", from Bad Reichenhall.

reply to post by BlueOrb

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Hey, Blue Orb!

The answer is: yes... and no.
I was physically there - but it was more or less as if somebody who landed at Buenos Aires airport (and stayed there) said s/he visited Buenos Aires...

All in all, it was a nice day, but absolutely NOT what I had in mind.


***

I don't expect people to be in the mood for jeremiads, so you'd better ignore what follows.
For those who think they really want to know (because they can't imagine how infuriating and ultimately boring the story really is), here's the long story made... just a bit less long.

I usually travel alone, if I can help it, but this time I decided to go with a relative of mine who is always fun company (and an actual Alpine mountain climber, so mountains of any description immediately appeal to her).

Unfortunately, we decided to take the offer of a third person - a man whom we both respect a lot, intellectually, and who is also interested in all sorts of things - who offered to drive us there in his car. He had never heard about Untersberg, but that was no problem.

I had planned the trip like this: we stay three nights, preferably somewhere in the immediate vicinity of Untersberg, so we can have two whole days to explore the area. (My cousin and I were both familiar with Salzburg, so decided to forgo the town itself this time.)

I thought the first day we would explore the mountain as much as we can - and, Blue Orb, you may be glad to hear I actually heeded your advice: I did include the Mittagsscharte in my plans - and the next day we could either return or explore the wider surroundings.

Well, en route (and not before) the good professor - who was driving us there - told us he could only stay TWO nights. Furthermore, he had already made reservations. (In Salzburg itself, where else?)

The next day he took over entirely. It seems he had heard the weather forecast was "iffy" - and he absolutely wanted to visit Kehlstein, too. (Did I mention he taught history...? )

In principle, that was perfectly all right with me: I adore the conjunction of nature + history. To me, it's ideal. But in view of the limited time we had I was a bit worried that we wouldn't have enough time for Untersberg - the main destination of our trip, as far as I was concerned.

On the other hand, knowing that the "Teehaus" on the Kehlstein is so small, I was hoping we could still devote most of our time to Untersberg.

And we would have... hadn't the good professor insisted we CLIMB the Kehlstein - even though the elevator is one of the main points of interest of the whole site. I was intent on riding in that elevator - and I did. My cousin and the professor climbed... And climbed... and climbed.

To make an already overextended account short: my visit to the Untersberg was reduced to riding in the funicular and then having a - well deserved! - frustration smoke on the terrace. (I suppose you could say I was literally fuming... )
And while I did enjoy immense, dizzying, almost orgiastic pleasure up there, with that wind in my hair, there is little in the account of my experience that would justify inclusion in this thread.

(Oh, and did I mention he had reserved tickets for a theatre performance in Salzbug that evening...?
I didn't go, in case you're wondering.)


P.S. Regarding the photographs: I didn't take any; my cousin did, but haven't heard from her yet.


















[edit on 20-8-2009 by Vanitas]

reply to post by Vanitas

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Thats why I´d always either go alone or with like-minded. Exploraing the area in terms of this thread requires a special, undistracted state of mind.

Nice try anyway

I´ll give the mountain a try very soon and post some photos here.

[edit on 20-8-2009 by Skyfloating]

reply to post by Skyfloating

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I hear you, believe me...!
As I said, I ALWAYS travel alone - well, 98% of the time, and have done so ever since I was sixteen.

And on the rare occasions when I don't, I soon remember why...