Untersberg - The Mystery Mountain

Here´s the legendary reference I found to Helfenburg (warning: German Language): Link

Hi,

"Juvavia" is not the correct name, rather, it was an abbreviation of "Castrum Juvavum", which was the full name of the roman settlement that existed in the same place as Salzburg does today.

Julius Caesar is credited for Juvavum's existence, even though the romans just took over a celtic settlement that already existed there around the year 15 A.D. Searching for "castrum juvavum" will yield more relevant results than "Juvavia" or "Juvavum" on their own.

The stories about Juvavum sinking into the moor in the course of one night are purely speculative, and were written later. They also tell of rising corruption and sinful behaviour, and of God's wrath that was visited upon them in return, which to me smells of catholic propaganda.

There have been several excavations and finds of ancient roman implements and tools in modern times (20th century).

The moors themselves have existed for a long, long time, and are actively "mined" as well, meaning the soil there is used for gardening and building purposes. Most of that area has since been dried out and used as normal building land, the moors are rather small these days, but still exist.

But this is probably just folklore........isn't it....?!

There is no such thing as "JUST folklore".
There is always a seed of truth in every myth and legend.

And what's interesting (although not really surprising) is that, while the circumstances may be totally different from the actual event or series of events, the CORE "message" of myths and legends is usually surprisingly accurate!

reply to post by SETILunatic

awesome that you're going to this place

while you're there, see if you can pick up some rocks to see what the mountain is made of, especially around the magnetic anomaly locations.
Polished marble from Untersberg mountain looks like this apparently.




from here

mmmm purple and dark.

has anyone looked at magnetic properties of marble, amethyst or quartz?

Originally posted by SETILunatic
Hi,

finally managed to fit a trip to Salzburg into my schedule for next week-end. I'll be visiting relatives there on Saturday and plan to go to Königssee on Sunday.

So, some pictures and my "feel" of the area close to the church on the half-isle will be forthcoming soon after that. I'll also take some pictures of the Untersberg from various angles.
[edit on 21.9.08 by SETILunatic]

if the weather is good i also go to this magic area at saturday. i go to the top of untersberg accompanied by a tv-team for a special documentation.

one advice for going to Königssee. when you stay at bartholomä ask after
chappel of johannes and paul in the near. there is a forgotten spa and mineral spring about 50 meters before the chappel on the east-siede of the wooden bridge.
www.kraftort.org...

and the most interesting place is the spa at the almbachklamm:
www.kraftort.org...

have a good trip!

reply to post by white eagle


Danke White Eagle, wollte Dich schon anschreiben, aber man darf hier erst ab 10 Posts private Nachrichten verschicken, also könntest Du nicht antworten. Werde mir Deine Tips ansehen. Interessant, daß Du auch am selben Wochenende unterwegs bist, am Samstag habe ich allerdings leider wenig bis keine Zeit, sonst würde ich vielleicht Zaungast spielen wollen.

Thanks White Eagle, wanted to contact you already, but on ATS you may only send private messages when you have more than 10 posts, so you probably couldn't answer yet. Thanks for the tips, I will check them out. Coincidentally, you're going the same weekend as I am, but my Saturday is almost fully planned out, I'd be interested in seeing what you do there, but most probably won't have any time.

reply to post by FlakeMaker

Originally posted by FlakeMaker
reply to post by SETILunatic

 

while you're there, see if you can pick up some rocks to see what the mountain is made of, especially around the magnetic anomaly locations.

Basically Untersberg is "made of" chalk stone. Spec. from the northside it's said their extract the Untersberg "marmor"...
sources :

Untersberger marmor, Wiki

Untersberg.net/marmor

This link to the Untersberg.net is a allround guide about, almost everything. Also includes a "Geology: World of rocks" section.

Untersberg FAQ







[edit on 23-9-2008 by flymetothemoon]

Basque Mythology

Pre-Christian belief seems to have centered around a female goddess called Mari. A number of place-names contain her name and would suggest these places were related to worship of her such as Anbotoko Mari who appears to have been related to the weather. According to one tradition, she traveled every seven years between a cave on Mount Anboto and one on another mountain (the stories vary); the weather would be wet when she was in Anboto, dry when she was in Aloña, or Supelegor, or Gorbea. One of her names, Mari Urraca possibly ties here to a historical Navarrese princess of the 11th and 12th century, with other legends giving her a brother or cousin who was a Roman Catholic priest. So far the discussions about whether the name Mari is original and just happened to coincide closely with the Christian name María or if Mari is an early Basque attempt to give a Christian veneer to pagan worship have remained speculative. Mari's consort is Sugaar. This chthonic couple seem to bear the superior ethical power and also the power of creation and destruction. It's said that when they gathered in the high caves of the sacred peaks, they engendered the storms. These meetings typically happened on Friday nights, the day of historical akelarre or coven. Mari was said to reside in Mount Anboto; periodically she crossed the skies as a bright light to reach her other home at mount Txindoki. Legends also speak of many and abundant genies, like jentilak (equivalent to giants), lamiak (equivalent to nymphs), mairuak (builders of the cromlechs or stone circles, literally Moors), iratxoak (imps), sorginak (witches, priestess of Mari), etc. Basajaun is a Basque version of the Woodwose. There is a trickster named San Martin Txiki ("St Martin the Lesser"). It has been shown that some of these stories have entered Basque culture in recent centuries or as part of Roman superstitio. It is unclear whether neolithic stone structures called dolmens have a religious significance or were built to house animals or resting shepherds. Some of the dolmens and cromlechs are burial sites serving as well as border markers. The jentilak ('Giants'), on the other hand, are a legendary people which explains the disappearance of a people of Stone Age culture that used to live in the high lands and with no knowledge of the iron. Many legends about them tell that they were bigger and taller, with a great force, but were displaced by the ferrons, or workers of ironworks foundries, until their total fade-out. They were pagans, but one of them, Olentzero, accepted Christianity and became a sort of Basque Santa Claus. They gave name to several toponyms, as Jentilbaratza.

reply to post by white eagle


Is the TV-Documentation related to what we are talking about here, or is it something entirely different?

Scholary sources claim that dwarves can only be found in Nordic and Germanic Mythology, but thats not true.

Similar beings can be found all over the world, they just have different names.

And some even have similar names:

dhvaras

Thats an ancient indian word referring to "evil fairies" or "cave demons" in Hindu Mythology.

reply to post by SETILunatic


The weekend has come and gone and Im curious to find out if you were indeed in the area and maybe even have some reports and pictures for us...

Indeed I have been there and do have images - however, it took about 4 hours to put it all together, so there was no way to get it done yesterday - I arrived back home at Vienna around midnight.

Here goes - due to this being very image-heavy, I've put it somewhere else as to not clutter the thread.

Annotated photo diary of my trip

Clicking on any image opens that image in full size. Some are contrast-enhanced or cropped, no other editing.

It's pretty basic, and my cam's pretty lame. Still, some interesting images are there. Mainly, the ones inside the chapel featuring the all-seeing eye and various other well-known insignia, and two other places - the spot inside the forest that was fenced off (it was about 100m into the forest, pretty tough to spot), and the iron-grated hole on the tiny island near the end of the pics under the statue.

The alignment of the whole place is also interesting to me - on the one hand, it points at Watzmann very directly (St. Bartholomä), on the other hand, the chapel inside the forest is pretty exactly along that line. 90° to the right points very directly at Untersberg, though it is not visible from that vantage point.

As to my "feel" of the place - I will have to go back there and investigate a bit more closely, and, especially, take more time to do so. I arrived at St. Bartholomä around 3:30 p.m., much later than intended. The more time I spent there, close to the chapel and inside the forest, the more my body seemed to feel different - a sense of being aware of each hair individually, if that makes sense. Very comparable to some substance-induced sensations, though I don't have any experience with '___'. It felt as if there was an invisible rope attached to the base of my skull that was making me lighter, pulling me up, anchored somewhere inside the lower rear part of my skull, tough to explain. It wasn't very intense, but as I said, I didn't spend much time there.

I could not find the "Fieberbründl" that White Eagle posted about, and the locals didn't seem to know either. I'll have to ask White Eagle for more exact directions.

Still, as I said, I will have to go back there and spend at least a full day. There's even a place called the "Eiskapelle" (Ice chapel) there, it's at the foot of Watzmann. A 50m shield of ice has remained there even in summer, and there is a cavern inside the ice, though they say that you can't go in because it could cave in.

Oh, and: no dwarves or anything of the sort. Everything did seem extra-vivid, though.

[edit on 29.9.08 by SETILunatic]

reply to post by SETILunatic


Beautiful Pictures...and a few interesting mysteries as well.

That is not the fence I saw though. The fence I saw was old and rusty and higher. But maybe things have changed....its been years since Ive been there.

The door/rock looks pretty old. I wonder when it was built.

Now...that grate on the little island really is intriguing. I saw that little island on the ferry a few times but never detected that.

I agree with the "vivid" feeling around St. Bartholomae.

Thanks a lot for sharing!

[edit on 29-9-2008 by Skyfloating]

Some of your most interesting:

reply to post by SETILunatic

Welcome back
such beautiful images !!! It must have been a great experience to be there... The images from the chapel are spec. Noticed the "eye"...
Really understand why you want to go back there and spent some more time... And thanks a lot for share all the images

reply to post by Skyfloating

WOW!!! this pictures are so interesting
and the place is intriguing.It must be full of stories.
What is exactly the name of it?
and thanks for sharing

Originally posted by valefc
reply to post by Skyfloating

 

WOW!!! this pictures are so interesting
and the place is intriguing.It must be full of stories.
What is exactly the name of it?
and thanks for sharing

These are pictures posted by SETI-Lunatic in his last post.

And the area is the Untersberg area...the topic of this thread

reply to post by Skyfloating

To clarify - this image


was taken about 60m inside the forest, there was no path leading there. It was also the only place that had concrete walls anywhere I could see, which I thought significant. Running water could be heard through the door. I only saw it because I followed the creek near the chapel upstream along its banks. The Fieberbründl was supposed to be close, White Eagle posted, so I thought since it's a spring, it should empty into this creek. There were too many streams there to follow, so I eventually gave up, since I had only limited time til the last boat back left.

The grated hole on the small island kind of stood out, I noticed it on leaving the docks to go, but didn't get the camera ready in time. I thought the boat would pass the island on the other side coming back and I would not be able to take the pics, but as it is, the part near the landing dock is very shallow and has only one narrow path deep enough for the boats, so they took the same way back as out. Will have to find out what the statue is about - you can rent a rowboat, there were no "do not enter" or "do not land here" signs I could see, so I guess you could go there. Will do that next time.

[edit on 29.9.08 by SETILunatic]

reply to post by SETILunatic



Very beautiful!
Thank you.

The statue you mention in the last post, is it the one with a "beret" (stone, Baroque)?
If so, it looks very much like a depiction of St John of Nepomuk, a very popular saint, often seen near water, like on bridges (e.g. in Prague). I think he was the patron saint against drowning - I am not sure, but it shouldn't be difficult to find out.

As to the "eye" in the chapel someone else mentioned, it is of course a standard component of Baroque (and earlier) ecclesiastic iconography.

Thanks again for such a wonderful photo-travelogue!

I cropped two of the originals that have the statue - sadly, like I posted, my camera is not the best, and detail leaves a bit to be desired, especially since these were taken around sunset at 6:45 p.m., low light makes cheap sensors deliver grainy or out of focus pics (I am also not the best photographer, obviously).





Not sure whether you agree, but to me it looked more like a crown than a beret, it was more clearly visible to the naked eye than to my camera. Will have to look it up or ask the next time.

[edit on 29.9.08 by SETILunatic]